Was Mary a surrogate or did she contribute her seed to Jesus??

[grace56]

StandingfirminChrist, you seem to be going back to an old heresie form about the 4th Century. It was either called Nestorianism or Monophysitism I'm not sure which one you may want to google them to see what they are. There is nothing new under the sun!

Grace56

 

[standingfirminChrist]

And yet, all men inherited the sin nature. So if Christ did not inherit the sin nature, although He was man, He was not fully man.

Fully would include the sin nature that all men inherit.

 

[Eliyahu]

It seems to me as if you will never be able to explain the incarnation, as long as your focus is on the Word and only on the Word. It looks like you are disregarding all other Scriptures except that the "Word became flesh." A warning: that is what the cults do.
You must take into account other Scriptures.
You must take into account not only the deity of Christ but also the humanity. Christ was fully man and fully God. You are ignoring the fact that he was fully man and are only considering that he was fully God. Was he fully man Eliyahu? Yes or No?

If yes where did he get that human nature from?
The only plausible answer is that he got it from Mary.
If one irrationally concludes that that leaves the door open for the Immaculate Conception because Christ would have needed a sinless body, then it also leaves the door open that Mary's mother would have needed a sinless mother, and her grandmother, and great-grandmother...all the way back to Adam. Perhaps then we would all be sinless and just foget that fall ever happened. What nonsense!!

The sinful nature is inherited through the "seed" of Adam.
The Bible says specifically that Christ would come through "her seed" that is the seed of the woman or through Mary. The egg or ovum doesn't become or inherit a sinful nature unless it is impregnated by man.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

But Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit who is not sinful. Thus her "seed" was remained sinless and Christ inherited a human nature like us and yet without a sin nature.

Christ was born fully man and fully God at the same time.
God was manifest in the flesh. The Word became flesh. The only way that the Word, the second person of the triune Godhead, could take upon himself man's human nature and still be without sin is to be born by a virgin, which Christ was. He was human: suffered as a human; was tempted in all points as a human; thirsted and hungered as a human, needed rest as a human, etc. This could only happen because he was born as a human and took upon himself human flesh, not divine flesh. He was fully God (the Word), and fully man at the same time.

Why do you continue to neglect to consider the human nature of Christ?

1. Are you saying this?
- Divine Nature came from God
- Human Nature came from Mary

Yah, then you may be saying that those 2 natures are separable !

2. You sound like Virgins are not sinners! Check your statement

3. I already illustrated the Genesis 18:1- where God took the human nature to eat, wash feet, walk, and stretch the hands, wrestled with man before His Incarnation. How can you deny that God can take the human nature before He took anything from Mary?

4. Can God not create another, the second Adam?Answer yes or NO.

5. If sinners can give birth to sinless person, why didn't God do that for millions of others? Sinners's children are sinners !
If Jesus was born out of Ovum of Mary, then He would have been a defective sinner. Jesus was a perfect man, perfect and sinnless person.

6. Those are all connected with other parts of the Bible. You are very much obssessed with the notion that the human nature can come only from the Adam's race, which is untrue.

7. These days, people are making Stem Cell research for human embryo and they succeed in making a Human Embryo only with one egg of a woman plus skin cell. Are they making sinless person if they do it with the ovum of a virgin?

8. If anyman was born by man and woman, then she or he becomes a sinner but if anyone is born only by a woman, then she or he is sinnless, is this what you are saying? There may be many sinnless person born in the future when the stem cell research is advanced !

9 Read 1 Tim 2:14 as well. Sin entered thru a woman first. The reason why Adam is mentioned always is because Adam represent the Adam's race.
Man and Woman are equally sinners. If anything was inherited from Mary to Jesus, one cannot say Word became Flesh, and cannot deny that Blood shed at the Cross was inherited from Mary, and the Blood of Jesus cannot be sinnless. This denies the fundamental Truth of Christianity.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Monophysitism holds that Christ was partly divine, partly human. I do not believe such nonsense.

Nestorianism holds that Christ was both the son of God and the man Jesus.

Scripture declares Him to be the Son of God born of a virgin.

 

[DHK]

Scripture declares Him to be the Son of God born of a virgin.

Scripture also declares him to be the Son of man, which refers to his human nature:

Luke 5:23-24 Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Rise up and walk?
24 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house.
--They knew that only God could forgive sins. Christ was a man--fully man; 100% man; fully man and fully God at the same time, and here is one place where he demonstrated it.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I do not doubt that He was man. That is obvious. But Scripture does not say He had the sin nature that all men inherit, so He was not fully man in that respect.

 

[Eliyahu]

I find it very interesting to see that there are only 2-3 people on this board who support the idea that Jesus had no physical ties to human beings - yet He was fully human and able to fulfill prophecy - AND that there is absolutely no support for this in Scripture or any other theological or historical writings that have been pointed out to me (although I've asked - and the question has been wholly ignored because I suspect there is no support for this idea outside of a few people).

Denying that Jesus was born of a woman - of the seed of woman (that's not my words - it's from the good old KJV itself), makes Jesus not human. Why did God have Him born of a woman if she was just going to be the vessel to hold Him for 9 months? Why not have Him created and walk in from the desert on a donkey as someone else stated? What difference would it make - other than to deceive the people into thinking that He was a regular human being. My God does not deceive and He has clearly spoken. The Word became flesh. Any other child of Mary was not the Word - not the one and only Son of God - not God incarnate. Only a child born of Mary by the power of the Spirit could claim this. In Mary becoming pregnant without having known a man shows that it was a miraculous, only God involved kind of miracle. Jesus carried the DNA of His mother - and His ancestors including David, Abraham, Noah and Adam. That is clear in Scripture. I can't believe someone would come up with this idea on their own and push it as truth and say that the Biblically and historically accepted truth is heresy. That's getting into some shaky ground, IMO.

1. You try to make the false idea become the Truth by relying on the number of supporters. There are billions of Atheists, and they deny the Virgin Birth. Is it True? The Truth doesn't require the number of its supporters.

The Bible rebukes you here: ( Ex 23:2)
2 Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil; neither shalt thou speak in a cause to decline after many to wrest judgment:


2. Many innate deformation, handicapped weaknesses by born such as Blindness are inherited thru the DNA. None of the people of the world is perfect since the sin had entered the world. How come Jesus could be perfect if He is a product of the sinful human = Mary?

3. Are you saying that the Deity of Jesus came from God and that the human nature of His came from Mary? say yes or No

4. Where is the scripture saying that Jesus carried Mary's DNA?
Where is it clear?
Bible just listed the genealogy of the Surrogate Mother and Step-Father. Why does it list the genealogy of Joseph?

 

[DHK]

1. Are you saying this?
- Divine Nature came from God
- Human Nature came from Mary

Yah, then you may be saying that those 2 natures are separable !

The human nature came through or via Mary. The two natures are inseparable as they are to this very day. Even right now Christ sits at the right hand of the throne of God making intercession for us. He still retains His glorified or resurrection body. The nail prints are still in his hands.

2. You sound like Virgins are not sinners! Check your statement

My daughter is a virgin, but believe me she is a sinner.
Mary was a sinner. She said: "I rejoice in God my Savior," indicating that she, a sinner, needed a Savior.
At the time of the circumcision of Jesus, it was the same time of the purification of Mary. According to Levitical law (Lev.12), she took two offerings (one of which was a sin offering) and presented it to the priest as a sin offering. Why would she present a sin offering if she was not a sinner? She was. The fact that Mary was a sinner had nothing to do with Christ being sinless. The other children of Mary: James and Jude, for example, were sinners. James identifies himself as "the brother of our Lord."

3. I already illustrated the Genesis 18:1- where God took the human nature to eat, wash feet, walk, and stretch the hands, wrestled with man before His Incarnation. How can you deny that God can take the human nature before He took anything from Mary?

This proves nothing. There are many theophanies and Christophanies in the OT, where God revealed himself to certain individuals. But he did not reveal himself to the world.
There are also certain times that angels took on bodily form, but they are spirits also. Nothing is impossible with God. Do you question the ways of God?

4. Can God not create another, the second Adam?Answer yes or NO.

God cannot create Himself! Are you a member of a cult like J.W., which believe that Christ is a created being? Christ is from all eternity; always was and always will be.

5. If sinners can give birth to sinless person, why didn't God do that for millions of others? Sinners's children are sinners !

Where in the Bible does it say that? The Word became flesh. God the Son entered this world through a virgin, and took upon himself human flesh by being born through a virgin. The Holy Spirit overshadowed her and she conceived through the Holy Spirit.
It is not that a sinner simply gave birth to a sinless person but that that sinner gave birth to deity, and that deity (Christ) at the same time took upon himself human flesh. He was at the same time wholly flesh and wholly God--two natures which were and are inseparable.

If Jesus was born out of Ovum of Mary, then He would have been a defective sinner. Jesus was a perfect man, perfect and sinnless person.

Do you call the Holy Spirit defective? That is blasphemy! Christ was conceived of the Holy Spirit. Don't forget that. The sin nature is passed from generation to generation through the seed of man.

6. Those are all connected with other parts of the Bible. You are very much obssessed with the notion that the human nature can come only from the Adam's race, which is untrue.

It is true as far as the Bible says it is. Read Romans 5:12,19. "For as by one man sin came into this world and death by sin." Do you deny this statement?

7. These days, people are making Stem Cell research for human embryo and they succeed in making a Human Embryo only with one egg of a woman plus skin cell. Are they making sinless person if they do it with the ovum of a virgin?

No, they are not. And the technology of today is simply a red herring not having anything to do with this discussion. Save it for another thread.

8. If anyman was born by man and woman, then she or he becomes a sinner but if anyone is born only by a woman, then she or he is sinnless, is this what you are saying? There may be many sinnless person born in the future when the stem cell research is advanced !

Again you are off on another red herring. Save your new technology for another thread. I believe the Bible when it says "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Do you believe that?
I believe the Bible when it tells us that Christ was sinless and undefiled. Do you believe that?

9 Read 1 Tim 2:14 as well. Sin entered thru a woman first. The reason why Adam is mentioned always is because Adam represent the Adam's race.
Man and Woman are equally sinners. If anything was inherited from Mary to Jesus, one cannot say Word became Flesh, and cannot deny that Blood shed at the Cross was inherited from Mary, and the Blood of Jesus cannot be sinnless. This denies the fundamental Truth of Christianity.

The Bible says in Romans 5:12 that sin entered this world through Adam. Either you believe the Bible or not. If you have a problem here you need to study the Bible more carefully. Or I could just say take your argument up with God.
The fact is that Eve was deceived.
Adam rebelled directly against the command of God knowing full well what he was doing. As head of the human race he was also somewhat responsible for the actions of his wife. Thus the sin was accounted to him.

The human nature of Christ did indeed come through Mary. The Bible says it did. In many places does the Bible say that Christ was born of Mary. How can you deny that?
Paul said:

Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

 

[DHK]

I do not doubt that He was man. That is obvious. But Scripture does not say He had the sin nature that all men inherit, so He was not fully man in that respect.

No the Bible doesn't say that; in fact you are the only one on this board that seems to be saying that.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

No the Bible doesn't say that; in fact you are the only one on this board that seems to be saying that.

You must have misunderstood me. Here is my last statement

But Scripture does not say He had the sin nature that all men inherit, so He was not fully man in that respect.

What I was saying is that Scripture does not say that Christ had the sin nature that all men inherit. What followed that statement 'so He was not fully man in that respect' was my own reflections of the fact that He had not the sin nature so He therefore was not fully man.

I stand by that belief. Christ did not have a wicked and deceitful heart. He did not have a sin nature. He could not have been fully man.

 

[DHK]

You must have misunderstood me. Here is my last statement

But Scripture does not say He had the sin nature that all men inherit, so He was not fully man in that respect.

What I was saying is that Scripture does not say that Christ had the sin nature that all men inherit. What followed that statement 'so He was not fully man in that respect' was my own reflections of the fact that He had not the sin nature so He therefore was not fully man.

I stand by that belief. Christ did not have a wicked and deceitful heart. He did not have a sin nature. He could not have been fully man.

1 Peter 2:21-24 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
--Was he suffering as God? or as man?
He was wholly man. He prayed in the garden: not my will, but thine be done. It was the prayer of a man to God the Father. He told Peter to put up his sword, telling him he could have called 12 legions of angels to rescue him. These were the words of a perfect and complete man. "I thirst" he uttered from the cross. It wasn't the nature of God that uttered those words; it was the complete and whole nature of God the man, dying for the sins of all mankind.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
--How did Christ suffer? He suffered as a man; a perfect man; a just man. He was a just and perfect man dying for an unjust and imperfect mankind. Why? He loved us enough to die for us that he might bring us to God. It says specifically that "he was put to death in the flesh. He was perfect and wholly man.

How can you deny the Scriptures?

 

[Eliyahu]

The human nature came through or via Mary. The two natures are inseparable as they are to this very day. Even right now Christ sits at the right hand of the throne of God making intercession for us. He still retains His glorified or resurrection body. The nail prints are still in his hands.
My daughter is a virgin, but believe me she is a sinner.
Mary was a sinner. She said: "I rejoice in God my Savior," indicating that she, a sinner, needed a Savior.
At the time of the circumcision of Jesus, it was the same time of the purification of Mary. According to Levitical law (Lev.12), she took two offerings (one of which was a sin offering) and presented it to the priest as a sin offering. Why would she present a sin offering if she was not a sinner? She was. The fact that Mary was a sinner had nothing to do with Christ being sinless. The other children of Mary: James and Jude, for example, were sinners. James identifies himself as "the brother of our Lord."

Mary was a sinner, as you confess, then the ovum of a sinner became the flesh of Jesus ( This is what you are saying, right?)
How can you say that the Blood inherited from the sinner was Sinless?

to the world.[/b]
There are also certain times that angels took on bodily form, but they are spirits also. Nothing is impossible with God. Do you question the ways of God?

God revealed Himself to the world even before the Incarnation. LORD ate the food offered by Abraham. Was Abraham outside the world? Jacob wrestled with God the Son, Was Jacob in the dream?

God cannot create Himself! Are you a member of a cult like J.W., which believe that Christ is a created being? Christ is from all eternity; always was and always will be.

A typical Witch Hunting.

Where in the Bible does it say that? The Word became flesh. God the Son entered this world through a virgin, and took upon himself human flesh by being born through a virgin. The Holy Spirit overshadowed her and she conceived through the Holy Spirit.

Bible says Word became Flesh. Then did there exist 2 kinds of flesh in Jesus? One flesh from the egg of Mary, the other from the Word?

It is not that a sinner simply gave birth to a sinless person but that that sinner gave birth to deity, and that deity (Christ) at the same time took upon himself human flesh. He was at the same time wholly flesh and wholly God--two natures which were and are inseparable.

So, you are saying Flesh became another Flesh. then Where did it happen that Word became Flesh?

Do you call the Holy Spirit defective? That is blasphemy!

Are you illiterate? Read my post ! Typical Witch Hunting again! If you are a True Christian Believer, please behave like that, don't abuse your authority as a Mod here.

Christ was conceived of the Holy Spirit. Don't forget that. The sin nature is passed from generation to generation through the seed of man.
It is true as far as the Bible says it is. Read Romans 5:12,19. "For as by one man sin came into this world and death by sin." Do you deny this statement?

A typical problem from Greek Illiterate! check the word there. Is a Woman not Anthropou?

YOur whole theology is based on the false assumption that the sins were transmitted only thru men, not thru women ! But the Bible says, all are sinners, including women, then how can you deny that the sins can be transmitted even thru women.

In your theology, sins can be avoided if human embryos can be created only with women's ovums without sperms. In some years the human embryo will be created without sperms, only with eggs plus skin cell etc.
Then will there be sinnless people a lot in the world? Hardly!

No, they are not. And the technology of today is simply a red herring not having anything to do with this discussion. Save it for another thread.
Again you are off on another red herring. Save your new technology for another thread. I believe the Bible when it says "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Do you believe that?

As if I had never believed it!
Is it a New Technology that Word became Flesh?
You are strongly denying it by claiming Flesh( ovum of Mary) became Flesh ( of Jesus)

I believe the Bible when it tells us that Christ was sinless and undefiled. Do you believe that?
The Bible says in Romans 5:12 that sin entered this world through Adam. Either you believe the Bible or not. If you have a problem here you need to study the Bible more carefully. Or I could just say take your argument up with God.
The fact is that Eve was deceived.
Adam rebelled directly against the command of God knowing full well what he was doing. As head of the human race he was also somewhat responsible for the actions of his wife. Thus the sin was accounted to him.

The human nature of Christ did indeed come through Mary. The Bible says it did. In many places does the Bible say that Christ was born of Mary. How can you deny that?

Again check the Greek Bible. Read Genesis 3 as well. Did Adam eat the fruit first and then passed it to Eve?
Have I ever denied that Jesus was born of Mary before? Groundless accusation.

Paul said:
Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

ginomai there means "come out of" nothing more than that.
Was Jesus manufactured by Mary?

 

[donnA]

No I did not misread your posts. Rather what you wrote was an unwitting admission of the immaculate conception. You said, What i think you meant was that if Jesus has carried Mary's blood, this means He had to have a sinful nature because Mary had a sinful nature. However what you actually said means that if Jesus carried Mary's blood, Mary would have to be free from sin for Jesus to be free from sin. So if Mary was free from sin then it would be plausible that she could be His biological mother who contributed half of His DNA. Guess what? Those who believe in the immaculate conception believe that is why Mary was created free from original sin.

What I was saying, and misunderstand all you want, is that if Jesus carried anything from Mary, that He had the sin nature, since we know He did not, means He did not carry anything from Mary. NOT that He didn't have the sin nature because Mary did not have it.
I implied none of what you beleive I did.

 

[donnA]

As Zenas stated, you just made the case for the RC Immaculate Conception. What you believe regarding us inheriting Adam’s sin is Augustinian theology and Augustine was a huge Western Church Father. Furthermore, the early Reformers took Augustine’s theology and developed it further.

Orthodoxy as did the Early Church believes and teaches that man inherits Adam’s death, not his sin, but we are in a fallen state and we choose to eventually sin. In Jesus’ case He identifies with His fallen creation by taking on human flesh from a woman and Jesus did die, but His human nature’s desire to sin submitted to His divine nature and thus He never sinned (Of course this is just skimming the surface, the theology is much deeper).

ICXC NIKA
-

See my post #93 in response to zenas

 

[standingfirminChrist]

1 Peter 2:21-24 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
--Was he suffering as God? or as man?
He was wholly man. He prayed in the garden: not my will, but thine be done. It was the prayer of a man to God the Father. He told Peter to put up his sword, telling him he could have called 12 legions of angels to rescue him. These were the words of a perfect and complete man. "I thirst" he uttered from the cross. It wasn't the nature of God that uttered those words; it was the complete and whole nature of God the man, dying for the sins of all mankind.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
--How did Christ suffer? He suffered as a man; a perfect man; a just man. He was a just and perfect man dying for an unjust and imperfect mankind. Why? He loved us enough to die for us that he might bring us to God. It says specifically that "he was put to death in the flesh. He was perfect and wholly man.

How can you deny the Scriptures?

First off, I do not deny the Scripture; and I resent being accused of doing so.

I have said I believe Christ was fully God. I have also said He was man. Scripture bears this out. But it does not say He was fully man. That is a man-made phrase and doctrine that cannot be backed with the Word at all.

He did not have the sin nature that was passed to all mankind. He did not have the wicked and deceitful heart that mankind has because of sin. He did not come forth speaking lies.

 

[donnA]

If Mary was nothing more than a oven for Jesus than how is He Son of Man?

Now, I understand why people try and downplay Mary, mostly it comes as a reaction to the RCC's idolatry of her, but to completely write her out of the story, that is a new one.

Why is it so hard to believe God miraculously created Jesus' human body and placed it in Mary.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Why is it so hard to believe God miraculously created Jesus' human body and placed it in Mary.

Amen, Donna. If He could form man from the dust of the ground, it is just as possible for Him to form the Son in Mary.

 

[donnA]

Mary wasn't Jesus's "surragate " mother she was and is his mother. How could she be anything else. Luke 1:31 "Behold you will concieve in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call him Jesus" I have given birth to two son's that were concieved in my womb and I am their mother, they have an earthly father, Jesus's has a heavenly father. Why should Mary not be considered Jesus's mother?

Yep, and in your body you created flesh from your flesh and your husband's flesh. But the bible says something different about Jesus. Since He is God, created by the Father (God), it can not be compared, as neither you nor your husband (same for me and my husband) are God. There is nothing in exsistance to compare it with.

 

[MichelleinPA]

Why is it so hard to believe God miraculously created Jesus' human body and placed it in Mary.

Because Scripture does not support the idea that Mary did not conceive Christ. End of story. And no amount of Scripture twisting will prove that she did not conceive Him.

 

[donnA]

Jesus being sinless has nothing to do with an egg or any seed. He was sinless because He is God. Period. End of story.

He is fully God and He was fully man. He can not be fully man, if He was not conceived by Mary.

To say that the Bible doesn't say what it says seems pretty arrogant to me. What is the saying, if the plain sense makes common sense, seek no other sense.

A baby inherits from it's mother through that egg, same as it would have Jesus, He would have inherited the sin nature, same as we all do. Adam wasn't concieved, was he fully man, fully human? No, God created his human flesh, same as He did Jesus. What makes no sense is to say Jesus had Mary's dna, inherited the sin nature from her, when we know this is not true in the least.