Was Mary a surrogate or did she contribute her seed to Jesus??

[standingfirminChrist]

I gave Scripture along with Greek and Hebrew definitions
.
I know which I believe too.

 

[DHK]

The Bible says:
Christ was born of Mary.

It says: Matthew 1:20
for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

What did the Holy Spirit conceive, SFIC, What?
What is conception? How does it take place? What is involved? What part did the Holy Spirit have when the Bible specifically says "that whic conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost'? What was conceived??????

This is what I asked of you.
Here is your response to the above question:

Just as God spoke this world into existence, just as He created man without the use of a woman's ovum, He could just as easily have put His Son into Mary's womb

You evaded a straight answer to my question. In fact, in light of both Scripture and science you couldn't give any answer.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Interesting the word conceived in Matthew 1:20 is not the same as the word conceived in Luke 1:24.

The difference in it is, in Luke, Elisibeth conceived

Strong's Greek Dictionary
4815. sullambano
Search for G4815 in KJVSL
sullambanw sullambano sool-lam-ban'-o
from 4862 and 2983; to clasp, i.e. seize (arrest, capture); specially, to conceive (literally or figuratively); by implication, to aid:--catch, conceive, help, take.

See Greek 4862
See Greek 2983

In Matthew,

Strong's Greek Dictionary
1080. gennao
Search for G1080 in KJVSL
gennaw gennao ghen-nah'-o
from a variation of 1085; to procreate (properly, of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively, to regenerate:--bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.

See Greek 1085

That which is procreated in her is of the Holy Ghost. God did not need the ovum of Mary. He begat, He produced His Son in the womb. Her egg was not involved.

Elisabeth aided in the conception of John the Baptist... she provided the egg.
Mary did not provide an egg.

 

[DHK]

Elisabeth aided in the conception of John the Baptist... she provided the egg.
Mary did not provide an egg.

So the Bible contradicts itself. The word has one meaning when it suits your pre-conceived theology and another meaning when it doesn't. That is all very convenient, but not Scriptural.

Matthew 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

The best way to define a word is by context. The context here defines "conceive" in its ordinary sense which you refuse to believe. It seems as if you want to deny the miraculousness of the virgin birth.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

My pre-conceived theology?

I just gave the Gr. meaning of the word conceived for the verse you provided. Matthew 1:20.

Strong's Greek Dictionary
1080. gennao
Search for G1080 in KJVSL
gennaw gennao ghen-nah'-o
from a variation of 1085; to procreate (properly, of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively, to regenerate:--bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.

See Greek 1085

I did not write the original Greek, nor did I translate it originally. You stated earlier that we are to accept the first definition and not the 3, 4 and 5.

Or does the 3, 4 and 5 only apply when you say so? In Scripture, who does the begetting? It is always the father. Look it up.

Abraham begat
Jacob begat

In the case of Christ, He is the only begotten of the Father.

gennao is not the same as sullambano.

Elisabeth was said to have sullambano in Luke 1:24
Mary gennao in the verse you provided ... Matthew 1:20.

According to the Greek, there is a difference.

 

[Eliyahu]

...which doesn't answer the question: how many natures does Christ have?

2 natures in one person.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

In Scripture, who does the begetting? It is always the father.

Didn't the 'seed' come through the bloodline of Ruth, the mother, instead of the father, Boaz?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Matthew 1:5-6 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse; And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;

The seed did not come through Ruth's line, but through Obed to Jesse to David

 

[Eliyahu]

So you are saying that God is incapable of doing something? God would be incapable of protecting someone from sin? I think not. However God has put forth rules and requirements that He will not change. He could have made another way for man to be saved in the beginning but He set up the requirements of sacrifices for sins. In that requirement, He then required a perfect sacrifice to end all the other sacrifices. It was by God's own choice to set up the requirements that His Son would have to die. But God is absolutely capable of doing whatever He wants - but He chooses to work within rules that He Himself has set up.

You revealed quite a lot of ignorance about God's attributes.

The Almighty God, the Ompinipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent God cannot do several things.

God cannot cheat the people, cannot tell lie, cannot torture the innocent people, cannot force the people to believe in Jesus by force, cannot accept the unforgiven sinners into the Heaven, cannot forgive the sins of the Unbelievers, The most important thing that God cannot do is here:

God cannot forgive the sins without punishing them !
Where is such statement?

Read Exodus 34, the entire chapter.
People know about the 10 commandments only. However, God mentioned His attributes before He handed the 10 commandments.

God's capacity is restricted by the attributes of God Himself. Nobody restricts God, but God Himself's character restricts His capacity.

Ex 34:7 is the most important.
The English translation doesn't reflect all the meanings of the Hebrew sentence here. If we want to reflect all the meaning of it, it need much more lengthy statement.

I will translate the key portion of the verse.

Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin by undertaking for Himself, and that by no means acquit (hold innocent) them without punishing them.

The 10 attributes of God is well stated in Ex 34 including His Jealousy mentioned in v 14.

God cannot do everything , not because He is restricted by any other beings, but because His own nature prohibits somethings.

God's love is restricted by His Justice, His vengeance is restricted by His Mercy and Love, and in that sense, God is well balanced in Harmony.

This is why God set up the way for the Redemption.

The prayer in Gethshemane was mainly for the benefit of the human beings, Believers, because Jesus knew the answer from His Father already.

He confirmed for us that THERE was NO way other than His Death by shedding the Blood at the Cross, because sinners must pay the penalty and there is NO remission of Sins without shedding of the Blood( Heb 9:22). Another lesson from Gethshemane was that Jesus obeyed absolutely unto death, even the death at the Cross, the most shameful and painful death on behalf of sinners.

If anyone say that Mary was protected from the sins, from the birth, then why didn't God offer such grace to all the human race? Why did He allow His beloved Son to be killed at the Cross?
Life is in the Blood which carries all the oxygen and nutrition to the body, and there is no Remission of sins without shedding the Blood.
So called Immaculate Conception lacks this kind of understanding about the God's attributes.

 

[Eliyahu]

Now I want to show you another verses in connection with the Surrogate Motherhood of Mary.

Heb 7:
1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; 2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; 3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. 4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils. 5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

My interpretation is the followings. If anyone disagrees with me, please show the full interpretation of the verses, and then let the readers discern and judge.

1. Melchizedek was the King of Righteousness.
Son of God is the King of Righteousness

2. Melchizedek was the King of Peace
Son of God is the King of Peace

3. Mechizedek had no father
Son of God had no (earthly) father.

4. Melchizedek had NO Mother
Son of God had NO MOTHER

5. Melchizedek had no days of beginning
Son of God had NO days of beginning

6. Melchizedek had no end of life
Son of God had no end of life

7. Melchizedek lived a Priest continually
Son of God lives a Priest forever

Therefore, in those aspects, Melchizedek is similar unto Son of God, as if we compared the photos of the same person taken at different times.

Both Melchizedek and Son of God were similar each other in the common aspects that they had No Mother.

NO the question is this.

Can Hebrews writer say that Son of God had NO Mother even if He had the Biological Mother?

Can Bible deny that Jesus had the Biological Mother even if He had indeed?

If Mary was Surrogate mother, yes the Bible can deny it.

If Jesus had the real Biological Mother, we must accept that Son of God had the Mother, contrary to Heb 7:1-

 

[annsni]

You can say that Mary provided an egg all you want, but Scripture does not back that statement up.

Again, DHK and I have shown that Mary HAD to have provided her "seed"/egg to Jesus. You cannot show in Scripture that she didn't.

I have emailed a Christian friend who taught biology asking her concerning the woman having a seed. Will let you know what she says. But I bet you won't like it.

All she'll say is that it's impossible for a woman to become pregnant without an egg and sperm. I bet YOU won't like what she has to say either.

So the Bible contradicts itself. The word has one meaning when it suits your pre-conceived theology and another meaning when it doesn't. That is all very convenient, but not Scriptural.

Matthew 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

The best way to define a word is by context. The context here defines "conceive" in its ordinary sense which you refuse to believe. It seems as if you want to deny the miraculousness of the virgin birth.

DHK - You have to understand that SFIC loves to change the meaning of words to suit his objective. Have you ever read the alcohol threads? Atleast he's consistent.

You revealed quite a lot of ignorance about God's attributes.

The Almighty God, the Ompinipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent God cannot do several things.

God cannot cheat the people, cannot tell lie, cannot torture the innocent people, cannot force the people to believe in Jesus by force, cannot accept the unforgiven sinners into the Heaven, cannot forgive the sins of the Unbelievers, The most important thing that God cannot do is here:

God cannot forgive the sins without punishing them !
Where is such statement?

Read Exodus 34, the entire chapter.
People know about the 10 commandments only. However, God mentioned His attributes before He handed the 10 commandments.

God's capacity is restricted by the attributes of God Himself. Nobody restricts God, but God Himself's character restricts His capacity.

Ex 34:7 is the most important.
The English translation doesn't reflect all the meanings of the Hebrew sentence here. If we want to reflect all the meaning of it, it need much more lengthy statement.

I will translate the key portion of the verse.

Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin by undertaking for Himself, and that by no means acquit (hold innocent) them without punishing them.

The 10 attributes of God is well stated in Ex 34 including His Jealousy mentioned in v 14.

God cannot do everything , not because He is restricted by any other beings, but because His own nature prohibits somethings.

God's love is restricted by His Justice, His vengeance is restricted by His Mercy and Love, and in that sense, God is well balanced in Harmony.

This is why God set up the way for the Redemption.

The prayer in Gethshemane was mainly for the benefit of the human beings, Believers, because Jesus knew the answer from His Father already.

He confirmed for us that THERE was NO way other than His Death by shedding the Blood at the Cross, because sinners must pay the penalty and there is NO remission of Sins without shedding of the Blood( Heb 9:22). Another lesson from Gethshemane was that Jesus obeyed absolutely unto death, even the death at the Cross, the most shameful and painful death on behalf of sinners.

If anyone say that Mary was protected from the sins, from the birth, then why didn't God offer such grace to all the human race? Why did He allow His beloved Son to be killed at the Cross?
Life is in the Blood which carries all the oxygen and nutrition to the body, and there is no Remission of sins without shedding the Blood.
So called Immaculate Conception lacks this kind of understanding about the God's attributes.

I'm certainly not ignorant about God's attributes. He has set forth rules that He follows and therefore, the blood lineage of Jesus must have been followed and not short circuited by creating Jesus outside of a human form.

One last time I will ask the question - can you give the name of one reputable Christian theologian/teacher/preacher who believes as you do? I was just reading Systematic Theology by Wayne Grudem this evening to see what he says and he certainly agrees with DHK and I and I'm positive he is one of the majority who do. Read any commentary and you'll find the same information. The idea that Jesus was created outside of the human race is not the truth but a fantasy. I'm sorry. As much as you try to argue it, I'll listen to the clear Word of God about this subject.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

All she'll say is that it's impossible for a woman to become pregnant without an egg and sperm.

With man it is impossible, but with God, all things are possible.

Some seem to forget that.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

1. Christ’s Unprecedented Birth
“Jesus’ birth was vital to man’s salvation: without the birth there could have been no death, no resurrection and no hope at all for mankind. You know how God put His plan into action. It is undeniably “the greatest story ever told.” He planted a seed of greatness in the womb of a virgin named Mary. It was totally impossible. Not only did a virgin conceive, but the Holy Spirit (to whom Jesus referred as “My Father”!) impregnated her. (Mat. 1.20; Luke 1.35) There was no human factor in the planning or implementing of the act itself. Joseph her husband did not contribute a sperm cell – she was a virgin – nor did Mary supply an egg cell. How could there be a seed of greatness, how could there be a sinless infant born if sinful humans had a part in its conception? Mary was only a willing donor of her body for the divine implantation of the fertilized egg cell and her subsequent nourishing of the embryo that was not only begotten but created by God alone.”

[SIZE=-1]- From “Thoughts of a Layman” archives: “The Impossible Story of Christ,” 12/24/03[/SIZE] ​

 

[annsni]

With man it is impossible, but with God, all things are possible.

Some seem to forget that.

I certainly don't. God could have put Jesus in a monkey if He wanted to - but He set forth in His Word just how the Messiah would be born. He would be of the seed of a woman - the seed of Eve - of the blood lineage of David. That's just how He did it.

1. Christ’s Unprecedented Birth
“Jesus’ birth was vital to man’s salvation: without the birth there could have been no death, no resurrection and no hope at all for mankind. You know how God put His plan into action. It is undeniably “the greatest story ever told.” He planted a seed of greatness in the womb of a virgin named Mary. It was totally impossible. Not only did a virgin conceive, but the Holy Spirit (to whom Jesus referred as “My Father”!) impregnated her. (Mat. 1.20; Luke 1.35) There was no human factor in the planning or implementing of the act itself. Joseph her husband did not contribute a sperm cell – she was a virgin – nor did Mary supply an egg cell. How could there be a seed of greatness, how could there be a sinless infant born if sinful humans had a part in its conception? Mary was only a willing donor of her body for the divine implantation of the fertilized egg cell and her subsequent nourishing of the embryo that was not only begotten but created by God alone.”
- From “Thoughts of a Layman” archives: “The Impossible Story of Christ,” 12/24/03

And who would this be? I found Thoughts of a Layman and he's a Buddhist. So you're taking a Buddhist's word for gospel?? Wow.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

If one studies biology properly, one would find conception does not ordinarily take place in the womb. It occurs in the fallopian tubes. Yet the conception spoken of in the case of Mary was in the womb, not the fallopian tubes.

Further proof that the birth of Christ was caused by God. Man had no part in it... not even in supplying the egg.

 

[annsni]

If one studies biology properly, one would find conception does not ordinarily take place in the womb. It occurs in the fallopian tubes. Yet the conception spoken of in the case of Mary was in the womb, not the fallopian tubes.

Further proof that the birth of Christ was caused by God. Man had no part in it... not even in supplying the egg.

While this can be true, it is also true that fertilization CAN occur in the uterus and can even occur in the abdominal cavity. Further proof that God had His hand in each and every part of this - even to the point of fertilizing the egg in a miraculous way through the Holy Spirit so that Jesus could be fully human from the blood line of David and fully God.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Had Mary provided the egg, Jesus would not have been the sinless sacrifice that was needed. All were declared sinners because of one's disobedience. Sin would have been passed on through Christ through man. It was not, because God did not use Mary's egg.

God performed a miracle that day that many do not believe happened.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I certainly don't. God could have put Jesus in a monkey if He wanted to - but He set forth in His Word just how the Messiah would be born. He would be of the seed of a woman - the seed of Eve - of the blood lineage of David. That's just how He did it.



And who would this be? I found Thoughts of a Layman and he's a Buddhist. So you're taking a Buddhist's word for gospel?? Wow.

You better check your resources. It is not a Buddhist. Buddhist's do not believe in the cross. The author of this book believes in the cross. Part of this man's testimony is this...

Jesus paid it all, all to Him I owe.

Does that sound like a Buddhist to you?

 

[annsni]

You better check your resources. It is not a Buddhist. Buddhist's do not believe in the cross. The author of this book believes in the cross. Part of this man's testimony is this...

Jesus paid it all, all to Him I owe.

Does that sound like a Buddhist to you?

Well, look up "thoughts of a layman" yourself. It is not a book from what I can see - it's a blog.

 

[annsni]

Had Mary provided the egg, Jesus would not have been the sinless sacrifice that was needed. All were declared sinners because of one's disobedience. Sin would have been passed on through Christ through man. It was not, because God did not use Mary's egg.

God performed a miracle that day that many do not believe happened.

God did perform a miracle that day. He used an imperfect woman to conceive and bear a sinless son - a Savior for the world. Is your God so feeble that He cannot do this?