Was Slavery So Bad?

[post-it]

Originally posted by tiggertoddy:
Hey, homosexuality is a sin. Heard that yet? read your Bible, and stop condoning the sickening, CHOSEN behaviour of perverts!

[/QB]

I didn't have to wait too long from my last post to see the word pervert applied, this is how the average parent of a gay or lesbian child see's their own flesh and blood, they are brainwashed to dispise them, who could love a pervert, except a pervert?

Presure on homosexual parents is incredible. It most often is a relationship ending situation, thanks to the Church stand. No other sin is seen in this light, they almost welcome the drug abuser with open arms, the wife beater, the drunk, the porno freak. Yes, a parent can be proud when their son, suffers from these sins, but not that one sick, perverted, twisted, most horrible of all... a person who loves other people. No parent wants that stigma in church.

 

[tiggertoddy]

Mr. Post-It: "Justified and a few others... with the exception of Literacy and rape, this is how most fundy Baptists treat and look upon homosexuals, so I guess I see where slavery is not really that bad in the eye of some fundy's."

Hey, you! Homosexuality is a SIN! IT IS WRONG! IT IS UNNATURAL! IT IS A CHOICE! IT IS A DISGUSTING, PUTRID, FILTHY, AND BLASPHEMOUS LIFESTYLE THAT IS A HORRENDOUS SLAP IN THE FACE TO GOD! Please notice I focused on the LIFESTYLE, and not the person! Love the sinner, HATE THE SIN! Obviously, it is WRONG to beat, kill, and de-moralize any human being. REAL Christians know this, and REAL Christians confront the sin, and in a CIVIL manner befitting a TRUE believer of Jesus Christ, rebuke the sinner so that he or she will know that the choice they made is a DESTRUCTIVE choice. We are called to look after one another. But, when we turn a blind eye to the SIN, and the person comitting it, we place a stumbling block before our fellow human beings. God commands us NOT to place stumbling blocks before our bretheren & sisters in Christ, we are to remove them! If we, as Christians, allow our brothers & sisters in Christ to fall to thier knees in front of Satan, we sin also! Did we conveiniently forget that scripture from God's Word? God's Word is sufficient for reproof, rebuke, and healing of sin. for us to continue to condone sins such as homosexuality is anathema! Wake up, PEOPLE! Has God changed since He created us? Has God "felt sorry" for our condition of carnality that He compromised HIS OWN WORD, for the sake of our comfort? Nay, I say. According to GOD, "I am the Alpha, and the Omega; the First and the last; I will not change". (paraphrase)

Since God has never, and will NEVER, change, doesn't that also mean that HIS VIEW ON SIN remains the same today as it did yesterday? DOES GOD NEED TO CHANGE, JUST BECAUSE WE WANT TO SIN MORE AND MORE? Get a grip, people! WE CHANGE, NOT GOD! If GOD says it is a sin, IT REMAINS A SIN! If God says don't do it or think it, then WE ARE TBEY GOD! Since GOD is the first and FINAL authority on EVERYTHING, and since HE created us, we OWE IT TO HIM to OBEY what He tells us to do.

Compromising, because of peer or societal pressure to do so, is nothing short of BLASPHEMY TO GOD! If GOD SAYS JUMP, WE ASK "how high?"! By the by, what I have typed is NOT legalism, it comes STRAIGHT FROM GOD'S WORD! Any genuine Christian will tell you this is true. If I can understand God's Word (and I am NOT PERFECT) through the Holy Spirit's guidance and interpretation, then it should be easy for anyone who loves and reveres Jesus Christ! So, if repeating what I have read in God's Word about SIN is legalism, then, I guess I get to go to Hell when I die. If you think what I have typed is legalism, then Jesus never really said, IN HIS OWN WORDS, to come out from the world, and be ye separate. If this is legalism, then JESUS DIED FOR NOTHING! If this is legalism, the GOD IS A LIAR! If this is legalism, then GOD DOESN"T EXIST!

But, of course, the capitalized statements above are false, just like the weak argument posted by you, Mr. Post-It, amongst others on this BBS. You really need to re-read God's Word, and, this time, ask the Holy Spirit to interpret it, instead of leaning on your OWN understanding. That's funny, because I thought JESUS CHRIST told us not to lean on our OWN understanding of things, but to rely, instead, on GOD'S understanding and interpretation. God's interpretation of sin is this: It is WRONG, and an affront to God. THAT is GOD'S definition of SIN, NOT mine. Pay careful attention to what GOD says, and shun what the WORLD says. God is permanent, the world is but a blip in GOD'S time.

 

[tiggertoddy]

Originally posted by post-it:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tiggertoddy:
Hey, homosexuality is a sin. Heard that yet? read your Bible, and stop condoning the sickening, CHOSEN behaviour of perverts!

I didn't have to wait too long from my last post to see the word pervert applied, this is how the average parent of a gay or lesbian child see's their own flesh and blood, they are brainwashed to dispise them, who could love a pervert, except a pervert?

Presure on homosexual parents is incredible. It most often is a relationship ending situation, thanks to the Church stand. No other sin is seen in this light, they almost welcome the drug abuser with open arms, the wife beater, the drunk, the porno freak. Yes, a parent can be proud when their son, suffers from these sins, but not that one sick, perverted, twisted, most horrible of all... a person who loves other people. No parent wants that stigma in church.[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]True love never sat idly by and watched another destroy themselves, did they? Or, do you trust Dr. Phil, more than Jesus Christ? If Jesus Christ doesn't love us, then explain why He disciplines His children when they are doing something wrong! If sin isn't wrong, then explain why GOD says it is wrong? If Jesus Christ didn't love us, then explain why He was crucified!

If God's Word has been revised, BY GOD, to accomodate our sins, then, explain why my Bible isn't full of revisions of the lists of sins? If God doesn't hate SIN, why will He punish the wicked? If God has changed His mind about certain sins, then why would anyone be in hell? If God has changed His mind on sin, why does hell exist? Is it a tourist trap? A museum? An amusement park?

If God has changed His definition of sin, why write the Bible? You would think that God would keep His Word when he stated that He will never change. He has never changed and never will! A lackadaisical attitude or condoning of ANY sin, great or small, is reprehensible in God's eyes. I don't feel sorry for someone who REPEATEDLY commits the same sin, over and over again without repentance. Would you love me if I injured you out of hatred, over and over again, and said that God doesn't care what happens? You'd laugh me out of town! But, again, I say this: True love does not stand idly by and do nothing while destruction occurs. TRUE LOVE FOR ANOTHER HUMAN BEING GETS INVOLVED AND WARNS THEM, AND BEGS THEM TO STOP DESTROYING THEMSELVES! iF YOU AND i WERE AT A CROSSWALK, AND YOU CROSSED WHILE A CAR WAS BEARING DOWN ON YOU, WOULD IT BE LOVE FOR YOU IF I JUST STOOD THERE AND WATCHED YOU GET CRUSHED? NO! True love would scream, shout, or do SOMETHING to alert you to the possible destruction of your life! While it is HORRIBLE that gay people are mistreated or attacked, the simple fact is this: homosexuality is a stumbling block, and if no civil acting Christian is willing to point out the destruction, then Jesus died for nothing. Before you get all hoity-toity, lemme tell you this: I hate abortion, but I don't go and bomb clinics or dehumanize the PERSON; I hate homosexuality, but I DON'T HATE THE PERSON! Notice I focus on the LIFESTYLE, and condemn the LIFESTYLE, but I don't hate the PERSON who makes the CHOICE to be gay. I can't change them, BUT, I CAN warn them of destruction to come, as a result of sinning. THAT is the type of JUDGMENT we Christians are ALLOWED to exercise. We are to judge the SIN, but NOT the HEART of the sinner. Simply pointing out that homosexuality is a sin IS NOT JUDGING THE HEART OF A SINNER. Calling a homosexual a horrible person, a loser, et al, IS judging the heart, even if it is PLAINLY obvious that the person is sick. If I said that God despised men who wear t-shirts, and that you were wrong and sick for wearing t-shirts, I'd be judging your heart. But, if you are stealing something, and I merely point out to you that stealing is wrong, I am judging the sin. God says homosexuality is a sin, as well as stealing or lying. If I point out the sin to you, merely POINTING IT OUT IS NOT JUDGING ONE'S HEART, and as long as I leave it at that, I am not judging you as a person. Sin is to be exposed, otherwise, how would the innocent know to avoid it?

 

[tiggertoddy]

Originally posted by Mr. Curtis:
WHAAAT ?!!??!! Who are you yelling at ? You know we are on the same side, don't you ?

Sorry. I obviously misunderstood the CONTEXT of your message. I apologize. Please forgive me for offending you. (No saracasm here.)

 

[Bro. Curtis]

No problem!!! I do appreciate your spirit.

 

[tiggertoddy]

Originally posted by Mr. Curtis:
No problem!!! I do appreciate your spirit.

You Do?!?????!?!?!?! (that was a little sarcasm, a sin that I still need to work on, eh?)

 

[HankD]

post-it says,

a person who loves other people. No parent wants that stigma in church.

"a person that loves other people"?
Do you mean "loves" in the context of a sexual same-sex relationship?

If so, this "love" is not what the Scripture calls it.

Romans 1
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

I agree that the homosexual needs the love and forgiveness of God and man.

However: "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

HankD

 

[LadyEagle]

Is my browser not working? I thought this thread was about slavery, not the umpteenth thread on homosexuality! (Post-it, really. )

Thomas Jefferson seemed to be a good slave owner. Look at all his descendants!

Didn't Paul write something about if you were a slave to not seek to be free? Thought I read that somewhere.

 

[Daniel David]

Is it amazing that Jesus and Paul never tried to overthrow the idea of slavery?

Come on liberals, interpret the Bible according to Jesus and let me know where I went wrong.

Out like the idea of interpreting Scripture by the criterion of Jesus.

 

[suzanne]

Originally posted by Justified:
What was so bad, or good about slavery?

Are you speaking of the history slavery in general regardless of country and culture or slavery in the U.S.? Seems like an apples and oranges comparison.
Big topic.

suzanne

 

[Abiyah]

So, now, we who are against American slavery
are (shudder) considered liberals? I don't get
it! I seriously Don't Get It!

Americann slavery was as unbiblical as it could
get--evil, insidious, cruel, the selling of people,
ripping apart families, beating people, belittling
many much wiser than their "owners" simply
because they had the governmental right. This is
CRAZY!

I would really like to know: whom do you wish
enslaved? Those of you who believe American
slavery to be so right, whom would you enslave?

[ September 09, 2002, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]

 

[Maverick]

Interestingly, we are a nation founded on the premise that all men are created equal and have certain unalienable rights yet the man who penned that had slaves as did many folks in the North and the South. Remember the ships were harbored in MASS not MISS. MASS started with Indians and went on to Africans. Hence slavery was bad because it
contradicted our basic premises as well as the Christian call to make men free in Christ. I
would love to go back and talk to the preachers in those days when it first got started and
figure out their heads on this because it does boggle me.

However, slavery was in Scripture and was sometimes more what we would call
indentured servitude, but at times it was like our slavery was and of course captured
peoples became servants/slaves. There was the year of jubilee where at least the
indentured servants were set free though they could stay with their master. In a sense it
was little different than our own employer/employee system except that in many cases the
slave was beter cared for than an employee and was cared for for all his life not until
Enron folded or just before he could get a retirement check.

Ironically, the slave owner that was used to base the book Uncle Tom's Cabin was a Northerner who was continually chastised by his Southern neighbors for abuse of his
slaves. Interviews of former slaves by folks in the WPA in the 30's paint a different picture
than what is portrayed today. It was quite likely more like "Song of the South" (by the way
banned in the US) than Simon Legree. One Arkansas lady said life was just fine until them
ruffians from up North came in. It is hard to understand a way of life so different than our
own or to see it from their eyes. In another article that I posted some slaves who took the
train North came back because it was not all it was reported to be up there.

Slavery has been with man from early days and is still practiced today. No culture is guiltless. We forget that the folks brought here were already slaves to their own
countrymen. Even on the worse plantation I would venture to say that life was better for
them here than as a slave in Africa.

Also, remember Joseph? Man meant it for evil but God meant it for good. Many of those folks became Christians and went to Heaven instead of a pagan's Hell. Would there have
been a George Washington Carver or E. V Hill or Tony Evans if there had not been slavery? Would they have even been born and what life would they have had in Africa and where would they have gone when they died? When we get to Heaven we may find out.

No, I do not condone slavery and I do not understand how it came about in this country, but it did and we need to worry about present slavery and not past slavery and to
consider that good came out of a bad thing by the grace of God. One Black man wrote a
book called, "Out of America" saying that he was glad his ancestors got here by whatever
means because he has seen the quality of life in modern Africa. The poorest descendent of
a slave here has it far better than his counterparts in Africa.

The four biggest tragedies of American slavery are.

1. That the slave traders were so cruel to pack them so tightly in the ships that many died on the way over. (Note again, they were run by Northerners).

2. That familes were broken up and that a people who should have found Christ by other means had to find it as slaves.

3. That a war is blamed for something that all honest researchers admit was on it's way out and would have been done in ten years or less even if there had been no war thus
clouding the real issues and the atrocities of the victor leaving bitterness until this day. (I
just a History channel on American Korean war crimes at No Gun Ri that are just coming to light. One day maybe the truth about Northern war and post-war crimes may come to light as well
and healing can begin.)

4. That the South gets the entire blame for something that the entire country was guilty of even though the exalted EP only freed slaves in the South not in the North and Abe did not want any Blacks in the territories for fear of blood mixing.

Slavery was a blight on this country, this whole country and now it is long past and what else can we say about it?

As to homsexuals, a lady in our church had a son dying from aids and I went and ministered to him. He openly repented of his sin, but his lover did not and I tried to comfort him as best I could as well. Was I revulsed by the visitors who came in and kissed each other? Yep, but I ignored that and stuck to my ministry. Had they asked what the Bible said about their lifestyle I would have done so boldy, but would not have said nasty things like I have heard from some pulpits or even I have made in the past. Homosexuals can be saved and jumping up and down on Sunday eagerly awaiting the day the queers get theirs is not going to do it. They need mercy just like we did. Do I even comprehend the lifestyle? Not! But then all sin is insanity and we are all insane in varying degrees.

 

[Abiyah]

I am personally unaware of any posts blaming
the South completely for slavery, but I never
hear, except from the South, about the "good
old days," indicating slavery days. Fortunately,
this term has also not been used here in regard
to slavery, of which I am aware. However, there
certainly are plenty here who cannnot see how
wrong, how ugly slavery was/is!

But what has this subject to do with homosexuality?

[ September 09, 2002, 10:32 AM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]

 

[Alliswell]

I haven't seen any post mentioning Joseph yet.

He was sold into cruel slavery by his own brothers, just as the Africans were by their own tribal chiefs.

He was mistreated and cast into prison for something he didn't do, just like so many African Americans.

God blessed him and gave him a better life than he ever had in the Old Country, just like so many African Americans today.

When the time came to settle scores, Joseph forgave those who sinned against him!

He told them, "You meant it for evil but God meant it for GOOD!

It is What Jesus Would Do even today.

Shalom

Alli

 

[Johnv]

A benevolent slaveowner was still a slaveowner. I don't necesserily condemn them for living in a time when it was allowed. I do, however, condemn the insitutional practice of it.

When it comes to whether or not a slave was better off as a slave under a benevolent master, or as a free man in a bigoted society, I would refer to Milton: it would be better to rule in hell than serve in heaven.

 

[Mike McK]

One brief digression:

"Song of the South" is not "banned" in the U.S.

It's just not marketed here by Disney. Nevertheless, it's pretty easy to get.

My mother collects Disney things and I got here a copy of the movie on video.

Sorry. Please continue.

Mike

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by HankD:
[QB]post-it says,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />a person who loves other people. No parent wants that stigma in church.

"a person that loves other people"?
Do you mean "loves" in the context of a sexual same-sex relationship?

If so, this "love" is not what the Scripture calls it.

Romans 1
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

</font>[/QUOTE]Hank, we can't use verses out of context. So let's repair the damage you have done.

Your verse starts out with "for this reason". Well what reason did God turn people over to these acts? Back up to verse 21 and we find out the real people that he is talking about.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

It appears to be atheists and other god worshippers. In the least it is people who never glorified God nor thanked him. Later they are called God-haters.

The act of homosexuality has nothing to do with this sin in the context I used it in. You can't read this chapter with any understanding that it could be talking about a Saved individual homosexual or heterosexual.

The sins he turned them over to was sex outside of marriage and sex between themselves out side of marriage... all sin when done in this way. Not sin when done the marriage way.

And finally, it you still refuse to beleive what is written in scripture, consider this. Paul equates homosexual acts with gossip, arrogance, envy, or disobeying your parents. Yet, parents of the homosexual, will stop the relationship when this one sin is found out. While they go back to gossiping about some other member's child who is gay.

[ September 09, 2002, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: post-it ]

 

[Abiyah]

I continue to wonder: whom do the proponents of
slavery wish to enslave?

 

[post-it]

I have heard the argument that child labor in 3rd world countries are about the same thing. the argument claims that the children working bring in money for the family to live. That is the price they must pay to eat and have a home. The US started out this way also. The country is built on pure manpower. Once the economy is going and jobs improve along with education etc. Life and making a living, gets easier.

The argument supports that there is a place at some point in the creation of a Country for Slave Labor. It is something that has been with us since the dawn of time. We have slaves right here in the USA right now working in factories. They are kept locked up at night in wharehouses. Some of the clothing you wear could have come from these places. Ever wonder where Flea Market and Street vendors get the New Clothing they sell?

Its the market, supply and demand that creates slavery. It's not the people who run it, not the slaves themselves, and not the rich, it's the general public who demands it.

Better prices, lower cost, more production.

Of course, it doesn't make it right, and it's not right because "some" people treat their slaves nicely.

 

[onevoice]

Many in the united states are similarly slaves.
[*]Slaves to the credit cards and car payments
[*]Offspring of a debtor who must pay off the debts
[*]Thieves who owe or are paying restitution
[*]Only they must pay to the last farthing, thus
remaining in slavery past seven years.[/QB]

Good point!! The majority of our nation is consumed by slavery to life itself. We have forgotten our purpose in life. We complain when we are asked to stay at church more than an hour a week because we miss ballgames, we can't go soulwinning on Thursday night because we might miss CSI on the tube, and we can't give our money to help the cause of Christ because we have to pay for our new car.

Sorry. . been a few weeks since I preached. hehe