Was Death for Man Only Spiritual in Genesis?

[ReformedBaptist]

OK so world in Rom 5:12 suddenly means everything,, all life and animals, reptiles, marine life, every thing walks the earth, is the world. THAN Paul said "AND SO" death passed upon ALL men for ALL the World (that is, those in the world that COULD sin) have sinned AND THAT is the world Paul is talking about!! God so loved the world, that God loved all the cats and dogs and cows and sheep and goats and fish and wild life, birds and MANKIND that GOD gave HIS only begotten SON to save ALL life on earth (the WORLD)??

The gospel is to be preached in the whole world - to the farm animals, to the fish, to the wild animals, to the birds that ANY of them whom put their trust in Jesus can be saved!! That's how some of you are rendering world in Rom 5:12.

Darren

Darren,

I am not sure everyone is using the verse as you suggest. I am not. When you look at Romans 5, and verse 12, it certainly is a passage concerning mankind. The context and focus of the chapter is Christ's redemption of sinful man.

But when I do read verse 12, it tells me that sin came into the world by one man, and death by sin. What many of us are concluding is that prior to that man's disobedience, sin was not in the world, and so neither was death.

Can this death and non-death only be with mankind? Yes, it's possible. I am not convinced that would be the case.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Marcia:

Re ur post#18, Isaiah was pointing out that on that day, fear and hostility, negative feelings that came along with sin and replaced the positive qualities of innocence and trust will be restored.

Just my own two cents' worth.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I want to add this bit from John Calvin. I always appreciate this about his writings, what little I have read...

Because the creation itself, etc. He shows how the creation has in hope been made subject to vanity; that is, inasmuch as it shall some time be made free, according to what Isaiah testifies, and what Peter confirms still more clearly. It is then indeed meet for us to consider what a dreadful curse we have deserved, since all created things in themselves blameless, both on earth and in the visible heaven, undergo punishment for our sins; for it has not happened through their own fault, that they are liable to corruption. Thus the condemnation of mankind is imprinted on the heavens, and on the earth, and on all creatures. It hence also appears to what excelling glory the sons of God shall be exalted; for all creatures shall be renewed in order to amplify it, and to render it illustrious.

But he means not that all creatures shall be partakers of the same glory with the sons of God; but that they, according to their nature, shall be participators of a better condition; for God will restore to a perfect state the world, now fallen, together with mankind. But what that perfection will be, as to beasts as well as plants and metals, it is not meet nor right in us to inquire more curiously; for the chief effect of corruption is decay. Some subtle men, but hardly sober-minded, inquire whether all kinds of animals will be immortal; but if reins be given to speculations where will they at length lead us? Let us then be content with this simple doctrine, — that such will be the constitution and the complete order of things, that nothing will be deformed or fading.

The area that I emboldened I think we should all do well to take notice of. And I think it works the other way too. The Bible tells me sin, and hence corruption, came into the world by one man's disobedience, and death by that sin.

We know and do not argue the effect this has had on mankind. We also all agree that the land itself is cursed because of Adam's sin, as punishment to him. And we all know and agree that in the age to come the curse is removed, there is no more death, decay, pain, sorrow, crying, or corruption. It is a happy and joyous estate for man and creation.

Then as to the details of are plants alive, do animals have the breath of life, and such things...these are not the points of Scripture. Let's try to stick with what the Scripture is actually teaching, even if it doesn't satisfy our curiosities.

 

[Darrenss1]

Sport! You are way in over your head. You obviously have no idea what Paul was talking about or what I was talking about. Come up for air before you drown, mature substantially, and then have another try!

I know what Paul was referring to, specifically man, man had not sinned, therefore there was no sin in the earth, therefore man was not subject to death until Adam sinned. Nothing complicated about that at all, sport.

Darren

 

[Darrenss1]

I think because "creation is groaning for redemption," we need to see that as meaning something, especially with the ground and animals being cursed in Gen. 3.
4The LORD God said to the serpent,
"Because you have done this,
Cursed are you more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;

So the animals were cursed; the serpent cursed more -- because of sin. The animals were not cursed before sin; everything was good.

Cursed is the ground because of you;

The land is cursed. So creation (land and animals) are cursed after sin.

Also, Is. 11 gives us a picture that has to do with animals.

There is nothing in the statement that says that being cursed introduced death into the earth to all NON human life. The earth was made for man so everything done to all the earth was as a consequence of Adam's sin, that did not mean that ALL life was created immortal and could not die even if by accident. So if Adam accident stepped on an ant the ant could not die, the ant was immortal.

Darren

 

[Darrenss1]

Darren,

I am not sure everyone is using the verse as you suggest. I am not. When you look at Romans 5, and verse 12, it certainly is a passage concerning mankind. The context and focus of the chapter is Christ's redemption of sinful man.

My point is in Romans Paul uses the word world 12 times, 3 of the 12 the word world is used in the broader context, the rest of the time "World" means mankind, as it does in the context of Romans 5:12-13.

Darren

 

[Marcia]

Marcia:

Re ur post#18, Isaiah was pointing out that on that day, fear and hostility, negative feelings that came along with sin and replaced the positive qualities of innocence and trust will be restored.

Just my own two cents' worth.

So you don't take this literally?

6And the wolf will dwell with the lamb,
And the leopard will lie down with the young goat,
And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
And a little boy will lead them.
7Also the cow and the bear will graze,
Their young will lie down together,
And the lion will eat straw like the ox.

I do.

 

[Marcia]

There is nothing in the statement that says that being cursed introduced death into the earth to all NON human life. The earth was made for man so everything done to all the earth was as a consequence of Adam's sin, that did not mean that ALL life was created immortal and could not die even if by accident. So if Adam accident stepped on an ant the ant could not die, the ant was immortal.

Darren

And there is nothing there that says death was not introduced to non-human life. And I think Rom. 8 indicates that death and decay to creation was introduced through man's sin. Since we see no death of anything before sin, and since there is no strong indication that there was death before sin, then it is reasonable to conclude, esp. based on Romans 8, that death was part of the curse on creation.

 

[OldRegular]

I know what Paul was referring to, specifically man, man had not sinned, therefore there was no sin in the earth, therefore man was not subject to death until Adam sinned. Nothing complicated about that at all, sport.

Darren

Then why the long tirade?

 

[Darrenss1]

And there is nothing there that says death was not introduced to non-human life. And I think Rom. 8 indicates that death and decay to creation was introduced through man's sin. Since we see no death of anything before sin, and since there is no strong indication that there was death before sin, then it is reasonable to conclude, esp. based on Romans 8, that death was part of the curse on creation.

Somewhere out of this short statement you get, all life on earth could not die until Adam sinned? Huh?

Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

This is allegorical language, creation doesn't groan, wait, or long, when you speak of creation what example is there? The sky? The earth? Mountains? Creatures? The bible teaches when death came in for mankind but its not a slamdunk to use that same fact for every other life form. Death of mankind is unique from all other life on the planet, howbeit, when MAN'S last enemy is put away, that being DEATH that is not a cased closed reference for ALL other life because all other life has been working on another level to mankind on this planet.

I forgot to ask, how do you know there was no death of any life on the planet before the fall? You said, "since we see no death of ANYTHING before sin"?? I just love it when things are spoken of as fact without providing a sufficient answer.

Darren

 

[Darrenss1]

Then why the long tirade?

Tirade, interesting choice of word. Feel free to make a case of your own if you like, ad hominems will get you no where. Its called a discussion, that is 2-10 way communication, I have my say just like everyone else does.

Darren

 

[Marcia]

Somewhere out of this short statement you get, all life on earth could not die until Adam sinned? Huh?

What's the "huh" for??

It's not just that statement; I posted other things supporting this view as well.

Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

This is allegorical language, creation doesn't groan, wait, or long, when you speak of creation what example is there? The sky? The earth? Mountains? Creatures?

It's not allegorical; it's a metaphor. We've been over this before.

The bible teaches when death came in for mankind but its not a slamdunk to use that same fact for every other life form. Death of mankind is unique from all other life on the planet, howbeit, when MAN'S last enemy is put away, that being DEATH that is not a cased closed reference for ALL other life because all other life has been working on another level to mankind on this planet.

Where is the scripture supporting this? This is you opinion, something you berated me for. I Cor. 15:26 does not say "man's last enemy." It says "the last enemy." Just saying.

I forgot to ask, how do you know there was no death of any life on the planet before the fall? You said, "since we see no death of ANYTHING before sin"?? .

The Bible does not show us death before sin. You yourself are supporting a view but have offered no scripture for it. I have posted scriptures supporting the view that death came through sin. Others here have done so as well.

I just love it when things are spoken of as fact without providing a sufficient answer

Interesting that you should say this. You are not persuading me to your view with any scripture.

 

[Darrenss1]

The Bible does not show us death before sin. You yourself are supporting a view but have offered no scripture for it. I have posted scriptures supporting the view that death came through sin. Others here have done so as well.

Yes but the assumptions are from the starting position. IF death of all life on earth was possible as the default original position (and God said it was good) than the sin of Adam impacts in a slightly different way than to think that NO death existed at all for any life on the planet. The evidence used to prove that death came to all life on the planet from Adams sin to me lacks proper support. That's certainly what I'm seeing here.

Darren

 

[zrs6v4]

As of today I am the 3rd vote for unsure. I still havent had a really good answer as to where the word "death" also includes physical death along with spiritual. As I said onthe other thread. This discussion would be simple if only someone in Scripture would describe what he means by death. In my opinion there is no obvious answer. On a side note I do think brown recluse spiders are a result of sin, but thats just me..

 

[Marcia]

Yes but the assumptions are from the starting position. IF death of all life on earth was possible as the default original position (and God said it was good) than the sin of Adam impacts in a slightly different way than to think that NO death existed at all for any life on the planet. The evidence used to prove that death came to all life on the planet from Adams sin to me lacks proper support. That's certainly what I'm seeing here.

Darren

But that's just speculation. You have offered no biblical evidence for the view that God said physical death was good. The evidence is on the other side, as I said before. It seems you just deny that there is evidence.

 

[Marcia]

As of today I am the 3rd vote for unsure. I still havent had a really good answer as to where the word "death" also includes physical death along with spiritual. As I said onthe other thread. This discussion would be simple if only someone in Scripture would describe what he means by death. In my opinion there is no obvious answer. On a side note I do think brown recluse spiders are a result of sin, but thats just me..

Death is separation: physical death is separation of the body from the immaterial self (soul/spirit/mind)

Spiritual death is separation from God.

If God created and said it was good, I find it hard to believe that included getting old and dying is a good thing. How would Adam and Eve have died? By getting old? How can getting old, which usually involves unpleasant experiences (I hear), be good?

I still say 1 Cor 15 is another evidence for physical death being overcome as a result of the fall by Jesus' bodily resurrection. It says he conquered death this way - it does not make sense it would just be spiritual death, imo. If it was just spiritual death, as someone else here asked, then why not just a spiritual resurrection?

 

[OldRegular]

My initial post #9.

Eve yielding to temptation; Adam sinned with deliberate intent; thus death entered the creation of God, both physical death and spiritual death. With spiritual death Adam and Eve also lost the unfettered ability to freely choose; that ability was now marred by the influence of their sinful nature. That nature which had been created upright [Ecclesiastes 7:29] was, because of willful rebellion against God, a nature that was in bondage to sin. When Adam and Eve sinned they immediately suffered spiritual death, alienation from God. At the same time those natural processes that result in physical death were set in motion and Adam and Eve slowly began to die.

Moreover, through the rebellion of Adam all successive generations of mankind have been heirs to a nature in bondage to sin, alienated toward God and subject to the wrath of God. The Apostle Paul tells us that death came not only to Adam and Eve but that, because of their transgression, death came to all mankind. All descendants of Adam and Eve are heirs not only to physical death but to spiritual death.

Romans 5:12, KJV
12. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Darrenss1 initial response #12.

Originally Posted by OldRegular
Romans 5:12, KJV
12. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

OK so world in Rom 5:12 suddenly means everything,, all life and animals, reptiles, marine life, every thing walks the earth, is the world. THAN Paul said "AND SO" death passed upon ALL men for ALL the World (that is, those in the world that COULD sin) have sinned AND THAT is the world Paul is talking about!! God so loved the world, that God loved all the cats and dogs and cows and sheep and goats and fish and wild life, birds and MANKIND that GOD gave HIS only begotten SON to save ALL life on earth (the WORLD)??

The gospel is to be preached in the whole world - to the farm animals, to the fish, to the wild animals, to the birds that ANY of them whom put their trust in Jesus can be saved!! That's how some of you are rendering world in Rom 5:12.

Darren

To which I responded in Post#19.

Sport! You are way in over your head. You obviously have no idea what Paul was talking about or what I was talking about. Come up for air before you drown, mature substantially, and then have another try!

Darrenss1 countered with Post #

I know what Paul was referring to, specifically man, man had not sinned, therefore there was no sin in the earth, therefore man was not subject to death until Adam sinned. Nothing complicated about that at all, sport.

I ask a simple question in post # 29 below regarding the tirade of Darrenss1 in his post #12 which really responded to nothing I said in my initial post #9 but made asinine remarks concerning the preaching the Gospel to animals which I did not even mention.

Then why the long tirade?

To which Darrenss1 responded in post #31.

Tirade, interesting choice of word. Feel free to make a case of your own if you like, ad hominems will get you no where. Its called a discussion, that is 2-10 way communication, I have my say just like everyone else does.

Darren

So Darreness1 raises the question of “ad hominems”. I assume he is referring to his childish remarks in his post #12 as I pointed out in my post #19.

From time to time I will present the sequence of posts so folks can understand the remarks that some make. Takes a little extra time but perhaps it is worthwhile.

 

[Winman]

I am still not completely decided on this question. I believe Adam and Eve spritually died the very day they sinned. They were afraid of God and ashamed and hid themselves from his presence.

Now, physical death is more difficult. God does say they will return to the dust from which they were taken in Gen 3:19. But then in Gen 3:22 he says if they were to eat from the tree of life they would live forever. Then God banishes them from the garden and places Cherubims and a flaming sword to keep it. By this action God did prevent them from physically living forever.

So, I guess I would have to go with both spiritual and physical death. If they had not sinned they would have not spiritually died, and they would have not been banished from the garden and tree of life either.

I've always wondered about the tree of life. Do you have to eat of it one single time to live forever, or do you have to eat of it continuously? I lean toward continuously because of what is shown in Revelations.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Notice the tree of life bares twelve different types of fruit, a different one for each month. From this I get the impression the tree will be eaten from continuously as opposed to one single time. It also says it's leaves are for the healing of the nations. This makes me wonder if bacteria will still exist. It must, for our physical bodies require bacteria for some functions like digestion. Perhaps our incorruptable bodies will still need the same. And perhaps a person can still injure himself and need healing?

Notice in verse 3 it says there will be no more curse. I believe this to be the curse of Gen 3:19 where God cursed the ground. I believe when God cursed the ground that death passed upon the physical creation, this is probably where the laws of thermodynamics came into being. If so, theses laws will be reversed and no longer will the creation be subject to aging and death.

All interesting things to think about, but we will likely never know all the answers till we get there.

 

[zrs6v4]

Winman- what is the Tree of Life? maybe this is thread worthy.

 

[Darrenss1]

I am still not completely decided on this question. I believe Adam and Eve spritually died the very day they sinned. They were afraid of God and ashamed and hid themselves from his presence.

Now, physical death is more difficult. God does say they will return to the dust from which they were taken in Gen 3:19. But then in Gen 3:22 he says if they were to eat from the tree of life they would live forever. Then God banishes them from the garden and places Cherubims and a flaming sword to keep it. By this action God did prevent them from physically living forever.

So, I guess I would have to go with both spiritual and physical death. If they had not sinned they would have not spiritually died, and they would have not been banished from the garden and tree of life either.

I've always wondered about the tree of life. Do you have to eat of it one single time to live forever, or do you have to eat of it continuously? I lean toward continuously because of what is shown in Revelations.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Notice the tree of life bares twelve different types of fruit, a different one for each month. From this I get the impression the tree will be eaten from continuously as opposed to one single time. It also says it's leaves are for the healing of the nations. This makes me wonder if bacteria will still exist. It must, for our physical bodies require bacteria for some functions like digestion. Perhaps our incorruptable bodies will still need the same. And perhaps a person can still injure himself and need healing?

Notice in verse 3 it says there will be no more curse. I believe this to be the curse of Gen 3:19 where God cursed the ground. I believe when God cursed the ground that death passed upon the physical creation, this is probably where the laws of thermodynamics came into being. If so, theses laws will be reversed and no longer will the creation be subject to aging and death.

All interesting things to think about, but we will likely never know all the answers till we get there.

Excellent comments!! I agree 100%!! :thumbs:

Darren