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Was C.H. Spurgeon a Calvinist?
- Thread starter Dale-c
- Start date
Selections from Free Grace -- Continued
Now , in the great decree of election , the only reason why God selected the vessels of mercy must have been because He would do it . There was nothing in any one of them which caused God to choose them . We were all alike , all lost , all ruined by the fall ; all without the slighest claim upon His mercy ; all , in fact , deserving His vengeance . His choice of any one , and His choice of all His people , are causeless , so far as anything in them was concerned . It was the effect of His sovereign will , and of nothing which they did , could do , or even would do ; for thus saith the text : " Not for your sakes do I this , O house of Israel !"
As for the fruit of our election , in due time Christ came into this world , and purchased with His blood all those whom the Father hath chosen . Now come ye to the cross of Christ ; bring this doctrine with you , and remember that the only reason why Christ gave up His life to be a ransom for His sheep was because He loved His people , but there was nothing in His people that made Him die for them .
Now , this , I take it , is the meaning of the text ; distasteful it is to the great majority ; even of professing Christians in this age . It is a doctrine that requires a great deal of salt , or else few people will receive it . It is very unsavory to them . However , there it stands . " Let God be true and every man a liar ." His truth we must preach , and this we must proclaim . Salvation is " not of men , neither by man ; not of the will of the flesh , nor of blood ." nor of birth , but of the sovereign will of God , and God alone .
Now , in the great decree of election , the only reason why God selected the vessels of mercy must have been because He would do it . There was nothing in any one of them which caused God to choose them . We were all alike , all lost , all ruined by the fall ; all without the slighest claim upon His mercy ; all , in fact , deserving His vengeance . His choice of any one , and His choice of all His people , are causeless , so far as anything in them was concerned . It was the effect of His sovereign will , and of nothing which they did , could do , or even would do ; for thus saith the text : " Not for your sakes do I this , O house of Israel !"
As for the fruit of our election , in due time Christ came into this world , and purchased with His blood all those whom the Father hath chosen . Now come ye to the cross of Christ ; bring this doctrine with you , and remember that the only reason why Christ gave up His life to be a ransom for His sheep was because He loved His people , but there was nothing in His people that made Him die for them .
Now , this , I take it , is the meaning of the text ; distasteful it is to the great majority ; even of professing Christians in this age . It is a doctrine that requires a great deal of salt , or else few people will receive it . It is very unsavory to them . However , there it stands . " Let God be true and every man a liar ." His truth we must preach , and this we must proclaim . Salvation is " not of men , neither by man ; not of the will of the flesh , nor of blood ." nor of birth , but of the sovereign will of God , and God alone .
Bartimaeus
New Member
C. H. Spurgeon
"First you have to define what a Calvinist is" (little private thrust there, meant to bring a smile from my friend Dale C.)
I once heard another great preacher say, "God will use men in spite of their imperfections". It is a fact that C. H. was given to spells of despondency when he and his wife would leave and go away while he would recouperate. Could this have been because he was humble enough to wonder if he was truly "elected"?
Bartimaeus
"First you have to define what a Calvinist is" (little private thrust there, meant to bring a smile from my friend Dale C.)
I once heard another great preacher say, "God will use men in spite of their imperfections". It is a fact that C. H. was given to spells of despondency when he and his wife would leave and go away while he would recouperate. Could this have been because he was humble enough to wonder if he was truly "elected"?
Bartimaeus
Reminds me of John Wesley's statement in a letter to his brother, Charles:
Hey, I should post that on the "How can we know we're saved?" thread!
"I do not love God. I never did. Therefore I never believed, in the Christian sense of the word. Therefore I am only an honest heathen...And yet, to be so employed of God!"
(Quoted, Tomkins John Wesley: A Biography (Eerdmans, 2003) 168.)
(Quoted, Tomkins John Wesley: A Biography (Eerdmans, 2003) 168.)
Hey, I should post that on the "How can we know we're saved?" thread!
It is hard to say just why he did that. His wife suffered great illnesses. What I have read though is that when he was still in his 20s there was an incident where someone yelled fire at one of his services with 10,000 people present.
In the stampede to get out there were a few people killed and there was apparently no fire. It was written that this had a profound, sobering effect on his life.
As for doubting his salvation, that is a strawman. I have never seen any evidence of such.
Also, as for doubting ones salvation, calvinist doctrine secures. Anyone who truly understands it would never make such an absurd statement.
Bartimaeus
New Member
C.h.s.
I do not have historical evidence to say why he was as he was. I only read that it happened.
Secondly, I only ask a question, I did not make a statement.
Bartimaeus
Dale-c said:
I do not have historical evidence to say why he was as he was. I only read that it happened.
Secondly, I only ask a question, I did not make a statement.
Bartimaeus
The Doctrines Of grace Do Not Lead To Sin ( 8/19/83 )
But the men [ people - Rip ] who consider the doctrines of the gospel muse upon the everlasting covenant , predestination , immutable love , effectual calling , God in Christ Jesus , the work of the Spirit , justification sanctification , adoption and such like noble themes . Why , it is a refreshment merely to look over the catalogue of these grand truths ! Others are as children playing with little sand-heaps on the seashore ; but the believer in free grace walks among hills and mountains . The themes of thought around him tower upward , Alps on Alps ; the man's mental stature rises with his surroundings , and he becomes a thoughtful being , communing with sublimities .
But the men [ people - Rip ] who consider the doctrines of the gospel muse upon the everlasting covenant , predestination , immutable love , effectual calling , God in Christ Jesus , the work of the Spirit , justification sanctification , adoption and such like noble themes . Why , it is a refreshment merely to look over the catalogue of these grand truths ! Others are as children playing with little sand-heaps on the seashore ; but the believer in free grace walks among hills and mountains . The themes of thought around him tower upward , Alps on Alps ; the man's mental stature rises with his surroundings , and he becomes a thoughtful being , communing with sublimities .
Particular Redemption ( 2/28/58 )
I shall not now simply confine myself to the doctrine of faith , or the teaching of believer's baptism ; I shall not stay upon the surface of matters , but shall venture , as God shall guide me , to enter into those things that lie at the basis of the religion that we hold so dear . I shall not blush to preach before you the doctrine of God's Divine Sovereignty ; I shall not stagger to preach in the most unreserved and unguarded manner the doctrine of election . I shall not be afraid to propound the great truth of the final perseverance of the saints ; I shall not withhold that undoubted truth of Scripture , the effectual calling of God's elect . I shall endeavour , as God shall help me , to keep back nothing from you who have become my flock . Seeing that many of you have now "tasted that the Lord is gracious ," we will endeavour to go through the whole system of the doctrines of grace , that saints may be edified and built up in their most holy faith .
I shall not now simply confine myself to the doctrine of faith , or the teaching of believer's baptism ; I shall not stay upon the surface of matters , but shall venture , as God shall guide me , to enter into those things that lie at the basis of the religion that we hold so dear . I shall not blush to preach before you the doctrine of God's Divine Sovereignty ; I shall not stagger to preach in the most unreserved and unguarded manner the doctrine of election . I shall not be afraid to propound the great truth of the final perseverance of the saints ; I shall not withhold that undoubted truth of Scripture , the effectual calling of God's elect . I shall endeavour , as God shall help me , to keep back nothing from you who have become my flock . Seeing that many of you have now "tasted that the Lord is gracious ," we will endeavour to go through the whole system of the doctrines of grace , that saints may be edified and built up in their most holy faith .
Election ( 9/2/55 )
As for these human authorities , I care not one rush for all three [ he had cited an article a-piece from the Waldesian Creed , the 17th article from the Church of England , and one from the Baptist Confession of 1689 --Rip ] of them . I care not what they say , pro or con , as to this doctrine . I have only used them as a kind of confirmation to your faith to show you that whilst I may be railed upon as a heretic and as a hyper-Calvinist , after all I am backed up by antiquity . All the past stands by me . I do not care for the present . Give me the past and I will hope for the future . Let the present rise up in my teeth ; I will not care . What though a host of the churches of London may have forsaken the great cardinal doctrines of God , it matters not . If a handful of us stand alone in an unflinching maintenance of the sovereignty of God , if we are beset by enemies , ay , and even by our own brethren , who ought to be our friends and helpers , it matters not , if we can but count upon the past ; the noble army of martyrs , the glorious host of confessors , are our friends ; the witnesses of truth stand by us . With these for us , we will not say that we stand alone ; but we may exclaim , " Lo , God hath reserved unto himself seven thousand that have not bowed the knee unto Baal !" But the best of all is God is with us .
The great truth is always the Bible , and the Bible alone . My hearers , you do not believe in any other book than the Bible , do you ? If I could prove this from all books in Christendom ; if I could fetch back the Alexandrian library , and prove it thence , you would not believe it any more ; but you surely will believe what is in God's Word . [ Then he gives " a whole volley of texts " to establish the truth of this doctrine .--Rip ]
As for these human authorities , I care not one rush for all three [ he had cited an article a-piece from the Waldesian Creed , the 17th article from the Church of England , and one from the Baptist Confession of 1689 --Rip ] of them . I care not what they say , pro or con , as to this doctrine . I have only used them as a kind of confirmation to your faith to show you that whilst I may be railed upon as a heretic and as a hyper-Calvinist , after all I am backed up by antiquity . All the past stands by me . I do not care for the present . Give me the past and I will hope for the future . Let the present rise up in my teeth ; I will not care . What though a host of the churches of London may have forsaken the great cardinal doctrines of God , it matters not . If a handful of us stand alone in an unflinching maintenance of the sovereignty of God , if we are beset by enemies , ay , and even by our own brethren , who ought to be our friends and helpers , it matters not , if we can but count upon the past ; the noble army of martyrs , the glorious host of confessors , are our friends ; the witnesses of truth stand by us . With these for us , we will not say that we stand alone ; but we may exclaim , " Lo , God hath reserved unto himself seven thousand that have not bowed the knee unto Baal !" But the best of all is God is with us .
The great truth is always the Bible , and the Bible alone . My hearers , you do not believe in any other book than the Bible , do you ? If I could prove this from all books in Christendom ; if I could fetch back the Alexandrian library , and prove it thence , you would not believe it any more ; but you surely will believe what is in God's Word . [ Then he gives " a whole volley of texts " to establish the truth of this doctrine .--Rip ]
Continuing on "Election" ( 9/2/55 )
[His text was 2 Thess. 2:13,14]
And next , the election is PERSONAL .
Here , again , our opponents have tried to overthrow election by telling us that it is an election of nations , and not of people . But here the apostle says , " God hath from the beginning chosen you ." It is the most miserable shift on earth to make out that God has not chosen persons , but nations ,; because the very same objection that lies against the choice of persons lies against the choice of a nation. If it were not just to choose a person , it would be far more unjust to choose a nation ; since nations are but the union of multitudes of persons ; and to choose a nation seems to be a more gigantic crime -- if election be a crime -- than to choose one person . Surely , to chosose ten thousand would be reckoned to be worse than choosing one ; to distinguish a whole nation from the rest of mankind does seem to be a greater extravaganza in the acts of Divine sovereignty than the election of one poor mortal , and leaving out another .
But what are nations but men ? What are whole people but combinations of different units ? A nation is made up of that individual , and that , and that . And if you tell me that God chose that Jew , and that Jew and that Jew . And if you say He chooses Britain , then I say He chooses that British man , and that British man , and that British man . So that it is the same thingafter all . Election , then is personal : it must be so . Everyone who reads this text , and others like it , will see that Scripture continually speaks of God's people , one by one ; and speaks of them as having been the special subjects of election .
[His text was 2 Thess. 2:13,14]
And next , the election is PERSONAL .
Here , again , our opponents have tried to overthrow election by telling us that it is an election of nations , and not of people . But here the apostle says , " God hath from the beginning chosen you ." It is the most miserable shift on earth to make out that God has not chosen persons , but nations ,; because the very same objection that lies against the choice of persons lies against the choice of a nation. If it were not just to choose a person , it would be far more unjust to choose a nation ; since nations are but the union of multitudes of persons ; and to choose a nation seems to be a more gigantic crime -- if election be a crime -- than to choose one person . Surely , to chosose ten thousand would be reckoned to be worse than choosing one ; to distinguish a whole nation from the rest of mankind does seem to be a greater extravaganza in the acts of Divine sovereignty than the election of one poor mortal , and leaving out another .
But what are nations but men ? What are whole people but combinations of different units ? A nation is made up of that individual , and that , and that . And if you tell me that God chose that Jew , and that Jew and that Jew . And if you say He chooses Britain , then I say He chooses that British man , and that British man , and that British man . So that it is the same thingafter all . Election , then is personal : it must be so . Everyone who reads this text , and others like it , will see that Scripture continually speaks of God's people , one by one ; and speaks of them as having been the special subjects of election .
Yet Even More Snippets From " Election "
How many men [ people --Rip ] mistake the doctrine of election altogether ? And how my soul burns and boils at the recollection of the terrible evils that have accrued from the spoiling and the wrestling of that glorious truth !
And , lest this should be too high for you , note the other mark of election , which is faith , " belief of the truth ." Whoever believes God's truth , and believes on Jesus Christ , is elect . I frequently meet with poor souls , who are fretting and worrying themselves about this thought -- " How , if I should say not be elect !" " Oh , sir ," they say , " I know I put my trust in Jesus ; I know I believe in His name and trust in His blood ; but how if I should not be elect ? " Poor dear creature ! You do not know much about the Gospel , or you would never talk so , for he that believes is elect . Those who are elect unto sanctification and unto faith ; and if you have faith you are one of God's elect ; you may know it and ought to know it , for it is an absolute certainty . If you , as a sinner , look to Jesus Christ this morning , and say --
" Nothing in my hands I bring ,
Simply to Thy cross I cling,"
you are elect . I am not afraid of election frightening poor saints or sinners . There are many divines who tell the inquirer , " election has nothing to do with you ." That is very bad , because the poor soul is not to be silenced like that . If you could silence him so it might be well , but he will think of it , he can't help it . Say to him then , if you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ you are elect . If you will cast yourself on Jesus , you are elect . I tell you -- the chief of sinners -- this morning , I tell you in His name , if you will come to God without any works of your own ; cast yourself on the blood and righteousness of Jesus Christ ; if you will come now and trust in Him , you are elect -- you were loved of God from before the foundation of the world , for you could not do that unless God had given you the power , and had chosen you to do it . Now you are safe and secure if you do but come and cast yourself on Jesus Christ , and wish to be saved and to be loved by Him .
How many men [ people --Rip ] mistake the doctrine of election altogether ? And how my soul burns and boils at the recollection of the terrible evils that have accrued from the spoiling and the wrestling of that glorious truth !
And , lest this should be too high for you , note the other mark of election , which is faith , " belief of the truth ." Whoever believes God's truth , and believes on Jesus Christ , is elect . I frequently meet with poor souls , who are fretting and worrying themselves about this thought -- " How , if I should say not be elect !" " Oh , sir ," they say , " I know I put my trust in Jesus ; I know I believe in His name and trust in His blood ; but how if I should not be elect ? " Poor dear creature ! You do not know much about the Gospel , or you would never talk so , for he that believes is elect . Those who are elect unto sanctification and unto faith ; and if you have faith you are one of God's elect ; you may know it and ought to know it , for it is an absolute certainty . If you , as a sinner , look to Jesus Christ this morning , and say --
" Nothing in my hands I bring ,
Simply to Thy cross I cling,"
you are elect . I am not afraid of election frightening poor saints or sinners . There are many divines who tell the inquirer , " election has nothing to do with you ." That is very bad , because the poor soul is not to be silenced like that . If you could silence him so it might be well , but he will think of it , he can't help it . Say to him then , if you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ you are elect . If you will cast yourself on Jesus , you are elect . I tell you -- the chief of sinners -- this morning , I tell you in His name , if you will come to God without any works of your own ; cast yourself on the blood and righteousness of Jesus Christ ; if you will come now and trust in Him , you are elect -- you were loved of God from before the foundation of the world , for you could not do that unless God had given you the power , and had chosen you to do it . Now you are safe and secure if you do but come and cast yourself on Jesus Christ , and wish to be saved and to be loved by Him .
Welcome to the BB, RJS .
So you think that Charles H. Spurgeon was a weak Calvinist ?! Are you from 5solas , or Outside The Camp ? Spurgeon was anything but a weak Calvinist as I have demonstrated repeatedly in my posts . You apparently have some criteria which casts him in the mold as a weak Calvinist . What qualifies him for your designation ?
So you think that Charles H. Spurgeon was a weak Calvinist ?! Are you from 5solas , or Outside The Camp ? Spurgeon was anything but a weak Calvinist as I have demonstrated repeatedly in my posts . You apparently have some criteria which casts him in the mold as a weak Calvinist . What qualifies him for your designation ?
I think Spurgeon would disagree,RichardJS said:
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/9170/SPUR1.HTM
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/9170/SPUR2.HTM
Rippon said:
donnA said:
Brethren I hope you will not mind my killing two birds with one stone
From what I can gather from the 5solas website I would be in agreement with their doctrinal basis: http://www.5solas.org/media.php?id=574 But I will not say I agree with all the 5solas say because I have not read all their website. Also looking at the doctrinal basis of OTC it does not seem too bad.
I would argue that CHS was a weak Calvinist because whilst he held to TULIP he did not hold to reprobation and his sermon (http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/1516.htm) on 1 Timothy 2 is not inline with Calvin and Owen and other Reformed writers. Also his agreeing with duty-faith.
Agreeing with duty-faith doesn't make someone a weak calvinist. It makes them a calvinist rather than a hypercalvinist. From All house and no doors: A Brief Critique of the False Teachings of Hyper-Calvinism:RichardJS said:
russell55 said:
I am afraid the label of "Hyper-Calvinist" means nothing to me in that it is only a term of abuse and anyway, I assume that you are a baptist and as you have gone beyond Calvin on baptism in rejecting infant baptism you also are a "Hyper-Calvinist". I prefer to take the Scripture as the foundation of truth and not Calvin. He is good but not inerrant
I am glad that your source does not understand why I deny duty-faith.
A. Will those who never hear of Christ be condemned for not believing upon him? i.e. is unbelief a sin for those who never hear of Christ?
B. What is faith? What then must a person believe before they are saved? That Christ died for sinners? What about it being personal? The object of saving faith are are not bare axioms or propositions as Gill correctly teaches:
"An assent unto Christ as a Saviour, enters into the true nature of faith; not a bare naked assent of the mind to the truth of the person and offices of Christ; that he is the Son of God, the Messiah, Prophet, Priest, and King, such as has been yielded to him by men destitute of true faith in him, as by Simon Magus and others, yea, by the devils themselves (Luke 4:34,41). "Of all the poison, says Dr. Owen, which at this day is diffused in the minds of men, corrupting them from the mystery of the gospel, there is no part that is more pernicious than this one perverse imagination, that to "believe in Christ" is nothing at all but to "believe the doctrine of the gospel!" which yet we grant is included therein.’’
Such a proposition, that Christ is the Saviour of the chief of sinners, or that salvation is alone by him, is not presented merely under the notion of its being "true", and assented to as such, but under the notion of its being "good", a suitable, acceptable, and preferable good, and to be chosen as the good part was by Mary; as being both a "faithful saying" to be believed as true, and as "worthy of all acceptation", to be received and embraced as the chiefest good. Faith is an assent to Christ as a Saviour, not upon an human, but a divine testimony, upon the record which God has given of his Son, and of eternal life in him. Some of the Samaritans believed on Christ because of the saying of the woman; but others because of his own word, having heard him themselves, and knew that he was indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world: true faith, in sensible sinners, assents to Christ, and embraces him not merely as a Saviour of men in general; but as a special, suitable Saviour for them in particular: it proceeds upon Christ’s being revealed "in" them, as well as "to" them, by the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, in the knowledge of him as a Saviour that becomes them; it comes not merely through external teachings, by the hearing of the word from men; but having "heard and learned of the Father", such souls come to Christ, that is, believe in him (John 6:45), not the doctrine of him only, but in him himself."
(see)Such a proposition, that Christ is the Saviour of the chief of sinners, or that salvation is alone by him, is not presented merely under the notion of its being "true", and assented to as such, but under the notion of its being "good", a suitable, acceptable, and preferable good, and to be chosen as the good part was by Mary; as being both a "faithful saying" to be believed as true, and as "worthy of all acceptation", to be received and embraced as the chiefest good. Faith is an assent to Christ as a Saviour, not upon an human, but a divine testimony, upon the record which God has given of his Son, and of eternal life in him. Some of the Samaritans believed on Christ because of the saying of the woman; but others because of his own word, having heard him themselves, and knew that he was indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world: true faith, in sensible sinners, assents to Christ, and embraces him not merely as a Saviour of men in general; but as a special, suitable Saviour for them in particular: it proceeds upon Christ’s being revealed "in" them, as well as "to" them, by the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, in the knowledge of him as a Saviour that becomes them; it comes not merely through external teachings, by the hearing of the word from men; but having "heard and learned of the Father", such souls come to Christ, that is, believe in him (John 6:45), not the doctrine of him only, but in him himself."
I agree fully with Gill when he says
"That faith by which a man is said to he justified, is not a mere assurance of the object, or a bare persuasion that there is a justifying righteousness in Christ; but that there is a justifying righteousness in Christ for him; and therefore he looks unto, leans, relies, and depends on, and pleads this righteousness for his justification: ... And what is short of this I cannot apprehend to be true faith in Christ, as the Lord our righteousness."
(see)This being true, faith can in no way be a duty for God would not make it a duty for men to believe a lie. Christ died only for the elect and so to teach duty faith means that you believe it is the duty of those for whom Christ did not die to believe that Christ died for them.
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RJS , If You Don't Mind ... I'll Continue
From " The Doctrines Of Grace Do Not Lead To Sin " ( 8/19/83 )
By-the-way , I cannot help observing that I have known persons object to the evil influence of the doctrines of grace who were by no means qualified by their own morality to be judges of the subject .
One said the other day , " If I believed that I was eternally saved , I should live in sin ." Perhaps YOU would ; but if you were renewed in heart you would not . " But ," says one , " if I believed God loved me from before the foundation of the world , and that therefore I should be saved , I would take a full swing at sin . " Perhaps YOU and the devil would ; but God's regenerate children are not of so base a nature . To them the abounding grace of the Father is a bond to righteousness which they never think of breaking : they feel the sweet constraints of sacred gratitude , and desire to perfect holiness in the fear of the Lord .
From " The Doctrines Of Grace Do Not Lead To Sin " ( 8/19/83 )
By-the-way , I cannot help observing that I have known persons object to the evil influence of the doctrines of grace who were by no means qualified by their own morality to be judges of the subject .
One said the other day , " If I believed that I was eternally saved , I should live in sin ." Perhaps YOU would ; but if you were renewed in heart you would not . " But ," says one , " if I believed God loved me from before the foundation of the world , and that therefore I should be saved , I would take a full swing at sin . " Perhaps YOU and the devil would ; but God's regenerate children are not of so base a nature . To them the abounding grace of the Father is a bond to righteousness which they never think of breaking : they feel the sweet constraints of sacred gratitude , and desire to perfect holiness in the fear of the Lord .