Was Isaac Watts a Pre-Trib-Dispensationalist?

[DHK]

You believe in the dispensation of Grace don't you. You believe in a Jewish millennium and the restoration of National Israel don't you! Darby got the 7th dispensation out of Isaiah 32! Where did you get it!

Check out post #2 in the thread "Out of Whose Womb"!

I know what Watts said in the link you so graciously provided. I have been remiss in not thanking you!

Who said the Millennium was "Jewish"?

 

[OldRegular]

Who said the Millennium was "Jewish"?

Walvoord, page391, Major Bible prophecies. Wallboard also teaches in Major Bible Prophecies that David will reign as coregent with Jesus Christ in the millennial kingdom. He writes [page 393]

Though many have tried to explain away this passage [Ezekiel 37:24-25], it obviously requires the Second Coming of Christ, the establishment of David’s kingdom on earth, the resurrection of David, and David’s sharing the throne of Israel as coregent with Christ.

May I say that Walvoord is one of the preeminent scholars in pre-trib-dispensationalism.

 

[DHK]

Walvoord, page391, Major Bible prophecies. Wallboard also teaches in Major Bible Prophecies that David will reign as coregent with Jesus Christ in the millennial kingdom. He writes [page 393]

May I say that Walvoord is one of the preeminent scholars in pre-trib-dispensationalism.

Do I care?
I don't believe the Bible teaches that. And I don't believe that.
And I didn't say anything about a "Jewish Millennial Kingdom," so don't go pinning some belief on me, AGAIN, that I don't believe. This is quite habitual with you.

 

[Rippon]

so don't go pinning some belief on me, AGAIN, that I don't believe.

How about stopping your hypocrisy DHK.

How about all the times you have said that Calvinists:

think that all of us are robots
that what we regard as biblical predestination is no different than Islamic fatalism
that God just picks out the ones he wants to save in a random fashion
that "our God" is not loving or fair

Ad infinitum

This is quite habitual with you.

Indeed it is --and you have to vow to better yourself by ceasing to practice it.

 

[convicted1]

Guys, neither side will relent....



Why even bother? If you're ready to meet Him, wherever He is, you'll be happy..


I am staunchly amill, but if He sets us His Kingdom here, as long as I am there with Him, I won't be sad in the least...

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Its "all about the Jew's, bout the Jew's .....real trouble ":laugh::thumbs:

 

[tyndale1946]

Guys, neither side will relent....



Why even bother? If you're ready to meet Him, wherever He is, you'll be happy..


I am staunchly amill, but if He sets us His Kingdom here, as long as I am there with Him, I won't be sad in the least...

I agree... That's why my Dad was the rarest of all millennianlist he was a panmillennialist?.... No mater what position you hold it will all pan out in the end!... Brother Glen

 

[revmwc]

Guys, neither side will relent....



Why even bother? If you're ready to meet Him, wherever He is, you'll be happy..


I am staunchly amill, but if He sets us His Kingdom here, as long as I am there with Him, I won't be sad in the least...

Hey it's fun, I enjoy the discussions when they stay on topic, but they hardly ever do. Then it gives me a lot of daily study time. The fact of the matter is neither can prove their point 100%, but in one thread it has been shown that 3 men from around A.D. 150-350 taught a pre-trib view.

 

[OldRegular]

Do I care?
I don't believe the Bible teaches that. And I don't believe that.
And I didn't say anything about a "Jewish Millennial Kingdom," so don't go pinning some belief on me, AGAIN, that I don't believe. This is quite habitual with you.

It seems to be beyond your comprehension that I am talking about the false doctrine of pre-trib-dispensationalism of which "blessedwife318" writes:{http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=99519}

Also there was no shying away from the fact that Darby was the one that systematized Dispensational teaching and the Scofield was influential in getting it to the masses.

But live with it DHK!

 

[OldRegular]

Hey it's fun, I enjoy the discussions when they stay on topic, but they hardly ever do. Then it gives me a lot of daily study time. The fact of the matter is neither can prove their point 100%, but in one thread it has been shown that 3 men from around A.D. 150-350 taught a pre-trib view.

:laugh:-:laugh:-:laugh:-:laugh:

 

[DHK]

It seems to be beyond your comprehension that I am talking about the false doctrine of pre-trib-dispensationalism of which "blessedwife318" writes:{http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=99519}

And that indeed is the problem, isn't it?
Not everyone here is a "Darbyite," a follower of Scofield, or even of Watts.
We keep telling you that. But your eternal problem is that you must lump us all together as a follower of one of these men instead of actually finding out what we believe. Do you actually know how many kind of dispensationalists there are: not from a book, but from asking others on the board. How about as many as there are Baptists. But you won't consider that because you refuse to interact with individuals to find out what they believe.

 

[OldRegular]

And that indeed is the problem, isn't it?
Not everyone here is a "Darbyite," a follower of Scofield, or even of Watts.
We keep telling you that. But your eternal problem is that you must lump us all together as a follower of one of these men instead of actually finding out what we believe. Do you actually know how many kind of dispensationalists there are: not from a book, but from asking others on the board. How about as many as there are Baptists. But you won't consider that because you refuse to interact with individuals to find out what they believe.

I still thank you for providing the link to Watts. I will bookmark it if I haven't already!

 

[Yeshua1]

Gill further says:

He firmly believes that he will be taken when Christ comes and thus escape the fury of the Antichrist (or The Tribulation).
Gill believed in a pre-trib rapture. There is no doubt about this.

cannot be true, for he existed before darby even wrote!

Or else was it already known of and taught by some before Darby, eh?

 

[OldRegular]

cannot be true, for he existed before darby even wrote!

Or else was it already known of and taught by some before Darby, eh?

Gills commentary on 1 Thessalonians 4:17

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Ver. 17. Then we which are alive and remain, &c.] see Gill on "1Th 4:15".

shall be caught up; suddenly, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, and with force and power; by the power of Christ, and by the ministry and means of the holy angels; and to which rapture will contribute, the agility which the bodies both of the raised and changed saints will have: and this rapture of the living saints will be

together with them; with the dead in Christ, that will then be raised; so that the one will not come before the other, or the one be sooner with Christ than the other; but the one being raised and the other changed, they will be joined in one company and general assembly, and be caught up together:

in the clouds; the same clouds perhaps in which Christ will come, will be let down to take them up; these will be the chariots, in which they will be carried up to him; and thus, as at our Lord's ascension a cloud received him, and in it he was carried up out of the sight of men, so at this time will all the saints ride up in the clouds of heaven:

to meet the Lord in the air; whither he will descend, and will then clear the regions of the air of Satan, and his posse of devils, which now rove about there, watching all opportunities, and taking all advantages to do mischief on earth; these shall then fall like lightning from heaven, and be bound and shut up in the bottomless pit, till the thousand years are ended: here Christ will stop, and will be visible to all, and as easily discerned by all, good and bad, as the body of the sun at noonday; as yet he will not descend on earth, because it is not fit to receive him; but when that and its works are burnt up, and it is purged and purified by fire, and become a new earth, he will descend upon it, and dwell with his saints in it: and this suggests another reason why he will stay in the air, and his saints shall meet him there, and whom he will take up with him into the third heaven, till the general conflagration and burning of the world is over, and to preserve them from it; and then shall all the elect of God descend from heaven as a bride adorned for her husband, and he with them, and the tabernacle of God shall be with men; see Re 21:1-3. The resurrection by the Mahometans is called hlla aql {q}, "a meeting of God", or a going to meet God:

and so shall we ever be with the Lord; now the saints are with him at times, and have communion with him, but not always; but then they shall be ever with him; wherever he is; first in the air, where they shall meet him; then in the third heaven, where they shall go up with him; then on earth, where they shall descend and reign with him a thousand years; and then in the ultimate glory to all eternity: and this will be the issue and accomplishment of the counsel and covenant of grace, of the sufferings and death of Christ, and of his preparations and prayers.

{q} Alkoran, Surat. 6. v. 31. p. 113. Ed. Hinckelman.

It is obvious from the above, to anyone who has not been irrevocably brainwashed, that Gill did not believe in a pre-trib "snatching away" of the Church. He believed in a millennial reign on a redeemed or New earth. Only the Church would dwell on this New earth. His comment:

but when that and its works are burnt up, and it is purged and purified by fire, and become a new earth, he will descend upon it, and dwell with his saints in it: and this suggests another reason why he will stay in the air, and his saints shall meet him there, and whom he will take up with him into the third heaven, till the general conflagration and burning of the world is over, and to preserve them from it; and then shall all the elect of God descend from heaven as a bride adorned for her husband, and he with them, and the tabernacle of God shall be with men; see Re 21:1-3.

is similar to what Peter talks about in 2 Peter 2:1-14. {http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=99468}

 

[OldRegular]

And that indeed is the problem, isn't it?
Not everyone here is a "Darbyite," a follower of Scofield, or even of Watts.
We keep telling you that. But your eternal problem is that you must lump us all together as a follower of one of these men instead of actually finding out what we believe. Do you actually know how many kind of dispensationalists there are: not from a book, but from asking others on the board. How about as many as there are Baptists. But you won't consider that because you refuse to interact with individuals to find out what they believe.

As I recall you lump all who believe in the Doctrines of Sovereign Election and Grace into Calvinism and then attempt to link them to Augustine! Frankly I don't care. I can defend my beliefs from Scripture but the pre-trib-dispensational doctrine developed by Darby and popularized in this country by Scofield cannot. Furthermore, the doctrine that the Church is a parenthesis or intercalation in GOD's program for Israel, the natural consequence of pre-trib doctrine, is an affront to GOD!

Frankly the only thing most pre-trib-dispensationalists on this Forum want to talk about is the "snatching" away of the Church and accusing those who reject this doctrine of making a liar out of GOD, not believing the Bible, not studying the Bible, and borderline questioning their Salvation. I have been on this Forum 10+ years and that is the response of most pre-tribbers to the "Gentiles"! There are a few exceptions, HankD and blessedwife318. There was also one on the Board last summer who wanted to seriously discuss his views but I guess my remarks to some of the pre-tribbers turned him off!

 

[Darrell C]

Frankly the only thing most pre-trib-dispensationalists on this Forum want to talk about is the "snatching" away of the Church

Not true.

And the threads prove that.

I have tried to talk with you about many various issues yet you refuse to do so.

There was also one on the Board last summer who wanted to seriously discuss his views but I guess my remarks to some of the pre-tribbers turned him off!

I am a little surprised you admit this.

Good for you, OR.


God bless.

 

[DHK]

As I recall you lump all who believe in the Doctrines of Sovereign Election and Grace into Calvinism and then attempt to link them to Augustine! Frankly I don't care. I can defend my beliefs from Scripture but the pre-trib-dispensational doctrine developed by Darby and popularized in this country by Scofield cannot. Furthermore, the doctrine that the Church is a parenthesis or intercalation in GOD's program for Israel, the natural consequence of pre-trib doctrine, is an affront to GOD!

Believe what you want. I don't believe in a parenthesis church as you put it. It continues to be a false accusation. Frankly, you never stop to ask what I believe so you don't know.

Frankly the only thing most pre-trib-dispensationalists on this Forum want to talk about is the "snatching" away of the Church and accusing those who reject this doctrine of making a liar out of GOD, not believing the Bible, not studying the Bible, and borderline questioning their Salvation.

Of course that is not true, and you know it.

I have been on this Forum 10+ years and that is the response of most pre-tribbers to the "Gentiles"! There are a few exceptions, HankD and blessedwife318. There was also one on the Board last summer who wanted to seriously discuss his views but I guess my remarks to some of the pre-tribbers turned him off!

There are many that will discuss this topic with you in quite a civil manner.
But when they are constantly labeled as Darbyites, and the Darby is slandered as having extra revelation because he hit his head on a rock, your goal is to simply make us all foolish without the use of the Bible at all. That is ad hominem. It is not debate.
Secondly, your repeated emphasis of your hatred of our position as heresy and the inference as us as heretics is also not debate. It is simply more ad hominem. IMO you have lost before you have started. Revmitchell has been very patient with you showing how others have believed the pretrib position before Darby, and Hank came out with some good evidence as well, after having stated that he went through extensive research of the ECF. But for some reason you still won't accept their research.

I still don't believe in a parenthesis church. Don't accuse me of that belief. If you want to know why you will have to figure it out on your own, or be willing to have a civil discussion on it.

 

[OldRegular]

Believe what you want. I don't believe in a parenthesis church as you put it. It continues to be a false accusation. Frankly, you never stop to ask what I believe so you don't know.

Of course that is not true, and you know it.

There are many that will discuss this topic with you in quite a civil manner.
But when they are constantly labeled as Darbyites, and the Darby is slandered as having extra revelation because he hit his head on a rock, your goal is to simply make us all foolish without the use of the Bible at all. That is ad hominem. It is not debate.
Secondly, your repeated emphasis of your hatred of our position as heresy and the inference as us as heretics is also not debate. It is simply more ad hominem. IMO you have lost before you have started. Revmitchell has been very patient with you showing how others have believed the pretrib position before Darby, and Hank came out with some good evidence as well, after having stated that he went through extensive research of the ECF. But for some reason you still won't accept their research.

I still don't believe in a parenthesis church. Don't accuse me of that belief. If you want to know why you will have to figure it out on your own, or be willing to have a civil discussion on it.

Think what you will DHK. I have been verbally abused on this BB by you and pre-tribbers like DC for 10+ years. Have you handed out demerits to any of them?

I have always been very careful not to label pre-trib-dispensdationalism as heretical. I have called it false doctrine and labeled the doctrine of a "parenthesis" Church as blasphemous, a term Dr Bob has forbidden.

Furthermore, I have never said that Darby hit his head on a rock. I said he had a riding accident and early on thought he had been thrown. Turns out after further reading that apparently his leg was crushed between a post and the horse.

Pre-trib-dispensationalism has done nothing but splinter the evangelical churches in this country. My understanding is that it is far less successful in its country of origin. If it were not a false doctrine, conceived in a manner similar to Mormonism, Jehovah'd Witnesses, Christian Science, and the Seventh Day Adventist, that would be acceptable. But it is a false doctrine. There are many who follow that doctrine who insist that national Israel is still the chosen people of GOD, even those of Arminian persuasion. That false belief has influenced our foreign policy to a substantial degree. I have on many occasions said on this BB that I support the nation Israel, not for religious reasons, but because they are the lone democracy in the Middle East and because they are considered enemies by Islam.

So believe what you will about me DHK, I don't really care. I have let the attempted insults of the Rapture Ready people roll of my back since I have been a Christian in a sea of Rapture Ready folks. Those on this Forum who attempt to insult me are childish by comparison!

 

[DHK]

Think what you will DHK. I have been verbally abused on this BB by you and pre-tribbers like DC for 10+ years. Have you handed out demerits to any of them?

I hand out demerits for those who continue to practice libel and call people names despite repeated warnings not to. My dealings with people are on a one-to-one basis.

I have always been very careful not to label pre-trib-dispensdationalism as heretical. I have called it false doctrine and labeled the doctrine of a "parenthesis" Church as blasphemous, a term Dr Bob has forbidden.

That is right, and we can show where you have used both of those terms, even though forbidden.

Furthermore, I have never said that Darby hit his head on a rock. I said he had a riding accident and early on thought he had been thrown. Turns out after further reading that apparently his leg was crushed between a post and the horse.

And consequently had "new revelation" because of his accident. The story has been repeated many times. It wasn't done to flatter Darby was it. In fact it was needless information that contributed nothing to a civil conversation.

Pre-trib-dispensationalism has done nothing but splinter the evangelical churches in this country. My understanding is that it is far less successful in its country of origin. If it were not a false doctrine, conceived in a manner similar to Mormonism, Jehovah'd Witnesses, Christian Science, and the Seventh Day Adventist, that would be acceptable. But it is a false doctrine.

That is simply your opinion. I have seen personally that the DoG that you hold to, commonly called Calvinism, enter into a church, split it, and then continue to decimate the church membership to the extent that the church sold the building and the few remaining members meet in a community hall. That has happened more than once. It doesn't give me much respect for Calvinism as a theology that does any positive good.

There are many who follow that doctrine who insist that national Israel is still the chosen people of GOD, even those of Arminian persuasion. That false belief has influenced our foreign policy to a substantial degree. I have on many occasions said on this BB that I support the nation Israel, not for religious reasons, but because they are the lone democracy in the Middle East and because they are considered enemies by Islam.

That is no problem with me.

So believe what you will about me DHK, I don't really care. I have let the attempted insults of the Rapture Ready people roll of my back since I have been a Christian in a sea of Rapture Ready folks. Those on this Forum who attempt to insult me are childish by comparison!

The attempts to insult have been by both sides--you must agree. From reading the threads I believe they come from you and a couple of other Calvinists more than from others. However, civil discussion is still possible.

 

[Darrell C]

Think what you will DHK. I have been verbally abused on this BB by you and pre-tribbers like DC for 10+ years.

Please quote my verbal abuse.


God bless.