Was Christ Ignorant of OSAS?

[steaver]

HP: Many in the last day will find themselves deceived as to what they thought or believed their standing with God was.

Make your calling and election certain.

I personally will do that by examining my life and actions in light of the Word of God and the Spirit He has given.

I want everyone to carefully read this above quote from HP.....

Read it closely......

Does anyone see the oxymoron in it?

Many in the last day will find themselves deceived as to what they thought or believed their standing with God was.

However.....

Make your calling and election certain.

HP believes and thinks his standing is certain because......

I personally will do that by examining my life and actions in light of the Word of God and the Spirit He has given

...and by doing this HP believes and thinks that he will not be found deceived. But according to his philosophy the very thing he believes and thinks about his own salvation is uncertain for he could be one of those deceived that he speaks of.

Conclusion, which is eactly what satan wants, is for those to believe as HP stated here and live as one who cannot be 100% sure God will accept them according to their deeds and works of the law. The blood of Christ might not work for you. It is not of grace but of YOU.

The sad result of not understanding faith alone and eternal life through regeneration.

 

[DHK]

It has been some time since I read the quote, but I believe I can say it was by Calvin. It went something like this. God has not so designed the assurance of salvation in such a way that when a person is in a “low state of grace” such a one can accurately discern their final standing before God.

If this is true then please answer this hypothetical:

If you were to stand before God right now, and He were to ask you:
"Why should I allow you into my heaven?"

What would your answer be?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK, you have been reading too many St Peter jokes.

Seriously, hypothetical questions seldom elicit well reasoned answers, and that for good reason. God will not judge anyone based on their reasons, but rather on whether or not they have remained obedient to the faith. He knows us better than we know ourselves. This I know, it will not be the one that has the best reasons, but rather, who has clean hands and a pure heart.
Ps 24:3 ¶ Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
5 He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.

 

[steaver]

If we walk by faith, the possibility has to exist we 'could be' deceived. There is no reason we have to be deceived,

Could be deceived....

No reason we have to be deceived.....

Are you confused HP?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

No I am not confused. Nothing forces us to end up deceived, but the possibility exists we could be.

 

[steaver]

No I am not confused. Nothing forces us to end up deceived, but the possibility exists we could be.

No, you did not say anything about being "forced".

You said one could be deceived in one breath and then one does not have to be deceived in the next.

Part of being deceived is not KNOWING you have been deceived.

So by your own philosophy you cannot have any sure certainty that you have not been deceived.

Your "hope" is that you have not been deceived.

My "hope" is in the person of Jesus Christ and His works, not mine.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: My "hope" is in the person of Jesus Christ and His works, not mine.

HP: If you think that my hope is not in the blood of Jesus Christ you are deceived. That by no means negates the obligation, commanded by God, for me to repent, exercise faith, and continue to the end in obedience, without which I am but harboring a deceived notion as to my final standing before Him.

 

[steaver]

HP: If you think that my hope is not in the blood of Jesus Christ you are deceived. That by no means negates the obligation, commanded by God, for me to repent, exercise faith, and continue to the end in obedience, without which I am but harboring a deceived notion as to my final standing before Him.

Well you said anyone, this would include yourself, could be deceived.

Then you say one does not have to be deceived.

Well how would you know until the final judgment if you were deceived or not?

According to your philosophy one cannot know with certainty, yet you then say one can be certain.

It is an oxymoron statement.

 

[Jedi Knight]

No I am not confused. Nothing forces us to end up deceived, but the possibility exists we could be.

Not what Jesus taught.....They will by no means follow a stranger,if fact they will run away because they do not recognise a strangers voice. This contradicts your belief.

 

[DHK]

DHK, you have been reading too many St Peter jokes.

Seriously, hypothetical questions seldom elicit well reasoned answers, and that for good reason. God will not judge anyone based on their reasons, but rather on whether or not they have remained obedient to the faith.

You have answered wrong, and according to the Scriptures a person would not be able to enter into heaven based on that answer.
Furthermore, it was a serious question, albeit hypothetical, and had nothing to do with jokes. To take lightly one's salvation is not a joking matter. Do you think that eternity is a joking matter? Seriously?

 

[JohnDeereFan]

DHK, you have been reading too many St Peter jokes.

Seriously, hypothetical questions seldom elicit well reasoned answers, and that for good reason. God will not judge anyone based on their reasons, but rather on whether or not they have remained obedient to the faith. He knows us better than we know ourselves. This I know, it will not be the one that has the best reasons, but rather, who has clean hands and a pure heart.
Ps 24:3 ¶ Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
5 He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.

I find it very interesting that you insist that you're not counting on saved by your obedience to the law, and then cite a verse that says that those who are obedient to the law will be saved.

 

[DHK]

You have answered wrong, and according to the Scriptures a person would not be able to enter into heaven based on that answer.
Furthermore, it was a serious question, albeit hypothetical, and had nothing to do with jokes. To take lightly one's salvation is not a joking matter. Do you think that eternity is a joking matter? Seriously?

Do I get a serious answer or not HP?

If you were to stand before God right now, and He were to ask you:
"Why should I allow you into my heaven?"

What would your answer be?

Still waiting.

 

[Jedi Knight]

I want everyone to carefully read this above quote from HP.....

Read it closely......

Does anyone see the oxymoron in it?



However.....



HP believes and thinks his standing is certain because......



...and by doing this HP believes and thinks that he will not be found deceived. But according to his philosophy the very thing he believes and thinks about his own salvation is uncertain for he could be one of those deceived that he speaks of.

Conclusion, which is eactly what satan wants, is for those to believe as HP stated here and live as one who cannot be 100% sure God will accept them according to their deeds and works of the law. The blood of Christ might not work for you. It is not of grace but of YOU.

The sad result of not understanding faith alone and eternal life through regeneration.

Good job breaking it down steaver! To believe you can loose salvation leads to confusion.......and we know God is not the author of that.

 

[Mississippi John]

Blood don't erase........I hope.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JK: To believe you can loose salvation leads to confusion.......and we know God is not the author of that.

HP: I have personally witnessed the confusion OSAS breeds first hand. I am sure that anyone that has been around OSAS preaching very long has witnessed the following testimony. Have you ever heard a testimony by one in long good standing with an assembly testify after a hard hitting message to repentance that goes something like this: “ I have been a Sunday School teacher for almost twenty years, and discovered today I was not saved.”

Now the real problem is that they have once had a clear testimony of salvation but have came under condemnation for one reason or another. There is no way they can testify in such groups that they have backslid and were on their way to hell, so the only thing they can testify is that they have never been saved.

What are they to do next time they fall into sin again and know full well within their soul that they are not right with God??

What confusion OSAS breeds among the people of God. I say there is no security in eternal security unless it is coupled with a conscience void of offense. The only true security is the peace of God that only comes when the conscience is clear before God and man. Eternal security is but deceiving suave over the blinded eyes of any whose conscience is not void of offense between God and between man. Faith always is coupled with a clear conscience if it is a faith that saves.

 

[BobRyan]

In the OP - HP mentiones the Matt 18 story Christ tells about "full forgiveness" being revoked.

Mt 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

HP: Did someone forget to instuct our Lord that OSAS trumps any and all possibilities of a believer ending up in hell????

And the OSAS group responds by ducking,dancing,and-dodging around the text in a way that never actually quotes it and shows their OSAS tradition to survive the text.

Seems pretty clear to me that our salvation depends on what we do while we are here. Jesus did not say He would reward those who are saved according to their deeds. He is referring to every man, both the saved and the unsaved. But I'm sure you will spin it to try and make it say something else. The OSAS crowd has to do that with a lot of scripture.

Surely someone in the OSAS group can actually deal with the texts listed in the OP. Anyone? Or is the solution "supposed to be" - to just tell HP he has lost his salvation if he dares to bring up the points raised in those texts?

inquiring minds want to know.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

HP: I have personally witnessed the confusion OSAS breeds first hand. I am sure that anyone that has been around OSAS preaching very long has witnessed the following testimony. Have you ever heard a testimony by one in long good standing with an assembly testify after a hard hitting message to repentance that goes something like this: “ I have been a Sunday School teacher for almost twenty years, and discovered today I was not saved.”

Now the real problem is that they have once had a clear testimony of salvation but have came under condemnation for one reason or another. There is no way they can testify in such groups that they have backslid and were on their way to hell, so the only thing they can testify is that they have never been saved.

So easy to judge, and to condemn. You are judge, jury and executioner all at once.
First, the person may be one who did not for some reason understand correctly the gospel.
Second, the person may never have been convicted of the Holy Spirit. It may simply have been a profession of the mind.
Third, the person may have simply gone through the motions because someone else wanted them to do it--social pressure. Many children and teens are like this.
It is the Word + the Holy Spirit that is needed in order to be saved, not just going through the motions.

What are they to do next time they fall into sin again and know full well within their soul that they are not right with God??

Falling into sin never caused anyone to lose their salvation in the first place. You are deceived. It seems that you lack understanding in the doctrine of soteriology.

What confusion OSAS breeds among the people of God. I say there is no security in eternal security unless it is coupled with a conscience void of offense.

The Bible doesn't teach that. The Bible teaches that salvation is all of God. We are kept by HIS power, not our own. To think that we can keep salvation by OUR power is ludicrous. It is Christ that saves; not we that save ourselves by our works.

The only true security is the peace of God that only comes when the conscience is clear before God and man.

Where does peace come from?
"Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God.
Peace comes from being justified by faith and faith alone.

Eternal security is but deceiving suave over the blinded eyes of any whose conscience is not void of offense between God and between man.

Is your conscience always void of offense between yourself and others.
Every time you make a false accusation on this board, like calling either Steaver of me a Calvinist, you do not have a conscience void of offense, for you have just lied.

Faith always is coupled with a clear conscience if it is a faith that saves.

It is the kettle calling pot black.
Take care of your own backyard first.

Salvation is all of God. It is by grace alone; by faith alone; in Christ alone.

 

[Jedi Knight]

HP: I have personally witnessed the confusion OSAS breeds first hand. I am sure that anyone that has been around OSAS preaching very long has witnessed the following testimony. Have you ever heard a testimony by one in long good standing with an assembly testify after a hard hitting message to repentance that goes something like this: “ I have been a Sunday School teacher for almost twenty years, and discovered today I was not saved.”

Now the real problem is that they have once had a clear testimony of salvation but have came under condemnation for one reason or another. There is no way they can testify in such groups that they have backslid and were on their way to hell, so the only thing they can testify is that they have never been saved.

What are they to do next time they fall into sin again and know full well within their soul that they are not right with God??

What confusion OSAS breeds among the people of God. I say there is no security in eternal security unless it is coupled with a conscience void of offense. The only true security is the peace of God that only comes when the conscience is clear before God and man. Eternal security is but deceiving suave over the blinded eyes of any whose conscience is not void of offense between God and between man. Faith always is coupled with a clear conscience if it is a faith that saves.

It's a straw man argument! The Bible is clear that there are tares and there is wheat. And God is able to give assurance to His own and not be confused of being decieved.

 

[BobRyan]

Still - having someone "Actually" address the texts that HP raised in the OP - ending with the special focus on Matt 18 and "Forgiveness revoked", Matt 5:29-30, Matt 6:15, Matt 18:would be a bit more compelling by way of a substantive response to the subject itself.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Jedi Knight]

In the OP - HP mentiones the Matt 18 story Christ tells about "full forgiveness" being revoked.




Bob

He also said was Christ ingnorant.....is that a way to open a topic?