Was man cursed or judged?

Quote:
"The problem I have with Adam and Eve being "cursed" is....in God's address to them, He cursed everything around them, BUT NOT THEM."

Yes this may be the case, yet the text neither says that the serpent was judged either. It rather says he was cursed? Are we to suppose that he was not judged because it was not specifically stated in that passage.

I have to keep in mind that the passage is in narrative form and as such it describes certain doctrinal points and not per se prescribes them. As such narrative literature conveys imagery in narrative literary form. Some good things and some bad things. The description of the condition man was left in certainly conforms to that described by the term 'curse.' Needless to say scripture is repleat with other passages that specifically states man is cursed so the point really becomes mute.

Quote:
"If any line of the human race were to be predestined to hell, He would have addressed them at that time."

He certainly may have addressed them but He did not have to address such questions. For instance just because someone asks me a question does not morally obligate me to answer. Likewise, I don't think scripture answers every question we may possibly have concerning a matter, yet we should be content with what he has revealed and not pry into the secret things that belong strictly to the Most High. We should also be cautious not to exceed what is written. As such, I don't think the passage refers to any as "cursed" as being an equivalent term to being predestined to hell.

Quote:
"Why would He curse dirt and animals, and not man? Because we are the object of His affection, made in His image."

I am not quite sure man was not cursed by the punitive measures enacted by God. Even so, we may be the objects of His affections and then again maybe we are not. Indeed some are objects of His wrath. Scripture seems pretty clear on that point and requires no speculations on my part.

Quote:
"Physical death was a sentence based on God judging their sin, but they were not cursed. Failure to have faith in the One to come meant eternal death, but they were saved in the same manner as you and I, by grace through faith, not election."

You may say they were not cursed, but we and all their posterity were subjected to death, not because of their will, but because of Him who subjected them to such a (dare I say?) curse.

I guess I would have to know what you mean by the term election and compare that with the biblical meanings of the term. There have been elect or chosen nations, elect or chosen Kings, elect or chosen prophets, and elect or chosen people... remember the Chosen One? The chosen ones... They were chosen, not because they were so great... not because they were so good... just look at their abismal history. So choice does play a part in salvation. You may choose a wife, but then again she may not choose you. Likewise, it is good that one accepts or chooses Christ... But it is better, or rather more critical that Christ has accepted and chosen them. Some repentance God rejects... remember?

Affectionaly Yours,

Kismet

 

Hello Kismet nice to meet you.

You dared! As you said there are many meanings to the word 'curse' and death is no picnic but webdog defined his meaning after I said: Because 'curse' has the meaning of assigning to an evil fate, damn and doom. He said: Johnp, I'm glad you bring this up. I agree with your definition of curse "assign to an evil fate, damn and doom". So I went from there.

If He cursed all mankind, as we are using the word, then all have been assigned to Hell. If another were to take their place and become that curse for them then they would be represented and the representative would be assigned that place. This would destroy the Arminian position because if another needs to take the curse then all must be saved or none. Since Jesus did not fail then He must have taken the curse, assigning to an evil fate, damn and doom, and the reassigning takes place on a universal level or He only took the curse for some.

Some of my muddled thinking.
I believe we were hid in Christ as He cursed the race and it is a shadow not the reality that affects us. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. But we were not like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed were we? Eph 2:3; 2 Peter 2:12. (Thanks Dan. ) We were chosen in Him before the creation of the world and as such our sins never affected us for harm but good because God's Lamb was slain from the creation of the world before a sin was committed. We had our covering from the beginning but He has bound all men over to disobedience, meaning saint and sinner, Israel and the world, Jacob and Esau, but He never foresook us, we were never in danger. He could not love us and hate us and He could not hate us because Jesus is always before Him interceding for them. Since He died for me He must also intercede for me and so He did bring the sperm and the egg together to form me. I know it's all about me. Me and the others. Pearls we are.
1 Peter 1:18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.
He talks about the cross as if the cross is incidental and all was acheived in eternity because He is the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.

I don't know what is right or wrong with that but I post it because I think there is some good in it.

john.

 

Hello webdog.

They cannot Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one." JN 10:25-30.

Never the Devil's offspring 'between her seed and the Devils seed'. The elect, being conceived as sinners is not the same as the reprobate being conceived as sinners. One is a piglet the other is a lamb. You can scrub them both up but the pig will return to roll in the mud. Both born dead one left for dead.

Ok but you don't mean saved! Saviour must be a difficult concept to you.

Of course in the Twilght Zone anything is possible but in reality the children are like the father and need no enslavement. Like father like son is a fine saying. When are the children enslaved by their parents and all are? Jesus said He no longer calls us servants but friends. We have come of age in God's household not left anothers.

Quite right to.

That is exactly what it is from the father of them.

john.

 

The lie is that Jesus drew all men ever born once He was lifted up because loads had died before He was lifted up. And that is a low ebb answer. Loads died before they ever heard His Name and are still doing so.

john.

 

Hello webdog.

Didn't you hear the question? Why does it say that God put enmity 'between' if it was all inclusive? GE 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and hers;...? There are two tribes whether you like it or not.

But they had heard of Him because He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. 20 He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws. So how can they be drawn? Why should Jesus draw those who have no atonement given for them? A merry jest?

john.

 

Hello webdog.

I apologise. It was Ps 147:19-20. That's where you will find that the idea that Jesus draws all men is a fallacy because faith comes by hearing and they could not hear could they unless close by.

Thank you and you can stick to your guns.

Are nations people or lines on a map? You seem to talk about nations as an entity?

Jesus then drew Himself did He or is He an exception? He is part of all men is He not? That is no yes not yes no.

JN 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Check mate man. You have Jesus talking to reptiles and you are calling certain Jews reptiles is there no end? Since this where technical gets you I'd advise on going scriptural if I may be so bold?

john.

 

JohnP

Yeah, the world stands condemned... that is a pretty bad fate. The condemnation is so apparent in scripture it seems silly to mince words between being cursed or condemned. A rose by any other name is still a rose. I could even describe a rose without using the word 'rose' and it conveys the self-same idea. It seems like some are aguing that it is half past four, while others are saying it is four-thirty. Still yet, there are others claiming, "No, it is 30 minutes till five." Man is cursed... an evil fate befalls ALL men. The end of the righteous is the same as the wicked... death! Even the saved have to pass through the dark corridors of death alone. Sounds pretty bad to me! I could call it a curse and it is a perfectly good depiction of it.

Well I don't know about you, but prior to Christ, I operated like brute beasts, creatures of instinct. I was simply incorrigable.

Well we must keep in mind that everyone believes in 'Limited Atonement.' Yeah... that's right. Some limit the extent or application of it, while other limit the power and efficacy. Unfortunately, if the characterization you made is correct, Christ's death is merely provisional for all efficacious for none. The blood of Christ does not save... Christ does not save... Those things just make salvation possible.

Of course His death is provisional but not merely provisional. It makes possible the salvation of everyone, but makes salvation actual and a reality to those whom He has foreknown, chosen, and in their due time, effectually called. From the moment they were born, they were on a collision course with redemption, and didn't even know it. It is possible for others to come... if they do He will not cast them out... but they won't. Without God effectually working within them for His good pleasure, they will not come... Who then can be saved? With man it is certainly not possible... but with God, the seemingly impossible becomes not only possible, but most probable, and in His good time become actual.

So yeah, we have all been assigned an evil fate (I prefer the word kismet), yet God, in His infinite mercy can lay hold of any heart, at any time, He so chooses. He has the peroggative of choice also. He can choose to accept the contrition and repentence of one, or reject it.

Curse, condemnation, hell fire and brimestone... Any way you slice it, it is bad.

Affectionately Yours,

Kismet

 

Hello webdog.

I believe that it is not impossible. And so with hyperbole you intend to say that Abraham was their father? I fail to see how this is helpful. Do you think He did speak hyperbolically?

Hyperbole has a meaning of overstepping the truth? Are you saying God did lie? If you say no then Jesus is not speaking hyperbolically is He? If yes you are saying God can lie. If God can't lie then an overstepping of the bounds of truth, hyperbole, He cannot do can He?

Which is it to be? Can God lie?

john.

 

Hello Kismet.

The awful comes from all doctrines because in the end He began it all.
But why do you say you were incorrigible when all you were doing was doing what you wanted? Sounds as if the law was breathing down you neck.
Like brute beasts we were but not like brute beasts born only to be destroyed but to be corrigibled.

Then I have erred in giving out the wrong impression and I wonder why no one has jumped on me for changing horses in mid stream. I believe He is efficacious towards His Children only. The elect alone benefit from the cross.

Even so He never forsook us. To suffer salvation is our lot thank God.

I don't believe they can. Romans 8:7 says they can't. It does not say they will not but that they cannot.

It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. Romans 9:16. Of that there is no doubt.

I agree but that's the way the cookie crumbles and it crumbled over onto me in good ways. I cannot complain.

I disagree: Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me. PS 23:4.
That's a promise I intend to take up at the time and not before. It must be for our good otherwise we would not die.

john.

 

Ps23 doesn't say we don't pass through the dark corridors of death. It says that when we pass through the dark corridors of death, God will be with us.

 

Hello webdog.

...For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
I hope that dispels the impression.

...For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: They aren't He is.

...For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. No it couldn't be could it? Sonship is determined by seed and they are not of the seed of Isaac: In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

So you know how I know it and you say I said that it was not so? I am in the process of replying to that post just above which you posted. I wanted to know if you believe God can lie please answer the question. It won't stop my response if you don't but it will reduce clutter in it and make it easier to understand if you do. So if you could please: Can God lie? Or: Did you make a mistake in saying that He can? Thank you.

john.

 

Hello Johnv.

Just the point I was making. We are never alone.

john.

 

Hello webdog.

It is far from ignorant it is in fact an error on your part that you now wish to hide from.
You said that Jesus spoke hyperbolically which has the meaning of an overstepping of the bounds of truth and that must mean Jesus lied. Not that I am able to judge the Lord so I'm not saying that would be wrong to me. But you are trying to establish a truth with a lie. Aren't you?

Romans 9:16 says otherwise:
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy. KJV.
It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. Romans 9:16 NIV. Just comparing translations.

*check mate revoked* Play do you? Poorly because you do not see the danger when attacking. To call mate when it isn't is to lose the game but I am still here and you are where? In no answer land again?

I don't suppose they do. All I ever asked for was simple direct answers but what do I get? I leave no one in doubt as to my beliefs and I reply as I am and I am open and vulnerable to the truth.
Now we are in the same place. You say God was speaking to the reptile and so He was talking to the Serpents offspring in Jerusalem 2000 years ago. You gave three, I think, different explanations and grounded on, "God was talking to a snake?" Do me a favour treat me with some respect please.

I believe that it is not impossible. And so with hyperbole you intend to say that Abraham was their father? Yes or no?
Do you think He did speak hyperbolically? Yes or no? Don't you see you are using a device to change the meaning of a text?
Sonship is predicated on conduct... Who made you to be different from anyone else?

john.