Why do you harp on "Bob Ryan-man made-"forgiveness revoked" doctrine when you are the only one here that believes it. It doesn't have any credibility with anyone else. You will have to find another way to demonstrate your position, for teaching doctrine from a parable is bogus. That doctrine is not taught in any other Scripture. Your position is moot. No one will accept it, nor does accept it.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Was Christ Ignorant of OSAS?
- Thread starter Heavenly Pilgrim
- Start date
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Scripture teaches forgiveness revoked and many believe the truth. This truth is by no means novel to BR. Just call me HP nobody!
Last edited by a moderator:
Do you really want that honor?
Trotter
<img src =/6412.jpg>
Forgiveness that can be revoked is not forgiveness at all. God said that He will remember our sin no more, that it would be as far removed as the east is from the west, and that it will be cast into the depths of the ocean. And now you want to say that God lied about that? That He will take what has already been covered by the blood of Christ and put it back against our account?
Man may revoke the forgiveness he gives, but that does not mean that God does the same.
That's why scriptures says "Who can lay a charge against Gods elect?" That's rhetorical question BTW.
First you have to post the "words of Christ" and then ask the question "is Christ lying"?
By posting your "own words" the question should be "is BobRyan lying"?
Sinful lying implies an evil intent, so I wouldn't say you are lying, at least not intentionally, but you are terribly applying Christ's words for sure.
Now off that rabbit trail and back to my question which you avoided like the plague....
Answer the question and we will see if I am "making stuff up".
Don't answer and you will by default prove that I am right on with what I say you and SDA teach.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude...
What a wonderful conclusion of all this law talk. Praise God!
...that a man is justified by faith...
..."justified by faith"...but does not the law also have something to do with my salvation Paul? Surely I can DO the law ALSO Paul and be justified in some way, some part, how about obeying the law written on my heart?
Hear what I say steaver ........... without the deeds of the law.
Well that would be "faith ALONE" then Paul. Could you say "faith alone" for me Paul so others will not charge me with making stuff up?
Are you that dull of hearing Steaver? What do you think I just said??
"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by steaver
A born again believer in Christ chooses to commit adultery engaging in an affair going on for six months knowing full well this is sin. This believer suddenly dies without ever confessing, repenting and asking God for forgiveness of this transgession.
According to your's and SDA pov of scripture, does this believer enter enternal life?
[/quote]
Originally Posted by BobRyan
I have a better example - a servant of God is forgiven his entire debt of sin - but then he decides some years later to be unforgiven towards his fellow man - Christ said that the Matt 18 example of "Forgiveness revoked" will apply using these words "SO shall My Father do to each one of you IF YOU do not forgive your brother from your heart".
In your Baptist POV is Christ lying?
I see - so you want to stick with scripture itself - and not deal with what someone "says" -- good change of plan.
Matt 18
23 ""For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared[/b] to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
24 ""When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.
25 ""But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
26 ""So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'
27 ""And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
28 ""But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, "Pay back what you owe.'
29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave,I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you[/b], ifeach of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''
Can you answer the question "now"?
I give them ETERNAL LIFE and they SHALL NEVER PERISH.:sleeping_2:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Those who argue that Christ was telling the truth in Matt 18 -
35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''
and so OSAS is merely man-made tradition and not even remotely scripture...
Do not also argue that there is no such thing as God saving someone - just that you can be "severed from Christ" and you can "fall from Grace" and you can have full forgiveness revoked.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave,I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, ifeach of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''
Sometimes we see responses here "as if" to take Christ seriously in Matt 18 is to then deny all promises of eternal life. It is an "either or" logical fallacy that is not required.
in Christ,
Bob
35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''
and so OSAS is merely man-made tradition and not even remotely scripture...
Do not also argue that there is no such thing as God saving someone - just that you can be "severed from Christ" and you can "fall from Grace" and you can have full forgiveness revoked.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave,I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, ifeach of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''
Sometimes we see responses here "as if" to take Christ seriously in Matt 18 is to then deny all promises of eternal life. It is an "either or" logical fallacy that is not required.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
uhhem! The "idea" is to pretend that BobRyan (and 16.8 million of his close friends
is the only one that actually doubts the man-made tradition of OSAS - based on something we find in Matt 18. So that means we don't really need to take the scriptural objections he raises to the OSAS tradition "seriously". Specifically if it comes to something Christ Himself said in the Gospel along the lines of Matt 18.32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''
But in all seriousness - HP brings up a good point - there are a whole lot more Christians out there beside "BobRyan and 16.8 million of his close friends" that actually do not believe in OSAS AND that see a huge problem for the OSAS doctrine when it comes to paying close attention to the words of Christ in Matt 18.
in Christ,
Bob
Last edited by a moderator:
This is not a question of OSAS vs. non-OSAS.
It is a matter of questionable tactics in hermeneutics when it comes to the interpretation of a parable--taking from a parable unjustified doctrine which is not supported by Scripture elsewhere in the Bible.
That has the same value as: The Bible says: "There is no God." And of course it does say that in Psalm 14:1. You can make the Bible say anything you want it to say, and that is exactly what BR is doing.
I see - so you want to stick with scripture itself - and not deal with what someone "says" -- good change of plan.
Matt 18
23 ""For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared[/b] to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
24 ""When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.
25 ""But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
26 ""So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'
27 ""And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
28 ""But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, "Pay back what you owe.'
29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave,I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you[/b], ifeach of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''
I can say that when you build your whole theology on one passage "as you do"....you are not sound. Cults use this tactic also to build their false religions on taking one passage and building on it. I believe you keep calling Eternal Security of the Saints man-made is because you envy their posistion and don't have that assurance yourself.
Last edited by a moderator:
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: That comment stands as clearly outside of the realm of truth, reasonable responses, and Christian charity.
Why would you say that? Cults do it all the time.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Once again DHK appeals to a papal model of empty accusation - as a substitute for dealing with the texts that so clearly refute his views.
Sadly - his model was already tried and well documented in the dark ages - and is not as compelling in the light of day - as he seems to imagine.
But -- to each his own.
You can lead a horse to water...
in Christ,
Bob
Sadly - his model was already tried and well documented in the dark ages - and is not as compelling in the light of day - as he seems to imagine.
But -- to each his own.
You can lead a horse to water...
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
When your response to the teaching of Christ in the Gospel is merely the sad "cults use this tactic" instead of exegeting the text or showing any value at all for "sola scriptura testing" of doctrine, then you turn from the very heart of protestant principle back to the superstitious "name calling" of the dark ages.
As for the idea that you get to ignore at least one chapter in the Bible to stick to your man-made-traditions.
How about Romans 11 "You should FEAR for you stand only by your faith - if He did not spare them - neither will He spare you"
Gal 5:4 "You have fallen from Grace"..."you have been severed from Christ".
This list gets pretty long - so you need to re-think if you are going to be reduced to simply responding to each problem from scripture with nothing more substantive than the dark ages solution of "name calling".
in Christ,
Bob
Your exegesis of Mat.18 has been soundly refuted by two of us on this board. Take the truth that you have expressed here and apply it to yourself. You cannot extricate unknown doctrine from a parable. In fact parables are meant to illustrate, not teach doctrine.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Not by anyone on this board -- though I would welcome such an event.
Jesus begins his Matt 18 teaching with "for this reason the Kingdom of Heaven may be compared to..."
And DHK appears to want to begin Christ's teaching with "for this reason the kingdom of heaven MAY NOT be compared too the following Words of Christ and for this reason Christ's words may be ignored..."
Matt 18
23 ""For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
24 ""When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.
25 ""But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
26 ""So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'
27 ""And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
28 ""But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, "Pay back what you owe.'
29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave,I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''
By the way - it only serves my point - to have the opposers to Christ's teaching in Matt 18 - reduce their argument to nothing better than complaining that Matt 18 is being quoted!!
in Christ,
Bob
Last edited by a moderator:
Would you rather I said man-made like you do? Those in Romans 9 were not in Christ...so that cannot be they were cut off from their relationship with Christ. Romans 9 refers to the jews who rejected the free gift of eternal life.....never did they have it to begin with and lost the opportuniy"cut off". I can see you won't change,but you should stop telling silly childish statements like "man-made" as you do.
Last edited by a moderator: