Was Adam a Calvinist?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

T…P: First of all thank you for making me think this through.

HP: I sure like that attitude. We both should be grateful the time others put into posts, yes, even when they criticize what we say. It helps us think things through. Thank you as well for your input and forcing me to think things through.

T…P: Though man was created as an eternal being he seemingly had no access to heaven in his terrestrial form for God came and walked with Adam in the cool of the evening.

HP: I fail to see that established at all. We may be mortal, but we are spiritual as well. Adam possessed mortality but was living soul created to fellowship eternally with God even before the fall. He was doing just that even though still not in a glorified body. It does not take a glorified body for the soul to exist in an eternal state.

t..p: I would surmise that man had no position before God in heaven but had standing before God on earth.

HP: There is not a shred of evidence to substantiate such a separation of our standing before God. Either we are for Him or against Him. Either we are one with Him or we are not. We may not have our glorified bodies, but we are either in the Lambs Book of Life or we are not.

t..p: As an eternal terrestrial being who fell, Adam (and you and I through Adam) lost our standing before an Almighty and Holy God and we were no longer justified to stand before God for we were no longer innocent and pure.

HP: There is again no evidence to support that notion either IMO. Everything clearly point to the physical life as created temporal, on a temporal and finite planet for a limited time frame of existence. There is no such thing as the physical to be eternal. This mortal MUST put on immortality.

 

[BobRyan]

What is strange to me is that if we are restored to the life of Adam before the fall, and it is obvious that in such a life not only did the possibility of falling exist, but in actuality it occurred, how could anyone say that once we receive such a hope of life that it would be impossible to be able to loose it or fail to keep it?

Indeed.

Lucifer "lost it"

Adam "Lost it"

And mankind today is never reference in this way "Immortal man" or "immortal soul" so when we are saved we are "born AGAIN" but are not placed in superior relationship to God than Adam for "NOW we see in a glass DARKLY" but Adam saw "face to face".

NOW we walk by faith - THEN Adam walked by sight.

NOW we are separated (in many respects) from God as Christs said "I GO To prepare a place for you and if I GO I will also COME again" John 14. And we wait "With groaning" according to Paul for that day.

But Adam HAD that day - walking in the garden with Christ the Creator from the very start!

There is no way to equate our pre-glorifed pre-rapture decaying state of 2Cor 5:1-3 that we are longing to LEAVE - to a "better than Adam condition".

The fact of Adam's fall and the fact of the Romans 11 warning (being taken OUT of the vine of Christ) and the John 15 warning "taken out of the vine of christ - withered dead and burned in the fire" and the Matt 18 warning of "forgiveness revoked" and the 2Tim 2 warning of "Denied by Christ" etc all point to the same idea of "persevering" and not falling as did Adam in terms of choosing rebellion against God.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR:Lucifer "lost it” Adam "Lost it"
And mankind today is never reference in this way "Immortal man" or "immortal soul" so when we are saved we are "born AGAIN" but are not placed in superior relationship to God than Adam for "NOW we see in a glass DARKLY" but Adam saw "face to face".

HP: Was Adam created immortal? I say only in a spiritual sense. Adam was created as a mortal physical man, with an immortal soul. I am created as a mortal man, with an immortal soul. Angels are created immortal period are they not? Agree or disagree?

 

[J. Jump]

hope of life

This is part of the problem. You are still seeing everlasting life (eternal salvation) as a hope. It is not a hope, but a reality once you are saved. It's not a possibility, but a certainty.

As long as you cling to eternal salvation as a hope you will not find security until you take your last breath as a believing person.

But the Bible says that you don't have to hope, but you can know that your eternal destiny is set.

 

[BobRyan]

HP: Was Adam created immortal? I say only in a spiritual sense. Adam was created as a mortal physical man, with an immortal soul. I am created as a mortal man, with an immortal soul. Angels are created immortal period are they not? Agree or disagree?

When you find a text that says "you have an immortal soul" read it to me.

When you find a text that says "Angels are immortal" read it to me.

Col 1 says that Christ "sustains ALL life" by the explicit exertion of His divine power.

1Tim 6 says "God alone posses immortality".

But the bottom line for Adam is that HE had access to the Tree of Llife and SO will we once we are in heaven and have access to the Tree of Life that is in the New Jerusalem "above".

 

[BobRyan]

Colossians 1 says we are "saved in Hope" - hope of eternal life?

"And in the age to come - eternal life".

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: When you find a text that says "you have an immortal soul" read it to me.

HP: 2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Immortality has more than one definition. We are not immortal in the same sense as God is. God possesses no principle of corruption or alteration in Him and has existed from eternity past, having no beginning as well as no end. Just the same, we are immortal in the sense of having life destined to endure throughout eternity. The very definition of the word ‘soul’ speaks to the immortality of the human spirit implanted within us by God.

BR: When you find a text that says "Angels are immortal" read it to me.

HP: God has not closed our minds off to Scripture and Scripture alone. He has given us the abilities to reason, and draw conclusions as to many things not implicitly stated in Scripture. Show me a Scripture that says they do not possess immortality in the sense of life everlasting or the quality of life that exist for eternity. Believe as you will, and I will do the same.

BR: Col 1 says that Christ "sustains ALL life" by the explicit exertion of His divine power.

HP: So we are sustained for eternity by the power of Christ that created us to live forever. How does that disprove that we are indeed immortal, in the sense of eternal life?.

BR:: 1Tim 6 says "God alone posses immortality".

HP: That is true in a sense, but man has been given an eternal existence through Christ via our creation, when He gave to man a living soul.

BR: But the bottom line for Adam is that HE had access to the Tree of Llife and SO will we once we are in heaven and have access to the Tree of Life that is in the New Jerusalem "above".

HP: What does that have to do with the question concerning the immortality of the soul? Those in heaven will be with Christ, partaking of Him. Those that have been given a living soul, but do not have access to the Tree of Life will indeed be living eternally also, but apart from Christ in an eternal hell.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HP: Here are three other verses that speak directly to the soul of man as being made immortal.

Ro 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[BobRyan]

HP: Here are three other verses that speak directly to the soul of man as being made immortal.

Ro 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

I agree that we do have texts saying that in the future we will be "made" immortal. Just not that we are today.

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
BR: When you find a text that says "you have an immortal soul" read it to me.

HP: 2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Are you saying that though we are not born immortal - we are made immortal when we are saved "through the Gospel"?

I did not know that anyone believed that -

we are immortal in the sense of having life destined to endure throughout eternity. The very definition of the word ‘soul’ speaks to the immortality of the human spirit implanted within us by God.

When you speak of life for all eternity - do you mean "we" the saved or "we humans saved AND those that are lost"??

If you mean that the lost "have life for all eternity" then you need a text that promises the lost eternal life.

But I would just as easily accept one that says "man is immortal" or "our soul is immortal" or "God bless your immortal soul" etc.

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
BR: When you find a text that says "Angels are immortal" read it to me.

HP: God has not closed our minds off to Scripture and Scripture alone. He has given us the abilities to reason, and draw conclusions as to many things not implicitly stated in Scripture. Show me a Scripture that says they do not possess immortality

That method has never worked.

"Until you show me that the Bible says Angels are not green - they are green. Until you show me that the Bible says frogs don't have immortal souls they DO have immortal souls. Until you show me that mankind does NOT have an immortal soul when we are converted we DO get immortal souls at conversion".


Just can't make that kind of argument work.

But I have to concur with your argument above - that the case must be made outside of the Bible because we don't actually have an "immortal soul" or "immortal angel" texts.

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
BR:: 1Tim 6 says "God alone posses immortality".

HP: That is true in a sense, but man has been given an eternal existence through Christ via our creation, when He gave to man a living soul.

Then man IS immortal NOT "through the gospel" but by creation - and all the texts saying that we are MORTAL "Mortal man" etc are wrong simply because we can presume that we must have been made immortal!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

"He who has the Son, has life" - nobody or nothing else has life - no 'soul' in itself; no angel, no 'god'; no sinner - ONLY sinners who were graced to "have Christ".

 

[BobRyan]

"He who has the Son, has life" - nobody or nothing else has life - no 'soul' in itself; no angel, no 'god'; no sinner - ONLY sinners who were graced to "have Christ".

Hey I think I agree with GE on something!

Colossians 1 says that Jesus is the sustainer of all life - we don't have it "in ourselves" and neither does Satan.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Hey I think I agree with GE on something!

Colossians 1 says that Jesus is the sustainer of all life - we don't have it "in ourselves" and neither does Satan.

Hey Bob, don't rejoice too quickly!
If Christ be the Life-Giver as well as Sustainer - surely you must be a Calvinist!

 

[BobRyan]

In the context above - I claim that Satan is alive and "he knoweth that he has but a short time" to live - Rev 12.

Is that where you are going?