Was Mary a surrogate or did she contribute her seed to Jesus??

[mrtumnus]

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

How do you come to the conclusion that Mary was not included in the 'all have sinned' statement?

Your theology that she never sinned is contrary to Scripture.

I don't think you can come to the conlusion that Mary is not included in these statements based on their own merits. However, I also don't think they can be used to definitively state Mary was a sinner either. For one thing, most concede that 'all' does not apply to every individual, because most would say they don't apply to a very young child.

The other issue is that 'all' is used in many places in the Bible where it's clear it doesn't mean every single human that ever lived, but rather is making a generic statement about mankind as a whole. There's no reason to consider this is not the same here.

A couple of examples:

Mr 1:5 - The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.

From this verse, do you conclude that every individual in Jerusalem was baptized by John? Including the Pharisees, and the Roman soldiers, and the Greeks?

Or this one:

Heb 12:9 - Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live!

Do you conclude here that every individual that has ever lived has had a human father who disciplined them and every individual respected them for it?

This would be the problem I would see with those who would interpret the verses "all have sinned" as applying to every human individual and making a definitive statement regarding the sinfulness of Mary, as opposed to being a generic statement about humanity as a whole.

 

[D28guy]

mrtumnus,

"I find it interesting that you believe that a sanctified, perfected Christian translates to goddess."

Dont forget the "sinless" part.

Its not something I've conjured up in my mind, mrtumnus.

Its REALITY.

In the Catholic Church of Rome...and the Eastern Orthodox as well...Mary has evolved, over the course of 1700 years, into a full blown GODDESS who is the recipient of full blown GODDESS WORSHIP, non-stop now, 24 hours a day for centuries.

She *supposedly* is the protectress of Humanity. The protectress of children. Millions offer their supplications up, not to God, but to (((MARY)))...seeking answers. She *supposedly* grants visitations and gives messages of wisdom. She is expected to grant miraculous interventions and healings. Millions travel the word to visit her "shrines". She is hailed as the (((MOTHER OF GOD))) and the (((QUEEN OF THE UNIVERSE))).

The diefication of Mary is not conjecture...its REALITY.

Sadly,

Mike

 

[mrtumnus]

mrtumnus

Luke 1:46-47 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.


Why is Mary is rejoicing in this verse?

What is God saving her from?

God absolutely did save her from sin. The question is -- when did he save her? Is it required that her sanctification and perfection as a Christian must occur after the cross, and after she had sinned?

Or does the omnipresence and omniscience of God allow for the possibility that He knew the choice she would make and opted to sanctify at the time of her creation in order to make holy the vessel in which He would dwell?

And if this were the case and you were Mary, wouldn't you absolutely be rejoicing in God your Savior, who had done great things for you?

The issue is that those who do not understand this doctrine try to make it about Mary. The only thing is has to do with Mary is that she was the one chosen by God for this purpose. The doctrine itself is totally about God, His nature and His grace.

The papal proclamation:
The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.

 

[mrtumnus]

mrtumnus,



Dont forget the "sinless" part.

Its not something I've conjured up in my mind, mrtumnus.

Its REALITY.

In the Catholic Church of Rome...and the Eastern Orthodox as well...Mary has evolved, over the course of 1700 years, into a full blown GODDESS who is the recipient of full blown GODDESS WORSHIP, non-stop now, 24 hours a day for centuries.

She *supposedly* is the protectress of Humanity. The protectress of children. Millions offer their supplications up, not to God, but to (((MARY)))...seeking answers. She *supposedly* grants visitations and gives messages of wisdom. Millions travel the word to visit her "shrines". She is hailed as the (((MOTHER OF GOD))) and the (((QUEEN OF THE UNIVERSE))).

The diefication of Mary is not conjecture...its REALITY.

Sadly,

Mike

I didn't forget the "sinless" part. But after I am completely sanctified and perfected by redemptive grace, my expectation is to be sinless as well.

All I can say regarding the other is that your 'reality' of Catholicism is not mine.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

If you are looking to Mary for that redemptive grace, you are not going to ever see it. Mary cannot redeem anyone.

 

[D28guy]

mrtumnus,

"The papal proclamation:
The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin."

The pronouncments of the leader of a countefiet christian group mean nothing, mrtumnus. They are 100% irrelavent. Please dont waste your time.

I could post a prayer from Pope John Paull II that was made during an ecumenical meeting where he was praying in unity with Voodoo practitioners, witch doctors, Sikhs, Buddhists, etc etc etc in order to bring peace in the world. Thats blasphemous.

The Catholic Church exterminated multiplied thousands for much less during the Inquisitions.

Mike

 

[Joe]

mrtumnus
Luke 1:46-47 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Why is Mary is rejoicing in this verse?

What is God saving her from?

Your answer....

God absolutely did save her from sin. The question is -- when did he save her? Is it required that her sanctification and perfection as a Christian must occur after the cross, and after she had sinned?

Or does the omnipresence and omniscience of God allow for the possibility that He knew the choice she would make and opted to sanctify at the time of her creation in order to make holy the vessel in which He would dwell?

And if this were the case and you were Mary, wouldn't you absolutely be rejoicing in God your Savior, who had done great things for you?

The issue is that those who do not understand this doctrine try to make it about Mary. The only thing is has to do with Mary is that she was the one chosen by God for this purpose. The doctrine itself is totally about God, His nature and His grace.

The papal proclamation:
The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.

Again, mrtumnus, please answer my questions. They are simple.
It's polite to not answer a question with questions Then I'll answer you ok

 

[D28guy]

mrtumnus,

"I didn't forget the "sinless" part. But after I am completely sanctified and perfected by redemptive grace, my expectation is to be sinless as well."

Yes, but you will be in heaven then....not here on earth.

"All I can say regarding the other is that your 'reality' of Catholicism is not mine.

Praise God! I'm very happy to hear that you are not one of the Goddess worshippers, but multiplied millions are.

And the Church of Rome promotes it. I KNOW. I was IN that organisation for many years.

God bless,

Mike

 

[DHK]

God absolutely did save her from sin. The question is -- when did he save her? Is it required that her sanctification and perfection as a Christian must occur after the cross, and after she had sinned?

After the cross? No, definitely not. She knew that Christ was the Messiah well before the wedding of Cana where Christ performed his first miracle and began his ministry.

Or does the omnipresence and omniscience of God allow for the possibility that He knew the choice she would make and opted to sanctify at the time of her creation in order to make holy the vessel in which He would dwell?

Absolutely not! God does not go against his Word. Salvation is the same for all. It is by grace through faith, and not of works (Eph.2:8,). Mary was no exception. Mary admitted that she was a sinner; admitted that she was in need of a Savior; and also brought a sin offering to the priest at the time of her purification. That is very strong evidence that Mary knew of her sinful condition. Sinners need to be saved. They can only be saved when they are at an aged when they realize they are sinners and are able to volitionally accept the grace of God on behalf of their sins. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. She must have believed. We know she believed. At what age? We don't know, but it had to be at an age of understanding and comprehension of who Christ was. Her own children: James and Jude did not believe that Christ was the Messiah until after the resurrection.

And if this were the case and you were Mary, wouldn't you absolutely be rejoicing in God your Savior, who had done great things for you?

But that wasn't the case, was it? Mary had to come to salvation just like anyone else.

The issue is that those who do not understand this doctrine try to make it about Mary. The only thing is has to do with Mary is that she was the one chosen by God for this purpose. The doctrine itself is totally about God, His nature and His grace.

However you seem to be one who is treating God like a puppet at your fingertips commanding him to do what you want. God acts according to His nature and according to His Word; not ours. It was His will that God the second person of the trinity, come to earth in the form of a man--born of a virgin, conceived by the third person of the Godhead, and being found perfect and complete in his humanity, and not giving up any part of his deity he lived and dwelt among men. And because of his love for man he finally died for man's sin. He could do so for he was perfect man without sin, and because he was God at the same time.

 

[Joe]

mrtumnus
These are your statements to various people beginning with page 17. We are now on page 19

Mary absolutely required a Savior and she absolutely recognized this

"That does not necessarily lead to a conclusion that she sinned however."

The problem with a definitive declaration that Mary sinned from a sola-scriptura POV is that scripture in no way states this.To go from her recognition that God is indeed her savior to that she actively committed sin is a leap without merit.

God absolutely did save her from sin.

I am seeing this conversation going in circles and becoming quite fruitless. It's my bedtime, goodnight

 

[Matt Black]

The second Adam's race is Human as well.

The Bible clearly says Adam's race is the First Adam, and Jesus is the Second Adam, Read 1 Cor 15 !

How can you say Jesus is not Human if He belongs to the Second Adam?

Do you know the meaning of Adam?

NO, it's you and SFIC who are denying His humanity

 

[Matt Black]

You have to ask yourself does Jesus have one nature or two?

A no-brainer: two.

 

[Matt Black]

Only one person.

...which doesn't answer the question: how many natures does Christ have?

 

[Matt Black]

StandingfirminChrist, you seem to be going back to an old heresie form about the 4th Century. It was either called Nestorianism or Monophysitism I'm not sure which one you may want to google them to see what they are. There is nothing new under the sun!

Grace56

More like docetism.

 

[Matt Black]

Why is it so hard to believe God miraculously created Jesus' human body and placed it in Mary.

Oh, it's not hard to believe (God can after all do anything). It's just plain wrong. If God did that, then Jesus was not 'the Second Adam' since He would have been no longer of the genealogy of Adam but the first memberr of an entirely new human race, and therefore He could not be said to be human as we are (albeit without sin)...which, as has been pointed out by countless posters here. is heresy.

 

[Matt Black]

Was the Blood shed at the Cross inherited from Mary?

Another no-brainer: yes.

 

[grace56]

mrtumnus,

You asked me...



Again, as I said before God *theoretically* can do anything He pleases.

But God would not do that, and He did not do that.

If God had done that, than this humble Jewish teenager would not be a normal human being. She would be a super human. Sinless. Perfect. Without flaw.

She would in fact be a Goddess

Which brings us to ANOTHER reason why the Catholic Church so vigorously promotes these lies concerning Mary.

They have millions of Goddess worshipers who must continue being fed.

Thats for another thread however, but I felt compelled to answer your question.

In spite of the fact that by all accounts Mary was a fine, honorable Jewish girl and woman, she knew she needed a savior because she...knew...she...was...a...sinner...just like the rest of us.

Mike

I have attended Catholic masses many times with my husband and can tell you that I've never heard anybody there say Mary was a goddess. They honor her as the mother of God just like Elizabeth did when Mary went to her when she was pregnant. Now when I go to my church nobody ever talks about Mary but then at my husbands church they showed me where the Catholics get there teachings from I was ver surprised to find it in the Bible.

Luke 1: 41-43 When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, Most blessed are you amoung women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, And how does the happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?


Grace56

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Mrtumnus, I have a pretty good understanding of the Immaculate Conception, I was set to swim the Tiber this Easter of ’08 and have been attending RCIA classes in preparation for a few years. I’m now an Orthodox Catechumen for reasons as such we are discussing.

You say

The RC position on the Immaculate Conception has nothing to do with concern of passing sin to Jesus.

I beg to differ…

The IC means that Mary’s conception was brought about the normal way, only she at her conception was without original sin…that’s what “Immaculate” means…without stain. Through this act of preserving Mary, sin wasn’t passed on to Jesus in her womb. <<<-This IS Roman Catholic teaching…period.

The Catholic Church and many Protestants teach that Adam’s guilt is passed on to us at our conception…This is purely Augustine theology…and the RC dogma of the IC is the answer to this. Pope Pius IX, dogmatized the IC centuries after the split between the Eastern and Western Church.

The West (Roman Catholic and maybe some Protestants), likes to believe that sin is something tangible, like it’s something you can see or touch, maybe even taste.

The Orthodox has no problem at all, b/c we don’t inherit Adam’s guilt, only the consequences and that’s death. Mary, even though she herself was a sinner, never passed on Adam’s guilt…Mary, just as you and I are responsible for our own sin.

ICXC NIKA
-

 

[Agnus_Dei]

The main problem with Immaculate Conception is this.

If God can protect anyone from sin even without the Blood of Jesus, why didn't He apply such Technique to all other human beings without the need for His Beloved Son to die the terrible death?

Jesus showed the Successful Model for Adam, that the Same Adam can live the world as a human without committing sins despite the temptations. He was a good model for the whole Adam's race.

Eliyahu: Orthodox theology regarding this is some of the most brilliant thinking I’ve ever encountered. I would encourage you to check it out.

Through Adam’s sin the Earth and us humans inherit the consequences of Adam’s sin. We are NOT guilty of Adam’s sin. God isn’t mad at me b/c of Adam. Adam passed on nothing to me, but death and part of the consequence is that eventually we all will fall into temptation and sin.

Jesus, being fully human, He identifies with us, he’s tempted as well, only Jesus is fully divine and thus His humanity submits to His divinity.

ICXC NIKA
-

 

[MichelleinPA]

Wow, y'all have added a lot of pages since yesterday afternoon!!!

Michelle, how come you keep making snide remarks about Mary? She was called "blessed" by our Lord, and favored so much so, she carried our Savior.

I'm not the one making snide remarks about Mary, I am just simplifying what the others are saying. The assertion that Mary contributed nothing to Jesus other than her womb is to diminish her role to nothing other than a glorified oven.

I do believe that Mary is a woman to emulate, but no different than Ruth or Esther or Elizabeth or Mary & Martha.