Was Jesus a Creationist?

Johnv:

The Flood gives a Biblical reason for the cloud
that seems to distort the data surrounding
Genesis 1:1.

 

And every time I have used the word "evolutionist", Meatros attempts to correct
me and use the term "scientist" (as though to
exclude creationists from the definition of
"scientist").

 

I disagree, but that's more an issue that's not bible related, so there's no harm in discussing it. I just don't think that it's necessarily pertinent to Gen1.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not taking sides here. I just think that it's possible to discuss the creation/evolution debates without resorting to challenging peoples' faithfulness to God or the Bible. All the folks here attest to being faithful Christians, and I have yet to see anything that says differently.

 

If creationist critiques of evolution are
PREVENTED from being addressed in PUBLIC schools
because of the likes of people such as Meatros,
then I have a BIG concern of motive,
sincerity, and misplaced loyalty. I believe
that not only one generation of kids have been
ruined because of evolution and its acceptance
as unchallenged fact.

 

The likes of honest people such as Meatros? Seriously as I've pointed out, Young Earth Creationism could not have happened (unless you'd like to explain the meteor craters).

You talk of sincerity and loyalty, yet you libel me all over this board!

It's simple, you can believe it-you just can't prove it.

 

Meatros:

Creationists have exposed plenty of evolutionists
assumptions to be false----simply by using their
own investigations against them.

The once concrete belief that the speed of light
is constant. Seems Einstein was in error?

The Big bag theory is being attacked from within
because it seems more and more certain that
the Universe has an equator of sorts. Microwave
impulses are found to be organized and in
a relative straight line (pretty much even
with the equator or the planet Earth of all
things). This doesn't support a blast but
design.

 

As I've demonstrated with your above post, Creationist's have made numerous inaccurate claims (or strawmen) that turn out to be false. This does not effect evolutionary theory.

What do you mean by concrete? Also I wouldn't say that Einstein is in error just yet. The idea needs to go through peer review and be evaluated.

Can you provide a link?

Again, I can *say* the same thing, but this doesn't make it so. Provide some links to reputable organizations that have done the research.

 

Oh, and have you noticed that all the stars go around the earth every day? If that doesn't prove earth is special, what will?

Actually, what I mean to say is - perhaps somebody got confused by a report about effects caused by the rotating earth on viewing the background microwave radiation.

 

I guess that technically is a response.

Now I ask that you give a qualitative answer to the question and to the others that have been asked of you in this thread.

 

Scientists had, before Einstein, known that the speed of light varies in different environments. What is constant, is the speed of light in a vacuum.

 

As I pointed out - endless speculation about a crater in Africa does nothing to provide a "kind of proof" that God is wrong in Genesis when HE says "God CREATED" the world in "6 Evenings and Mornings".

Speculation is not "proof" of anything. (Now demonstratable science - that is another thing altogether. That I like).

Bob

 

In other words, because you can't explain it due to a Young Earth, you are going to ignore it.

You can downplay the impact or the importance to try to side step the issue, but no one is fooled. The crater in Africa, as well as the many others, completely throw out the idea of a Young Earth. This is because the planet (yes the entire thing) becomes an impossible place to live.

I'm not even addressing the known scientific aging methods of these craters, which you earlier tried to attack. I'm not doing this because I know (and I think you now suspect) that if we throw those numbers out that means all of these impacts have to have occured in the last 6k-10k years.

Which means that life would not be possible on this planet scientifically. You also can not support it biblically. You might be able to stretch one or two passages in the bible to attempt to fit the impacts, but that still leaves you with more to cover.

As I said, you can ignore the issue all you want, you can even say it's unimportant-but all you are really saying is you prefer to ignore the evidence that the earth could *not* possibly be young.

If you're willing to do that, then I don't think you have much of a leg to stand on.

 

Meatros:

What on earth makes you think that Christians
could not survive a meteor hitting the earth?

You have NOTHING concrete to go by but speculation! That is what theory is, you know.

You seem to trust in speculation (though learned).
And I get the feeling that you think creationism
is unsophisticated and that the Biblical record
is below standard both historically & scientifically. Am I correct in that assumption?

 

Bob

YOU made a very specific "claim" about a "proof" of a young earth involving meteors, nickel, and river deltas. Were you just "speculating" or do you have ANY hard evidence to back up your claim? Please, IF you have the data present it including the "assumptions" that you make and if you DO NOT have the data WITHDRAW the claim.

Bob, do you remember when comet Shoemaker Levy hit Jupiter several years ago. Here is a picture of a fragment about a kilometer in diameter impacting Jupiter. http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/sl9/gif/mssso4.gif A 1 km diameter impactor is not that large compared to some of the impacts Meatros is asking about. The African crator is the largest known but scientists believe there were others that were as large or larger in history whose evidence has been desroyed or sufficently concealed such that we do not know of them. But we do know of this one and others. We have the crators. We date the crators to times throughout history. With many of the larger impacts we even have fossil evidence of mass extentions at the same date. This is not mere speculation. We have the evidence. You can see the pictures yourself, you have been provided the links. There has been a lot of research lately on the Chicxulub crator. Google on "Chicxulub" and you can find all the information you could ever want. This is the one associated with the demise of the dinosaurs. It was estimated to be about 10 km in diameter. Smaller than the African impactor but 10 times the size of the comet hitting Jupiter above. BUt that is misleading. Given the same velocity and density, mass goes up with the cube of the radius so ten times larger is 1000 times as massive. And since Chicxulub was believed to be an asteroid the density difference will add another factor of 2 - 4 fold in mass. That is a lot of destructive kinetic energy. (Someone want to give an equivilent number of Hiroshima sized bombs?)

You have a lot of large impactors to explain. I'll point you in the right direction. Helen has posted some information from Barry's website where a couple of large impacts fall at the dates for some Biblical calamities (although the meaning of the Peleg scripture seems to have a bit of controversy attached). But there are quite a few other large impacts, scattered throughout history that would have had devastating worldwide effects. Handwaving and rhetoric will not do. You got yourself into this now deliver, admit error, or graciously withdraw.

But even if you find a way to have the earth absorb all of these impactors in a few thousand years, the Chicxulub crator brings up the next subject. You would propose that all "kinds" came about, well within a few days of each other at least. It follows then that you would predict that all kinds should be found in each layer of the geologic column allowing for the exception of extinction. So where are all the major mammal "kinds" in the layers older than Chicxulub? Do you know of any fossil cats, or apes, or whales (to throw in something marine more likely to get fossilized), or bears, or dogs, or humans, or deer, or so on found in layers older than the Chicxulub event? Neither does anyone else! Oh some shrew-like and mouse-like mammals are there, but no elephants. Where are they? The numbers should be on the same order as other fossils found in those layers.

 

Um...Christians are humans, correct? Why wouldn't they be effected by a meteor?

Also you apparently don't know what a scientific theory really means.

Why are you assuming that I'm speculating?? I'm not. There's loads of evidence that these craters exist. I have specifically not mentioned how old science has confirmed them to be in order to let you and Bob come up with a young earth way to explain them. Neither of you two have come close; both of you are trying to either ignore the issue or subvert it; but actually try to answer it?

BTW-You are not correct in your assumption. Being a YEC has no bearing in my mind on your knowledge base, how you respond to posts does and how you treat people do. For example, although I disagree with Helen, I'm pretty sure she'd beat me on an IQ test.