Was sin foreordained and pre-determined by God

[freeatlast]

Interesting.....now if I told you that my salvation did not involve any faith....not until I was saved by Gods grace, what would you say in response?

You did not get saved when you thought you did. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[freeatlast]

One question is, How does God draw us? I say it is by the preaching of the Gospel, not some mystical, unknown reason.

By the Spirit and preaching. The Spirit first draws us then the preaching works faith and if we repent then we are saved.

 

[righteousdude2]

A Ton of Great Thoughts and Theories, But....

.....I think this question can only be answered with irrefutable certainty when we get to heaven, and God tells us what He was thinking when He floated this before us.

Everything else sounds highly intellectual and quite scholarly, but it doesn't have the full and complete authority behind such an open-ended question. This question and its answer will have to be deferred until.........:saint:

Sorry. If you disagree with me, that's your right. However, I prefer to defer until I can sit down With God and get the real answer for this and many, many other questions I have!

Anything put forth by well meaning folks on this forum and in this life is merely theological speculation!

 

[zrs6v4]

Righteous dude,

I hate to say this but I disagree with your theory .

Sounds like the excuse, "billions of religions in the world and its outright arrogant to claim you have the answer!"

No offense

 

[The Archangel]

In the Greek it plainly states it differently Believe comes before appointed to eternal life. Better luck! try again

You are not correct about the Greek. While it is true that "believe" comes before "appointed," it doesn't mean that one believes first and then is appointed.

Here is the text of the verse in Greek:

Ἀκούοντα δὲ τὰ ἔθνη ἔχαιρον καὶ ἐδόξαζον τὸν λόγον τοῦ κυρίου καὶ ἐπίστευσαν ὅσοι ἦσαν τεταγμένοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον·​

Here's a very wooden translation of the emboldened portion: καὶ (and) ἐπίστευσαν (they believed) ὅσοι (as many as) ἦσαν (were) τεταγμένοι (having been appointed) εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον (into life eternal)

Now, in Greek the word order is not nearly as important as it is in English. In the clause we're discussing, the simple sentence is "They Believed." Then, we get clarifications--who were those who believed? All the ones having been appointed to eternal life.

It may be tempting to try to apply English word order rules, but the fact that the participle "having been appointed" is itself a perfect passive participle tells us these things: The perfect tells us that the action has been completed in the past and has an effect into the present. The passive tells us that the subject (the ones believing in this case) did not act upon themselves. They were acted upon.

When you juxtapose "they believed," an Aorist Active Indicative with the perfect passive participle "having been appointed" you get the distinct picture that the ones who believed at that event did so because they were appointed at some time in the past an they did not appoint themselves in any way.

So, thought "believed" comes first in the sentence, because of the way Greek works, the clause is not saying the belief preceded the appointment. In fact it is saying the appointment preceded the belief and the belief was a consequence of the appointment.

Yes and she was already a worshipper of God one must believe to worship. Opening a heart is a lot different than actual regeneration.

There is a difference, however, between a "worshiper of God" and someone who believes in Christ. The very text about Lydia bears this out. Though she was a God worshiper, she still needed to respond to the Gospel. Though she was a God worshiper, she still needed God to open her heart to respond to the Gospel.

In Acts, when we see the phrase "God worshiper," it is referring to someone who has converted to Judaism. Though Lydia was a convert to Judaism, she still needed the Gospel (as Jews today need the Gospel). The text clearly states that Lydia responded to the Gospel Paul was preaching precisely because God opened her heart. There really is no honest way around that.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[righteousdude2]

No Offense Taken.....

Righteous dude,

I hate to say this but I disagree with your theory .

Sounds like the excuse, "billions of religions in the world and its outright arrogant to claim you have the answer!"

No offense

....But, we'll both have to see who was right in the end :thumbs:

 

[zrs6v4]

....But, we'll both have to see who was right in the end :thumbs:

Unless Scripture reveals one sided or the other and one side is wrong. I speak to a lot of skeptics to the faith altogether and it is no different than arguing doctrine within the church then arguing with them. I try not to allow all the dispute on this topic scare me away from Scripture. I understand what your saying but i find this truth to beautiful to push aside until i die.

Just out of curiosity, why do you think this subject is the central debate in Christian circles?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You did not get saved when you thought you did. :smilewinkgrin:

LOL & with all due respect, you do not know me or how I was prior to conversation. I was a mean & nasty SOB who would have done any evil because I loved it....it was my reality. I did not believe, I was an enemy of God & I liked it that that way. To even think for a nanosecond that I could believe & have faith is ridiculous. How can you even fathom the mind of a rank sinner?

Here is the heart of the problem as it involves seeking or choosing God. When confronted with God, the mind of a sinner never thinks that Gods way is good. THE WILL IS FREE TO CHOOSE GOD. Nothing is stopping it. But the mind does not regard submission to and service of God as desirable. Rather, it turns from God, even when the gospel is presented. It turns away because it does not want God to be sovereign over it. It does not consider the righteousness of God to be the way to personal fulfillment or happiness. It does not want its sinfulness exposed. The mind is wrong in its judgments, of course. The way it chooses is actually the way of alienation and misery, the end of which is death. But human beings think that sin is best. Therefore, unless God changes the way we are---which He does by the miracle of the new birth---our minds always tell us to turn from God.:godisgood:

 

[quantumfaith]

Righteous dude,

I hate to say this but I disagree with your theory .

Sounds like the excuse, "billions of religions in the world and its outright arrogant to claim you have the answer!"

No offense

zrs,

I did not read it as an "arrogant excuse" at all. Our "faith" is the core of everything we "think" we know about the God we worship (YHWH). It is essential. Same goes for anyone who deifies and worships some "other" god. Our faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob rests upon our "faith" in the scriptures being the source of absolute truth in this world.

 

[Robert Snow]

LOL & with all due respect, you do not know me or how I was prior to conversation. I was a mean & nasty SOB who would have done any evil because I loved it....it was my reality. I did not believe, I was an enemy of God & I liked it that that way. To even think for a nanosecond that I could believe & have faith is ridiculous. How can you even fathom the mind of a rank sinner?

Here is the heart of the problem as it involves seeking or choosing God. When confronted with God, the mind of a sinner never thinks that Gods way is good. THE WILL IS FREE TO CHOOSE GOD. Nothing is stopping it. But the mind does not regard submission to and service of God as desirable. Rather, it turns from God, even when the gospel is presented. It turns away because it does not want God to be sovereign over it. It does not consider the righteousness of God to be the way to personal fulfillment or happiness. It does not want its sinfulness exposed. The mind is wrong in its judgments, of course. The way it chooses is actually the way of alienation and misery, the end of which is death. But human beings think that sin is best. Therefore, unless God changes the way we are---which He does by the miracle of the new birth---our minds always tell us to turn from God.:godisgood:

You sure do mention how "bad" you were in the past. Perhaps you should stop glorying in it as though you were the only one or even the worse of all sinners. It's my understanding that that position has already been taken, just ask Paul the Apostle.

Also, just because you claim that no one like you would ever seek God doesn't make it true. One example hardly makes a pattern.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You sure do mention how "bad" you were in the past. Perhaps you should stop glorying in it as though you were the only one or even the worse of all sinners. It's my understanding that that position has already been taken, just ask Paul the Apostle.

Also, just because you claim that no one like you would ever seek God doesn't make it true. One example hardly makes a pattern.

Well the old adage is to "know thyself" and I certainly do...my point was that "how can you make commentary on my salvation when you were not there & truly know anything about my past & my interaction with the HS?" Plus I'm not going to be apologetic about my salvation because it doesnt fit comfortably into your belief system. That kind of thinking process is the embodiment of narrow mindedness, which we can agree is rampent on both sides of the isle.....however I personally refuse to put God in a box. And your correct, the Apostle Paul also experienced a like transformation (regeneration) as did Augustine as well as many other brothers & sisters so I'm hardly alone in my testimony...and I never claimed otherwise. I'm just thankful for the Gift of eternal life..... that which some here say I'm not entitled to. :laugh:

 

[Luke2427]

You are not correct about the Greek. While it is true that "believe" comes before "appointed," it doesn't mean that one believes first and then is appointed.

Here is the text of the verse in Greek:

Ἀκούοντα δὲ τὰ ἔθνη ἔχαιρον καὶ ἐδόξαζον τὸν λόγον τοῦ κυρίου καὶ ἐπίστευσαν ὅσοι ἦσαν τεταγμένοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον·​

Here's a very wooden translation of the emboldened portion: καὶ (and) ἐπίστευσαν (they believed) ὅσοι (as many as) ἦσαν (were) τεταγμένοι (having been appointed) εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον (into life eternal)

Now, in Greek the word order is not nearly as important as it is in English. In the clause we're discussing, the simple sentence is "They Believed." Then, we get clarifications--who were those who believed? All the ones having been appointed to eternal life.

It may be tempting to try to apply English word order rules, but the fact that the participle "having been appointed" is itself a perfect passive participle tells us these things: The perfect tells us that the action has been completed in the past and has an effect into the present. The passive tells us that the subject (the ones believing in this case) did not act upon themselves. They were acted upon.

When you juxtapose "they believed," an Aorist Active Indicative with the perfect passive participle "having been appointed" you get the distinct picture that the ones who believed at that event did so because they were appointed at some time in the past an they did not appoint themselves in any way.

So, thought "believed" comes first in the sentence, because of the way Greek works, the clause is not saying the belief preceded the appointment. In fact it is saying the appointment preceded the belief and the belief was a consequence of the appointment.



There is a difference, however, between a "worshiper of God" and someone who believes in Christ. The very text about Lydia bears this out. Though she was a God worshiper, she still needed to respond to the Gospel. Though she was a God worshiper, she still needed God to open her heart to respond to the Gospel.

In Acts, when we see the phrase "God worshiper," it is referring to someone who has converted to Judaism. Though Lydia was a convert to Judaism, she still needed the Gospel (as Jews today need the Gospel). The text clearly states that Lydia responded to the Gospel Paul was preaching precisely because God opened her heart. There really is no honest way around that.

Blessings,

The Archangel

Excellent work as usual Archangel. Thank you.

I hope in the years to come, as I continue to pursue my education, I will be able to utilize the tools of our trade as well as you do. Thanks for sharing this!

 

[preacher4truth]

Well the old adage is to "know thyself" and I certainly do...my point was that "how can you make commentary on my salvation when you were not there & truly know anything about my past & my interaction with the HS?" Plus I'm not going to be apologetic about my salvation because it doesnt fit comfortably into your belief system. That kind of thinking process is the embodiment of narrow mindedness, which we can agree is rampent on both sides of the isle.....however I personally refuse to put God in a box. And your correct, the Apostle Paul also experienced a like transformation (regeneration) as did Augustine as well as many other brothers & sisters so I'm hardly alone in my testimony...and I never claimed otherwise. I'm just thankful for the Gift of eternal life..... that which some here say I'm not entitled to. :laugh:

Bob is rebuking you for being Biblical, i.e., for sharing your testimony, as did Paul? I mean, seemingly nothing a person does, even when it is Biblical is acceptable to Bob. Could it be due to your theology EWF?

 

[MB]

One question is, How does God draw us? I say it is by the preaching of the Gospel, not some mystical, unknown reason.

I believe God is involved in every aspect of our being drawn. Even before you hear the gospel. He makes sure the opportunity to hear comes your way. It's all part of the drawing process. Even while searching for something to listen to on the radio.
MB

 

[MB]

You are not correct about the Greek. While it is true that "believe" comes before "appointed," it doesn't mean that one believes first and then is appointed.

Sentence construction and grammar Have it's place I agree. Yet if you study Greek and consider the construct of how this verse is put together. It certainly cast alot of doubt on the Calvinist claims of being appointed before belief. Especially when every where else in scripture belief always comes first. Actually imo this verse should have been translated by considering how Salvation occurs every where else in scripture.

I Believe it is dangerous to base your doctrine on just one verse that you feel agrees with your particular view.
See you after church.
MB

 

[MB]

Interesting.....now if I told you that my salvation did not involve any faith....not until I was saved by Gods grace, what would you say in response?

I would disagree and you already know this to be true.
MB

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I would disagree and you already know this to be true.
MB

fiddlesticks......"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio/ MB, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

By thinking thus your in danger of quenching the spirit and putting limits upon the power of God, the Holy Spirit.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Excellent work as usual Archangel. Thank you.

I hope in the years to come, as I continue to pursue my education, I will be able to utilize the tools of our trade as well as you do. Thanks for sharing this!

Watch out Luke, you may get to a point your buying all your clothes from L.L. Bean some day

 

[freeatlast]

LOL & with all due respect, you do not know me or how I was prior to conversation. I was a mean & nasty SOB who would have done any evil because I loved it....it was my reality. I did not believe, I was an enemy of God & I liked it that that way. To even think for a nanosecond that I could believe & have faith is ridiculous. How can you even fathom the mind of a rank sinner?

Here is the heart of the problem as it involves seeking or choosing God. When confronted with God, the mind of a sinner never thinks that Gods way is good. THE WILL IS FREE TO CHOOSE GOD. Nothing is stopping it. But the mind does not regard submission to and service of God as desirable. Rather, it turns from God, even when the gospel is presented. It turns away because it does not want God to be sovereign over it. It does not consider the righteousness of God to be the way to personal fulfillment or happiness. It does not want its sinfulness exposed. The mind is wrong in its judgments, of course. The way it chooses is actually the way of alienation and misery, the end of which is death. But human beings think that sin is best. Therefore, unless God changes the way we are---which He does by the miracle of the new birth---our minds always tell us to turn from God.:godisgood:

Thank you for sharing all that however I have something greater then knowing you or where you came from and that is the word of God. No one gets saved without faith, no one! So I am glad that you were finally found of the Lord but your salvation is no different then anyone else. It takes repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ or there is no salvation.
This kind of thing is why the church is in so much trouble today. Each person has their own beliefs because of personal experiences that disagree with scripture so each one thinks they have some special way to God. God has one way to Him and He is not going to change it and it takes repentance and faith to be saved (born again). There is no exceptions. By the way I came from the same background if not worse and it is the same for all. So like I said you did not get saved when you think you did if you think you got saved without faith.

 

[MB]

Thank you for sharing all that however I have something greater then your knowing you or where you came from and that is the word of God. No one gets saved without faith, no one! So I am glad that you were finally found of the Lord but your salvation is no different then anyone else. It takes repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ or there is no salvation.
This kind of thing is why the church is in so much trouble today. Each person has their own beliefs because of personal experiences that disagree with scripture so each one thinks they have some special way to God. God has one way to Him and He is not going to change it and it takes repentance and faith to be saved (born again). There is no exceptions. By the way I came from the same background if not worse and it is the same for all. So like I said you did not get saved when you think you did if you think you got saved without faith.

After our last exchange I wondered if we would ever agree on anything. Yet this I can agree with. With out faith no one is saved.
MB