How is God doing whatever he has chosen to do wicked? God is JUST in WHATEVER He does! He calls sin sin because he can! He formed the light and the darkness, and creates properity AND calamity. Is it because you all think it isn't fair? Read Romans 9. :BangHead:
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Was it God's will for Adam to Sin ?
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How is God doing whatever he has chosen to do wicked? God is JUST in WHATEVER He does! He calls sin sin because he can! He formed the light and the darkness, and creates properity AND calamity. Is it because you all think it isn't fair? Read Romans 9. :BangHead:
Calamity is not sin. A dark sky is not sin.
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Colossians 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. (ESV)
So you just quote scripture with no explanation. Are you still saying God causes us to sin? You tried to use calamity and dark sky to prove God is responsible for sin. Calamity and dark sky are not sins.
Heavenly Pilgrim
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HP: If you think Romans 9 gives support for your false notions above, you are simply deceived. Sin is sin because it is at antipodes with God and His nature. One could reason from your statement above that sin could be good and good could be sin. You have lost all moral understanding period. Sorry, but you are purporting absolute nonsense.
You and your friend there have completely misunderstood me, so I will plainly state my case.
If it was not God's will that Adam fall into sin (ie. God's will that Adam do what He hate, sin), then God is not God. If so, that god is a fallible, untrustworthy, unpraiseworthy failure. There is no such god, there is only the absolutley Soveriegn God of the Bible. You that say I have lost all moral understanding, prove to me that God DID NOT decree, will, or otherwise predetermine the fall of Adam. I would happily recant if you can show me where it says in the Bible that God IS NOT in control of everything, including sin.
To quote Cheung:
If not for the fact that God's absolute
sovereignty is repugnant to sinful human intuition, made defective by the noetic effects of
sin, the "author of sin" question would have no logical entry point into theological
discussions at all.sovereignty is repugnant to sinful human intuition, made defective by the noetic effects of
sin, the "author of sin" question would have no logical entry point into theological
As I don't have the time right away to answer everymisunderstanding (or slander) I really would encourage you two to read "The Author of Sin" and "The Problem of Evil" by Vincent Cheung. It's very instructive, and biblical.
Romans 9:19 -21
19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
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Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: So you have created an idea of God on your own, and say in essence, If God does not fit into the box I make for Him, He is not God. Please Dustin. Consider your remark carefully.
HP: You have started from a premise of your own making, and then start to reason from it. Do you really think it wise to do so?
HP: No where in Scripture does it present a God as you make Him out to be. Again, you start by a self made notion defining God as you see Him, and then measure all other thoughts to it. You are merely reasoning in a circle, and ending in nonsense.
HP: Adam sinned. God is Holy and does not sin nor tempt others to sin according to Scripture. In God there is no darkness or sin at all. God simply endowed sentient creatures with some of the creative ability H has, and granted to them the power to be the first cause of their intents and subsequent actions. Sin is the results not of God or His will, but of men and angels and their misuse of the freedom and abilities God allowed them to have.
HP: God will eventually lock Satan up for ever in hell with the angels and men that followed him in his rebellion. There is not one Scripture that indicates in any manner that God is the source of sin period. You are reading things written by others that are not in accordance to truth. Again, you are reasoning from the unfounded presupposition of what you see as God's sovereignty and control, NOT from Scripture or reason.
HP: Romans 9 is NOT dealing with the sin of individuals here in the least. The author is speaking concerning the special privileges God granted to the nation Israel as opposed to other nations. It in no wise states God makes some sinners and some righteous. God is NOT a respecter of persons but He can and does choose for reasons known only to himself to bestow special blessings on some nations and with hold it from others as He did with the nations Israel and the nation of Esau.
God is sovereign, and in that aspect He has a Will to directly determine events to happen, be the cause of it, or else has a permissive Will, but in all cases, he has predestined/determined the end result, nothing has even happened beyond his ability to know it or to affect it IF He so desired!
I agree. My thing is if God is totally sovereign, where is the problem with saying he created sin? God is NOT subject to any of His creation. We may think, "Since God doesn't sin, He couldn't have created sin or the ability to sin." God creating sin is NOT a sin on God's part, it's a means to the end of glorifying Christ by raising up elect fallen people, giving them the gift of faith (in Christ's person and work) and repentance (from sin and UNBELIEF), and showing them His eternal love and favor by glorifying them through Christ.
With out sin, there is no fall.
Without the fall, there is no judgement.
Without judgement, there is no need for a Savior.
(I know this isn't very extensive, but you should be able to follow.)
God isn't subject to time, space, or a universal or eternal law. He created them.
THAT is taking God out of the proverbial "box".
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Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: it is amazing to me that those touting the sovereignty of God the loudest, limit God in that sovereignty to the ability of for knowing matters of necessity only. They completely ignore the possibility of God's foreknowledge knowing matters of perfect choice or liberty as well as those of necessity. They reason if God foreknows it it must be of necessity that comes to pass. I asked why? Why could God not foreknow matters not of necessity, matters of perfect choice as well as matters of necessity?
I thought God's ways were higher than our ways. Our for knowledge is indeed limited to matters of necessity, but why should I limit God's foreknowledge in the same manner that our foreknowledge works?
Of a truth God is able to foreknow matters of perfect choice as well as matters of necessity. God's foreknowledge in no way necessitates any choice in which blame or praise is predicated of an individuals intents and subsequent actions. It would be as ludicrous to blame one for the color of their hair from birth as it would be to blame one for actions that were necessitated because of God's foreknowledge knowing it would come to pass.
Because God foreknows that sin and wickedness will take place by no means necessitates that God is the author of sin as some have suggested.
Calvinist, and those leaning hard towards Calvinism, that reason because God foreknows something it must of necessity come to pass, are doing so from sheer conjecture unfounded in Scripture or reason. It is a fundamental error in their thinking lying at the very heart of the faulty system of theology/philosophy they hold to.
Of a truth, God is able to foreknow matters of perfect choice and not only those of necessity. God clearly has abilities in the area of foreknowledge that far surpass the manner in which finite man foreknow. There is absolutely no reason to conclude that because God foreknows, God determines or brings it to pass.
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God foreknows what the the Lost will chose to do, but He foreknows His elect because He caused their election to have occured!
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: They were lost before they knew anything, let alone choose anything. Either they are one of the elect or the possibility never existed that they could ever have been one of the elect, when you start from moral depravity from birth and the notion of only the elect being chosen. You have painted the horrible blight on the character of God of double predestination to a tee just as all do following Calvinism, admitting to it or not.
In your paradigm you are denying the omniscience of God. Did God know who would get saved and who would not? Yes or no?
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
--What does this verse mean to you?
One cannot dismiss election because it is taught in the Bible. The words are used. They are there. It cannot be denied.
God knew who would be saved and who would not be saved, and on that basis, the basis of his sovereign foreknowledge gave the ones that he knew would be saved the choice to believe. In fact he gives all the choice to believe. He simply knows ahead of time who will make what choice.
Election always is directed to the believer.
Election in no way denies the depravity of man. We still are born with a depraved nature. We sin. When given the choice it is not hard to keep from sinning. It is easy to give into that depraved nature. And saved or not, we will always have it with us.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Absolutely God knows. I do not deny His Omniscience in the least.
In your paradigm, God's foreknowledge is limited to foreknowing things of necessity. In mine I see God as able to foreknow matters of perfect choice.
Certainly election is taught in Scripture, but not according to the Calvinistic paradigm. Foreknowledge drives the end in the Calvinistic view, while perfect choice by those salvation is offered to in reality determines who is and who will not be saved, and who was and was not elected by God to salvation.
I hold that God can and does foreknow those that will voluntarily, by being a first cause of their choices, choose to obey the stated conditions of salvation God sets forth, without which no one can be saved. All systems of determinism such as Calvinism would say that God determined who is and who is not of the elect apart from and antecedent to any choices made by man. In reality what they call 'choice' or 'freedom to choose' is a mere sophism, for if their paradigm is correct, all choice made by man were in fact predetermined and 'caused' to come to fruition by God Himself. Their so-called freedom to choose and choice are not freedom or choice period on the part of man, but rather are simply necessitated results of God's causation.
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Salvation is a gift to be received. A gift has no conditions.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Simply not the case with salvation. Besides, any gift can have stated conditions.
Scripture is clear that God calls upon man to exercise his will in turning from sin in repentance, exercising faith in the atonement, and to remain faithful until the end in obedience. You kick against the pricks when you try and deny these foundational conditions of salvation, without which no one shall be saved.
This is not Christianity. It is a religion of works like Islam or Hinduism.
It is a religion where one must work for their salvation. That is not what Christianity teaches. It teaches the opposite--that salvation is by grace through faith and not of works. You apparently don't believe that.
Do you think stop cheating on your wife is a work? Do you think to stop lying is a work? How about stop stealing? Do you think forgiving someone is a work? Those are not works.
The kind of work we do not have to do is the work the Jews did when one had to make them self ceremonially clean before worshiping God. A work was when one had to give sin offerings and gift offerings. A work is not about not sinning!
My parents were never saved. They never cheated on each other. But that didn't get them to heaven. Works don't save, nor do they keep you saved.
Thou shalt not bear false witness, is one of the Ten Commandments.
The simple meaning is "Do not lie."
Keeping it is a work. My parents thought that if they kept the Ten Commandments they would get to heaven. Sadly that is not true. They were sincere but sincerely wrong.
Those are works, and they won't get you to heaven. Many people, like my parents think that keeping those commandments earn you a ticket to heaven. They are deceived. Others think that keeping them keep you saved once you are saved. They are just as deceived as the unsaved.
A work is a work no matter which way you define it.
Salvation is a gift. One doesn't work for a gift. It is free.
Paul did not say the "works of the CEREMONIAL law" in Romans 3:19-20! Besides, the gentiles along with the Jews were regarded as "under sin" in Romans 3:9 and the gentiles were NEVER under the CEREMONIAL law and yet the Gentiles are being equally described in Romans 3:10-18 and included in Romans 3:19-20 and the absoltue proof is the universal statements that go beyond Judaism ("no flesh" "all the world" and "every mouth").
The universal statements in Romans 3:19-20 prove that the "works of the law" cannot be restricted to the "ceremonial" laws of Moses because "all the world" was not under the ceremonial laws and therefore "every mouth" could not be shut by ceremonial laws.
The "works" or "deeds" (same Greek term translated both "works" and "deeds") of the law merely refer to what the law requires not to violate it whereas sin is the violation of that very law in this context (Rom. 3:19-20,23).
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