Was Adam a Calvinist?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Brother Bob: I have no problem whatsoever with the way you explain if Adam had not of eaten. I agree he was free to eat of all the trees except the tree of knowledge but the Bible is silent whether he ate of the Tree of Life.

HP: I suppose the real crux of this whole issue we are currently discussing is whether or not one can be right with God without having eternal life. I see Adam as before the fall right with God in a state of holiness and obedience. For one to deny that in that state he was not in possession of eternal life is to me a simply not reasonable or according to Scripture.

The idea, that man, in this present world in possession of a hope of eternal life, cannot fall from that state and come under the condemnation of the law, is beyond the scope of the nature of salvation. For one to assume that any future acts of disobedience are literally already paid for simply circumvents the “sword” of repentance you obviously believe in. I maintain that no man can have assurance of sin forgiven apart from sincere repentance and faith. For one to entertain a hope of eternal life, while possessing an evil conscience, is simply nothing short of presumptuously believing in forgiveness apart from repentance, an unscriptural idea at best, eternally dangerous at worst.

Please do not read into this in any way that I am criticizing a personal belief you have represented. I am unsure how you feel in many areas. I am just addressing the issues as I see them, and you happen to be so kind as to be responding. I am sure I have much to learn from your thoughts. God has taken you down some roads and revealed to you some things I have yet to travel or understand. I am grateful for the testimony you have, that God is sufficient for every trial and circumstance. I am also grateful for your clear stand on the necessity of heartfelt repentance and a holy walk before the Lord.

 

[Brother Bob]

2 Timothy, chapter 4

[/i]18: And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

I believe the Lord is able to keep us from falling back into the old ways before Salvation but not only me believes that but all of our churches and correspondences.

I also do not believe that every sin you commit after Salvation is already covered. He said that your sins would be cast into the sea. Now if you do sin again you have an advocate with God, but if you sin a sin unto death then according to the scriptures to renew such a one again is impossible, so I would rather believe they had never been saved.

For sure if someone sins again after Salvation they must repent and get forgiveness of that sin and if they don't and are a child of God they will suffer the rod of chastement but if it were possible to sin a sin unto death the Scripture says I would not say to even pray for that person again.

That is why I would rather believe if a person lets say, ran off with a young girl and left wife and family. I would rather believe he was mistaken in his salvation to start with than to believe he had tasted of the good fruits of the Lord and fell for he is gone for ever according to my belief.

I am long from being perfect HP and I thank you for your respect but I sure have my faults but there are certain things I just will not do. If I ever did one of those things I would go to the church and tell them to remove me from their membership and start on the road to repentance and hope I got it right this time before I die.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Bb: ….start on the road to repentance and hope I got it right this time before I die.

HP: Amen! Our attitude should be and remain to be quick to seek forgiveness and to repent humbly before the Lord, keeping short accounts on sins or shortcomings, seeking forgiveness quickly as the Holy Spirit prods us. What good would it do us to find out in the end we were deceived? I am sure you, as well as I, would rather error on the side of caution than to risk those words, “Depart from me ye that work iniquity. I never knew you!”

It will not be asked of us, “Do you have your theology all in proper order?” But it will be asked of us, “Are your hands clean and is your heart pure?” Oh Lord, may we be found to have clean hands and a pure heart!

 

[BobRyan]

HP: I suppose the real crux of this whole issue we are currently discussing is whether or not one can be right with God without having eternal life. I see Adam as before the fall right with God in a state of holiness and obedience. For one to deny that in that state he was not in possession of eternal life is to me a simply not reasonable or according to Scripture.

If you are trying to protect God from the "eternal life" problem - relax it has already been done by God.


1 Tim 6
15 which He will bring about at the proper time--He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.


Col 1
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Satan himself can not exist one second longer without Christ making it happen - God the Son is the "sustainer" of all!

This argument about God not giving Adam eternal life is missing this point.

No life can exist without Christ sustaining it. that is true before the fall AND now and for all eternity.

Adam was loved and in the family of God - and he fell into sin. Condemned to the 2nd death, lake of fire, hell. He really really "needed" salvation.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: If you are trying to protect God from the "eternal life" problem...

HP: And what do you see as the eternal life ‘problem?’

 

[BobRyan]

Some argue that WE have been given eternal life so no matter what the bible says (about denied by Christ, forgiveness revoked, cast out of the vine of Christ, cast into the fire) WE can not lose it. (OSAS).

They then suppose that Adam was different - had no eternal life and so there was the one case where a family member loved by God COULD fall!

But if God gave Adam the same restored life we have or he got it through the tree of life - then the fact of HIS fall becomes a very real warning to us that WE TOO can fall. The idea is that if God GAVE Adam real life as we have in the New Birth then God "would be stuck with Adam EVEN if Adam falls" no possibility of needing redemption once he is IN

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

What is strange to me is that if we are restored to the life of Adam before the fall, and it is obvious that in such a life not only did the possibility of falling exist, but in actuality it occurred, how could anyone say that once we receive such a hope of life that it would be impossible to be able to loose it or fail to keep it?

 

[Brother Bob]

HP;
I can only speak for what we teach in our churches and that is before the Church was put on the inside of a man and God seeks to worship Him in Spirit and truth man could fall as they did over and over before the coming of Christ. Now, under this New Covenant we have the Holy Spirit dwelling within us and is our keeper and will not let us go so far as to be lost. In other words we are kept by the power of God, man is the same for he has not changed but then the Holy Spirit was on the outside and did not dwell within the individual. peace.

 

[LeBuick]

HP;
I can only speak for what we teach in our churches and that is before the Church was put on the inside of a man and God seeks to worship Him in Spirit and truth man could fall as they did over and over before the coming of Christ. Now, under this New Covenant we have the Holy Spirit dwelling within us and is our keeper and will not let us go so far as to be lost. In other words we are kept by the power of God, man is the same for he has not changed but then the Holy Spirit was on the outside and did not dwell within the individual. peace.

All, have you ever noticed this story in the Acts of the Apostles? It's about believers baptized but had yet to receive the Holy Spirit.

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

I ask because this thread has turned toward saying because I go to Church, Because I was Baptized, Because I made my confession and repented of my sins that the person is saved. Love is the only symbol of salvation or did I miss something?

 

[Brother Bob]

That was a time of transition when some were repenting Jews, and also a time of turning to the Gentiles. All Gentiles received the Holy Ghost baptism before they were baptized in the water. So joining the church, is words we use, but God has to add you to the church and the only way in, is to believe repent and be baptized, and that is the Holy Ghost baptism. The water baptism gives you a seat in the brick and mortar part of the church and answers a good conscious towards God. peace.

 

[thjplgvp]

Re: my two cents


I have read the first 7 pages of this post and saw nowhere were the question was answered if Adam was once saved always saved.

But after reading not all but those few I offer this view.

Adam did not need eternal life for his life was eternal because it came from God not as a gift but as part of the original creation.

Eternal life is a gift first and foremost. As a gift it was not given until needed and it was not needed at creation but after the fall. God breathed into man and he became a living soul designed by God to live eternally. But not in heaven Paul clearly states that there are different bodies and mans is not celestial. For man to live in heaven requires a miraculous change prompted and empowered by God Almighty.

Satan not only practiced his subtlety on Eve but Adam as well as is testified in scripture when Satan said “ye shall be as gods” plural. Eve took of the fruit and gave to Adam with her.

The question regarding the ‘tree of life’ is to incorrectly associate a tree and its fruit with the provision of eternal life as supplied by Jesus Christ. Would man have been truly happy had he been given the option to live a sinful self indulgent life as an immortal? If man can not find happiness in 70 years what makes us think we could find it in 7000? Since wickedness is born in the heart of a child and the heart is deceitful above all things was it not God’s mercy that removed the tree and not his justice?

Eternal life through anything other than Jesus Christ would not reinstate our justification before God. What good would it be to be immortal if we could not regain our righteous standing before God?

Truly this is not a Calvinism vs Armenian thread IMO it is a problem of justification and our completeness in Christ. Not by works which we have done (I picked the fruit).

Just my thoughts I will back out now.


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[LeBuick]

All Gentiles received the Holy Ghost baptism before they were baptized in the water. .

Scripture please?

 

[Brother Bob]

Corneilus was the first gentile and was an example and was said, seeing that "he has the Holy Ghost", what hindereth him from being baptized. Those of John's baptism, and they were Jews that were converted, were the only ones who received the Holy Ghost after water baptism, if I am not mistaken. peace


Acts, chapter 10
46": For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

"47": Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

"48": And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days

 

[LeBuick]

Corneilus was the first gentile and was an example and was said, seeing that "he has the Holy Ghost", what hindereth him from being baptized. Those of John's baptism, and they were Jews that were converted, were the only ones who received the Holy Ghost after water baptism, if I am not mistaken. peace

I never paid attention to that. John Baptized into repentance then said he that commeth after me etc... I always took that to mean the true baptism with the holy spirit came after the ritual with water. Interesting...

 

[Brother Bob]

Eternal life is a gift first and foremost. As a gift it was not given until needed and it was not needed at creation but after the fall. God breathed into man and he became a living soul designed by God to live eternally. But not in heaven Paul clearly states that there are different bodies and mans is not celestial. For man to live in heaven requires a miraculous change prompted and empowered by God Almighty

Could you explain this please. My understanding is that only the Celestial bodies will be in Heaven. We are now living in a Telestial body (natural body) but in the resurrection we will recieve our Celestial bodies (Heavely bodies).

Maybe I just misread you post and that is exactly what you were saying when you talked about the miraculous change, if so, forgive.

Also, I think several of us said we thought Adam would of lived forever if he had not eat of the forbidden fruit and fell. I know I posted that there was no death until Adam sinned, for sin is what brought death. peace

 

[thjplgvp]

RE:correction

Brother Bob,

Here is a corrected paragraph, sorry I should have proof it.

Eternal life is a gift first and foremost. As a gift it was not given until needed and it was not needed at creation but after the fall. God breathed into man and he became a living soul designed by God to live eternally, but not in heaven. Paul clearly states that there are different bodies and Adam’s body was not celestial but terrestrial. For man to live in heaven requires a miraculous change prompted and empowered by God Almighty as the scriptures say we shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Brother Bob]

I will amen that. peace

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

t….p:Here is a corrected paragraph, sorry I should have proof it.

Eternal life is a gift first and foremost. As a gift it was not given until needed and it was not needed at creation but after the fall.

HP: Now that is a nice presuppositional piece of conjecture. So eternal life was not needed or granted till after the fall. That makes the fall necessary for eternal life. If that is so, no eternal life could possibly have been granted to anyone until the first man sinned.


Conclusion. Sin is the only way to eternal life. HMMMMM.


This well might be the brain child of a new bumper sticker. “ Have you thanked Adam for sinning today?”

Are you sure that the angels that have not sinned do not possess eternal life?

 

[LeBuick]

This well might be the brain child of a new bumper sticker. “ Have you thanked Adam for sinning today?”

Are you sure that the angels that have not sinned do not possess eternal life?

It would be odd but true, you may want to follow it up with, "OR JESUS FOR DYING"

Angels don't die so have no need for salvation.

 

[thjplgvp]

RE: Response

First of all thank you for making me think this through.

Though man was created as an eternal being he seemingly had no access to heaven in his terrestrial form for God came and walked with Adam in the cool of the evening. While the angels had responsibilities and they had to give an account for those particular responsibilities (see Job) those angels also called (sons of God) had no humanity among them, they were celestial beings. I would surmise that man had no position before God in heaven but had standing before God on earth. As an eternal terrestrial being who fell, Adam (and you and I through Adam) lost our standing before an Almighty and Holy God and we were no longer justified to stand before God for we were no longer innocent and pure.

Romans 5:14-19 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

After Christ’s death, burial and resurrection man in the New Testament upon repentance and confession is now called a son of God, see Galatians 4:5-7, Phil 2:15, 1John 3:1-2. Why are we now a son of God, the reason is that through the gift (Jesus Christ) our justification before God through the righteousness of Christ has been established and we have been given eternal life as a celestial being (not an angel). How do we know this?

God will gather all together in heaven (Eph 1:10)
We are to be seated in heaven through the ages to come Eph 2:6-7
We are to be presented to God 2 Cor 4:14
Christ will present us to himself Eph 5:26-27

There is no way for me to say this with certainty but it is within the realm of possibility that the total of humanity saved will equal the total of the angelic host who fell. When Christ said that in heaven we will be like the angels is it not possible that part of the like could be a celestial body (a body made to interact on a heavenly plane). After all Christ and the angels could materialize where they wanted and where God sent them, would we as celestial eternal beings be any different?
Coming back to your original post again I repeat that before the fall we were eternal terrestrial beings but in Christ we will be eternal celestial beings. The gift of eternal life in my opinion is eternal heavenly life (celestial) with the Godhead and with the angels in glory.

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