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Was Christ Ignorant of OSAS?

My hat is off to Dwmoeller1. :applause:

I do not believe I have read anyone with more articulate and logical compelling arguments on this list. I am struggling with trying to find a point of disagreement, and am having a very difficult time. Dwmoeller1 is a true breath of fresh air in my opinion. I am just sitting back listening and learning at the moment. :)
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
1. I want it to be recognized that one can agree with everything you said and still not hold to a OSAS doctrine. The doctrine of the perseverance of the saints also agrees with everything you say,

yet still finds fault with OSAS on some other points.

So, while I would probably agree with a well reasoned OSAS position for that I would a free-will position, I still am technically anti-OSAS.

When I defend OSAS I am only defending the terms within the phrase;

"Once Saved Always Saved"

That is, as these terms are defined by scripture the phrase is indeed fact.

I don't know what "other points" you are refering to.

According to your profession, the phrase stands true for you as well.
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
My hat is off to Dwmoeller1. :applause:

I do not believe I have read anyone with more articulate and logical compelling arguments on this list. I am struggling with trying to find a point of disagreement, and am having a very difficult time. Dwmoeller1 is a true breath of fresh air in my opinion. I am just sitting back listening and learning at the moment. :)

I agree! :thumbs:

I'm glad you like what he said about my post.
 

dwmoeller1

New Member
When I defend OSAS I am only defending the terms within the phrase;

"Once Saved Always Saved"

That is, as these terms are defined by scripture the phrase is indeed fact.

I don't know what "other points" you are refering to.

According to your profession, the phrase stands true for you as well.

As i mentioned before, I don't think I have any significant differences with OSAS as long as it remains on the simple fact of salvation. I agree that the evidence is overwhelming in Scripture that if one is truly saved then one will always be saved.

However, I rarely see OSAS supporters limit themselves to the theoretical aspect of the doctrine. So, for you, what are some of the practical upshots about this doctrine? Is it useful in answering the personal question of "How can I know if I am saved.", and if so, how?
 
The problem I see with OSAS starts with a false view of what salvation entails from our perspective. Those most often I have dealt with concerning OSAS view salvation as in reality being entirely settled on the cross once for all, and ones ‘salvation in reality is simply a matter of when they realize what has already been done on their behalf. The deal has been sealed by their view of the atonement as a forensic proceeding denoted as a literal payment being made for all past present and future sins. I do not think we can ever have any meaningful discussion with most apart from re-looking at these issues as well. I for one would like to see how Dwmoeller1 approaches the atonement, and exactly what was accomplished.
 
We should also realize that when we speak of being ‘saved’ that means different things to many of us, making simple conversation difficult at best. We talk past each other more often than not.

Salvation to many on this board is in reality a done deal at the cross, even though often presented as accomplish at a salvation experience. It is confusion due to the fact that they always point to the cross, yet speak of being saved at a time in their life. I see their definition and use of salvation as contradictory at best due to what I see as a faulty view on the atonement and what it actually acccomplished.

I, on the other hand, do not believe individual salvation was accomplished on the cross, but rather the bridge was built to accomplish it IF one is willing to accept the stated conditions. Furthermore I do NOT view salvation as a one time act on the cross or at a point in ones life. I view salvation in three senses, not one. Individual salvation is a process that begins at ones experience of repentance and faith, continues through our life on this earth and is culminated in finality when we enter in and hear those words, “Well done thou good an faithful servant!” One can readily see why I would shy away from saying one can ‘lose their salvation’ for it is impossible to lose that which in reality has only been gained in part due to our fintite knowledge and our walk by faith not absolute knowledge. One will not ‘lose’ their salvation until they stand before the Eternal Judge, and be found not to be robed in white raiment nor their sins under the blood. In this life they certainly may be candidates for losing their hope of salvation they either felt they had or in fact did posses in measure at one time, i.e., from their finite perspective.

So one can clearly see the difficulty in these discussions with so many often using the same words all the while holding different ideas as to what those words involve and mean.
 

dwmoeller1

New Member
The problem I see with OSAS starts with a false view of what salvation entails from our perspective. Those most often I have dealt with concerning OSAS view salvation as in reality being entirely settled on the cross once for all, and ones ‘salvation in reality is simply a matter of when they realize what has already been done on their behalf. The deal has been sealed by their view of the atonement as a forensic proceeding denoted as a literal payment being made for all past present and future sins.


Most OSAS I talk to are unlikely to have such well formed concepts about the atonement, that or their views are so widely variant on the subject that I don't see any way to successfully generalize "the OSAS view". But thats just my experience. It means that my problems with OSAS tend to be much more about the "practical" aspects of the doctrine - ie. tending to be secure in their salvation based on a point-in-time event in the past.

I do not think we can ever have any meaningful discussion with most apart from re-looking at these issues as well. I for one would like to see how Dwmoeller1 approaches the atonement, and exactly what was accomplished.

I am still feeling my way through the doctrine of atonement. So much of the atonement seems to be indefinite in Scripture. I know the major doctrine grouping that I tend to identify with most - Calvinists - don't deal with it well. Their doctrine of limited atonement is way too much of a "If all these doctrines are precisely the way we believe, then LA follows from these...never mind that the direct Scriptural support for this doctrine is way more tenuous than the definiteness of our doctrine would lead one to believe." Sure, Calvinist LA deals with some passages way better than other positions, but there are too many passages that just don't fit and can't seem to be made to fit w/o too many mental gymnastics.

All in all, I have yet to see an approach to the atonement which answers more questions than it raises. So I am trying to feel my way through my own systematic approach as best I can.

What I have so far is this...The atonement is limited in one sense - either limited in power or scope. That is, either the atonement applies to everyone but is not sufficient to save everyone (limited in power), or else it applies to only the elect but is sufficient in power to save the elect (limited in scope). However, in another sense the atonement is unlimited...but trying to define exactly how in a comprehensible way is where I keep failing at this point.

I don't know if any of that is helpful, but there it is.
 

dwmoeller1

New Member
We should also realize that when we speak of being ‘saved’ that means different things to many of us, making simple conversation difficult at best. We talk past each other more often than not.

Salvation to many on this board is in reality a done deal at the cross, even though often presented as accomplish at a salvation experience. It is confusion due to the fact that they always point to the cross, yet speak of being saved at a time in their life. I see their definition and use of salvation as contradictory at best due to what I see as a faulty view on the atonement and what it actually acccomplished.

In your view, what does the atonement accomplish?

I, on the other hand, do not believe individual salvation was accomplished on the cross, but rather the bridge was built to accomplish it IF one is willing to accept the stated conditions.


I would be surprised if most everyone didn't have the same essential view when it came down to it. They may not like the term "conditions" but yet still understand some conditions to exist in the most technical sense.

Furthermore I do NOT view salvation as a one time act on the cross or at a point in ones life. I view salvation in three senses, not one. Individual salvation is a process that begins at ones experience of repentance and faith, continues through our life on this earth and is culminated in finality when we enter in and hear those words, “Well done thou good an faithful servant!” One can readily see why I would shy away from saying one can ‘lose their salvation’ for it is impossible to lose that which in reality has only been gained in part due to our fintite knowledge and our walk by faith not absolute knowledge. One will not ‘lose’ their salvation until they stand before the Eternal Judge, and be found not to be robed in white raiment nor their sins under the blood. In this life they certainly may be candidates for losing their hope of salvation they either felt they had or in fact did posses in measure at one time, i.e., from their finite perspective.

I think it equally valid to say "We are saved.", "We will be saved." and "We are being saved." Relying too much on one view of salvation over the other leads to problems as Scripture (clearly IMO) speaks of it in all senses at various points. So, agreeing with you mostly I think. It definitely highlights some of the same difficulties I have with OSAS. It seems the doctrine tends to over emphasize the "I was saved." aspect of salvation.

At the same time, I am curious how you view some other concepts having to do with salvation. Most specifically, what is your view of "regeneration"?
 
Dw1: In your view, what does the atonement accomplish?

HP: First, I will tell you where I found the most agreement in my own mind with that Scriptures on the issue of the atonement. I read the book several years ago entitled “The Atonement” by Albert Barnes. It can found online at
http://www.gospeltruth.net/Barnes_atonement/barnesindex.htm


It was a great help to me.



HP: I, on the other hand, do not believe individual salvation was accomplished on the cross, but rather the bridge was built to accomplish it IF one is willing to accept the stated conditions.
Dw1: I would be surprised if most everyone didn't have the same essential view when it came down to it. They may not like the term "conditions" but yet still understand some conditions to exist in the most technical sense.

HP: You will indeed be surprised on this discussion board!:)
Quote:
HP: Furthermore I do NOT view salvation as a one time act on the cross or at a point in ones life. I view salvation in three senses, not one. Individual salvation is a process that begins at ones experience of repentance and faith, continues through our life on this earth and is culminated in finality when we enter in and hear those words, “Well done thou good an faithful servant!” One can readily see why I would shy away from saying one can ‘lose their salvation’ for it is impossible to lose that which in reality has only been gained in part due to our fintite knowledge and our walk by faith not absolute knowledge. One will not ‘lose’ their salvation until they stand before the Eternal Judge, and be found not to be robed in white raiment nor their sins under the blood. In this life they certainly may be candidates for losing their hope of salvation they either felt they had or in fact did posses in measure at one time, i.e., from their finite perspective.

Dw1: I think it equally valid to say "We are saved.", "We will be saved." and "We are being saved." Relying too much on one view of salvation over the other leads to problems as Scripture (clearly IMO) speaks of it in all senses at various points. So, agreeing with you mostly I think. It definitely highlights some of the same difficulties I have with OSAS. It seems the doctrine tends to over emphasize the "I was saved." aspect of salvation.


HP: Agreed. I would say that too many either want the holiness without the security, or want the security without the holiness. I believe there is a third opinion that differs slightly from either view but blends the holiness with the security in a Scriptural and reasonable fashion.

Dw1: At the same time, I am curious how you view some other concepts having to do with salvation. Most specifically, what is your view of "regeneration"?

HP: I believe regeneration is an act of the Holy Sprit upon the spirit of man that happens subsequent to the sinner coming in repentance and faith in which the heart is washed clean from every stain of 'sins that are past,' renewing the mind in a state of obedience to Gods Word and His moral law. At the moment of regeneration, man is at one with God in a state of purity and forgiveness.

What I do NOT believe regeneration is: The act of God granting to a sinner the ability to repent and believe. I believe all men possess those abilities naturally. Man only needs to hear the gospel and respond to the drawing of the Holy Spirit in obedience to repentance and faith in order to be saved. ( I always reserve the right to re-state or alter slightly the manner in which I give such answers.:thumbs:)
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
As i mentioned before, I don't think I have any significant differences with OSAS as long as it remains on the simple fact of salvation. I agree that the evidence is overwhelming in Scripture that if one is truly saved then one will always be saved.

However, I rarely see OSAS supporters limit themselves to the theoretical aspect of the doctrine. So, for you, what are some of the practical upshots about this doctrine? Is it useful in answering the personal question of "How can I know if I am saved.", and if so, how?

There is only one given answer in scripture as to how one can "know" they are saved.


2Cr 13:5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.



Rom 8:9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
 
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Steaver: There is only one given answer in scripture as to how one can "know" they are saved.


2Cr 13:5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your…

HP: At what point are we to make that examination?? Is it 'one' and one only examination for all time, or does that word ‘examine’ have the connotation of something to be repeated as we walk in this present world? (What is that fancy word for a continuous action verb?)
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
At the same time, I am curious how you view some other concepts having to do with salvation. Most specifically, what is your view of "regeneration"?

"Regeneration" is the foundation of OSAS. If one misses the mark on regeneration their doctrinal house will crumble as if on sand. Yet he himself will be saved.
 
Steaver: As often as one needs until they mature in Christ.

HP: Then there is only one thing I can conclude about your belief, and that is one can not be certain of their faith until maturity.

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
HP: Then there is only one thing I can conclude about your belief, and that is one can not be certain of their faith until maturity.

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Many times in my infancy in Christ have I been rebuked by a loving mature Christian saying, "know ye not that Jesus Christ is in you? Straighten up, repent and put on Christ, except ye be a reprobate".

Other times in my despare have I doubted God was really true, and then almost instantly the indwelling Spirit within me reminds me that He is and to "hang in there", in other words, perservere steaver, perservere.
 

May we persevere in obedience and love, for any notion of persevering while in a state of disobedience is at antipodes to a present, trustworthy, lively hope in Christ.
 

dwmoeller1

New Member
There is only one given answer in scripture as to how one can "know" they are saved.


2Cr 13:5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.



Rom 8:9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

If I may be so bold, it appears that how you address the question of "How can I know I am saved?" has little, if any, direct relationship to OSAS. Is that a fair assessment?
 
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