Was MLK Jr. a Christian?

[Van]

Please stop changing your story.

You said that MLK had to lie about his beliefs to get a good grade.

Then you offered proof in that colleges require a certain format for bibliographies.

Now your proof is multiple submittal?

The submission process is to clean up writing-format errors, elimate presuppositions (make sure the student is legitimately defending his or her point, avoiding that type of error), and legitimate use of sources.

It eliminates errors we see daily in debates here (not actually supporting a conclusion, logical errors, "plain meaning", "normal meaning", ect.).

Look, @Van , believe what you want. Any member here who has written a theological thesis, or a thesis in literature or philosophy, knows you are wrong.

I'm not saying Crozer taught in that way, but addressing the fact that you are wrong in your statement regarding having to restate a professors views to get a good grade in seminary.

MLK may have, as you imply, lacked character while attending Crozer and Boston University. He may have lied for his own gain. I just do not see that he was that kind of man.

MLK seems to me to be a man who had the character to stand for what he believed was right.

Do you have proof he was a fraud?

Folks, the endless false claims simply waste my time. Did you see a quote where I said MLK Jr lied. Those are JonC words, not mine.

 

[JonC]

Folks, the endless false claims simply waste my time. Did you see a quote where I said MLK Jr lied. Those are JonC words, not mine.

Yes, I used the word "lied". But that is what you describe MLK of doing to get a good grade.

Point is MLK did not shy away from speaking what he believed was true.

He voiced his beliefs knowing he would be beaten and jailed for doing so.

Yet you expect us to believe he would pretend to believe something in several writings just to get a good grade?????

MLK had more character, was more of a man, than you give him credit. He just held beliefs that excluded him from our faith.

 

[Van]

Yes, I used the word "lied". But that is what you describe MLK of doing to get a good grade.

Point is MLK did not shy away from speaking what he believed was true.

He voiced his beliefs knowing he would be beaten and jailed for doing so.

Yet you expect us to believe he would pretend to believe something in several writings just to get a good grade?????

MLK had more character, was more of a man, than you give him credit. He just held beliefs that excluded him from our faith.

Every hear of doublespeak? If I remember correctly, you claimed his letters and sermons were doublespeak, but his submission paper was plainly put, I just suggest the opposite might be true.

 

[JonC]

Every hear of doublespeak? If I remember correctly, you claimed his letters and sermons were doublespeak, but his submission paper was plainly put, I just suggest the opposite might be true.

No. I do not believe his letters and sermons were doublespeak. I believe he used what we call doublespeak.

He explained this in his autobiography, with Jones mentoring him to reconcile the teachings at Crozer with Christianity. The resurrection occurred, it just wasn't a bodily resurrection, Jesus was not literally divine, but shared the divine consciousness, etc.


Your logic is flawed. His academic papers explain what is mentioned in his sermons. The sermons are left, I believe intentionally (as MLK indicated doctrines such as the resurrection are up for interpretation - noting Paul rejected the idea Chriat physically rose from the dead) up to interpretation.

 

[Van]

No. I do not believe his letters and sermons were doublespeak. I believe he used what we call doublespeak.

He explained this in his autobiography, with Jones mentoring him to reconcile the teachings at Crozer with Christianity. The resurrection occurred, it just wasn't a bodily resurrection, Jesus was not literally divine, but shared the divine consciousness, etc.


Your logic is flawed. His academic papers explain what is mentioned in his sermons. The sermons are left, I believe intentionally (as MLK indicated doctrines such as the resurrection are up for interpretation - noting Paul rejected the idea Chriat physically rose from the dead) up to interpretation.

More assertions but no links to where these claims are substantiated.

 

[Van]

Why do you suppose those on the Left relentlessly attack American Icons? They want to remove President Lincoln's name from schools, and remove Thomas Jefferson's statue from the square. They deny American exceptionalism. JFK is said to be a womanizer, Bobby vindictive, and Marty was not really a Christian.

But do you see stories about the millions killed by Mr. Stalin, or Mao? How about the wonderful land of Cuba?

 

[JonC]

More assertions but no links to where these claims are substantiated.

Because we are still talking about sources that have already been provided.

 

[JonC]

Why do you suppose those on the Left relentlessly attack American Icons? They want to remove President Lincoln's name from schools, and remove Thomas Jefferson's statue from the square. They deny American exceptionalism. JFK is said to be a womanizer, Bobby vindictive, and Marty was not really a Christian.

But do you see stories about the millions killed by Mr. Stalin, or Mao? How about the wonderful land of Cuba?

You are confused.

Nobody is attacking MLK (with the exception, perhaps, of you attacking his character as a young seminary student).

Thomas Jefferson should be acknowledged for his accomplishments. Acknowledging that he was not a Christian (although he said "Christian things") is not attacking Jefferson.

Same with MLK.

The problem is not MLK but Christians who cheapen the gospel by maintaining that belief in Christ's bodily resurrection, His virgin birth, or His actual divinity is optional.

 

[Van]

Because we are still talking about sources that have already been provided.

LOL, no link or even a snippet is provided, so these "sources" all seem to be from papers submitted to please the grader.

 

[Van]

You are confused.

Nobody is attacking MLK (with the exception, perhaps, of you attacking his character as a young seminary student).

Thomas Jefferson should be acknowledged for his accomplishments. Acknowledging that he was not a Christian (although he said "Christian things") is not attacking Jefferson.

Same with MLK.

The problem is not MLK but Christians who cheapen the gospel by maintaining that belief in Christ's bodily resurrection, His virgin birth, or His actual divinity is optional.

Notice this poster attacks me personally as one who is confused? Undermining MLK Jr's status as a Christian is an attack on his character.

Folks, the Godless Left has an agenda, do not let them undermine our historical icons of American exceptionalism.

 

[JonC]

LOL, no link or even a snippet is provided, so these "sources" all seem to be from papers submitted to please the grader.

No. The sources were MLK's thesis degending his position in seminary, a letter, and his autobiography.

You have provided no source that he used terms in a way other than he explained those terms.

 

[JonC]

Notice this poster attacks me personally as one who is confused? Undermining MLK Jr's status as a Christian is an attack on his character.

Folks, the Godless Left has an agenda, do not let them undermine our historical icons of American exceptionalism.

No, it is not attacking you personally. I don't know you and am giving you the benefit of the doubt.

I do not care about the godless left. Not sure why you even bring them up. MLK was a leftist in terms of his theology (he rejected the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection, and was a part of starting a progressive Baptist denomination). But that is not, IMH, the "godless left".

In terms of his politics, MLK was not very vocal (other than social justice issues and being skeptical of Capitalism). So I guess you could say he was a leftist. But he did not formally endorse a political party.

I would characterize you as a liberal in terms of Christianity, but I think that is obvious to most on this board. If you support MLK's skepticism of Capitalism, then perhaps you are a political leftist as well. I don't have enough information to know. But I don't think you are "godless".

Point is the leftist liberals (political and religious leftists) are the ones who consider MLK "Christian". The denomination MLK helped start is uniquely leftist and Democrat.

I guess that is another good point. MLK's complaint against the NBC was that they preached personal salvation rather than political social activism.

 

[Van]

No. The sources were MLK's thesis degending his position in seminary, a letter, and his autobiography.

You have provided no source that he used terms in a way other than he explained those terms.

Are you really saying MLK Jr must prove his views are other than those expressed in papers submitted for a grade?

What quotes were provided, what post number that had quotes from his autobiography? I must have missed those?

 

[Van]

No, it is not attacking you personally. I don't know you and am giving you the benefit of the doubt.

I do not care about the godless left. Not sure why you even bring them up. MLK was a leftist in terms of his theology (he rejected the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection, and was a part of starting a progressive Baptist denomination). But that is not, IMH, the "godless left".

In terms of his politics, MLK was not very vocal (other than social justice issues and being skeptical of Capitalism). So I guess you could say he was a leftist. But he did not formally endorse a political party.

I would characterize you as a liberal in terms of Christianity, but I think that is obvious to most on this board. If you support MLK's skepticism of Capitalism, then perhaps you are a political leftist as well. I don't have enough information to know. But I don't think you are "godless".

Point is the leftist liberals (political and religious leftists) are the ones who consider MLK "Christian". The denomination MLK helped start is uniquely leftist and Democrat.

I guess that is another good point. MLK's complaint against the NBC was that they preached personal salvation rather than political social activism.

If I said you were confused, you might think your cognitive capacity was being attacked!
Your thread is out of the godless left playbook!
Now you employ the leftist ploy of charging your opponent with doing what you are doing. Remember the Democrats were both leftists and segregationists. Now the Wokers say your race determines your place in our culture, whether the white supremacists or the black victims. That is the opposite of judging people by the content of their character.

 

[JonC]

Are you really saying MLK Jr must prove his views are other than those expressed in papers submitted for a grade?

What quotes were provided, what post number that had quotes from his autobiography? I must have missed those?

I am saying that you need to provide evidence that MLK was lying when he explained that he believes that Christ's resurrection was not bodily but spiritual as that God consciousness did not die with Jesus but lives on in true believers and that MLK was lying when he claimed to have arrived at that belief through the mentorship of Jones as a reconciliation of Crozer's teachings with Christianity.

 

[JonC]

If I said you were confused, you might think your cognitive capacity was being attacked!
Your thread is out of the godless left playbook!
Now you employ the leftist ploy of charging your opponent with doing what you are doing. Remember the Democrats were both leftists and segregationists. Now the Wokers say your race determines your place in our culture, whether the white supremacists or the black victims. That is the opposite of judging people by the content of their character.

I understand that is what you may think.

I was not speaking about wokers. You are just throwing trash against the wall to see if anything sticks.

I noted that MLK was skeptical of Captialism because you brought up leftist.

Now, concerning wokeness, that did not exist during MLK's day. Unless you ate talking about starting a Baptist denomination based on social justice and race, then I suppose you could call MLK "woke". But that's pushing it. He was working within a context that demanded a racial focus.

I agree with MLK that men should be judged by their character. This is a reason MLK praised Gandhi as having the "spirit of God". But where we differ is you are basing Chriatianity on character rather than Christ.

That is where you are wrong. Christianity focuses on Christ and His gospel - urging men to be reconciled to God. NOT as MLK (and you, I think) believe - focusing on political social activism.

The way Chriatians change the world is through Christ. We cannot do this if we, as you imply, redefine Christianity to exclude Him.

 

[Van]

I am saying that you need to provide evidence that MLK was lying when he explained that he believes that Christ's resurrection was not bodily but spiritual as that God consciousness did not die with Jesus but lives on in true believers and that MLK was lying when he claimed to have arrived at that belief through the mentorship of Jones as a reconciliation of Crozer's teachings with Christianity.

You make a bogus claim, MLK Jr was lying, then ask me to prove otherwise. Not very rigorous.

Think about this if you can. Jesus said He would be three days in the earth. I think that counts the end of Friday, all day Saturday and the beginning of Easter Sunday. So if His body was in the tomb to the end of Saturday, how did He and the thief go to heaven on Friday? Sounds like a spiritual resurrection occurred before His bodily resurrection. Do you deny this?

 

[Van]

I understand that is what you may think.

I was not speaking about wokers. You are just throwing trash against the wall to see if anything sticks.

I noted that MLK was skeptical of Captialism because you brought up leftist.

Now, concerning wokeness, that did not exist during MLK's day. Unless you ate talking about starting a Baptist denomination based on social justice and race, then I suppose you could call MLK "woke". But that's pushing it. He was working within a context that demanded a racial focus.

I agree with MLK that men should be judged by their character. This is a reason MLK praised Gandhi as having the "spirit of God". But where we differ is you are basing Chriatianity on character rather than Christ.

That is where you are wrong. Christianity focuses on Christ and His gospel - urging men to be reconciled to God. NOT as MLK (and you, I think) believe - focusing on political social activism.

The way Chriatians change the world is through Christ. We cannot do this if we, as you imply, redefine Christianity to exclude Him.

The left and wokers are the same folks, trained Marxists. They bash American Icons like MLK Jr.

 

[JonC]

You make a bogus claim, MLK Jr was lying, then ask me to prove otherwise. Not very rigorous.

Think about this if you can. Jesus said He would be three days in the earth. I think that counts the end of Friday, all day Saturday and the beginning of Easter Sunday. So if His body was in the tomb to the end of Saturday, how did He and the thief go to heaven on Friday? Sounds like a spiritual resurrection occurred before His bodily resurrection. Do you deny this?

You are saying MLK lied in his papers at Crozer and Boston University as well as the writings published in his autobiography.

You are saying MLK lacked the character it would take to honestly defend his faith for fear of recieving a bad grade.

But do I deny what? MLK's sermons? Of course not.

He said in his autobiography that Jones mentorship helped to reconcile the teachings of Crozer with Christianity.

Today we call it "double speak".

Do you deny that MLK - AFTER Crozer - explained that Paul taught that the resurrection was not physical but spiritual, as opposed to the teachings of the original Disciples - and that, therefore, either view is fine????

 

[Van]

"Oh God, our gracious Heavenly Father, we come on this Easter morning, thanking Thee for revealing to us the ultimate meaning and the ultimate rationality of the universe. We thank you, this morning, for your Son, Jesus, who came by to let us know that love is the most durable power in the world, who came by to let us know that death can’t defeat us, to take the sting out of the grave and death and make it possible for all of us to have eternal life. We thank you, oh God. And God grant that we will be grateful recipients of thy eternal blessings. In the name and spirit of Jesus, we pray. Amen"​

Did MLK Jr believe Jesus was the Son of God? Yes
Did MLK Jr believe Jesus made if possible for all of us to have eternal life? Yes
Did MLK Jr believe we need to pray according to revelation of Christ? Yes