Was That the Last Brickyard?

And other drivers held other viewpoints, just as drivers and chiefs today have been complaining about the tire quality for some time (of course, Stewart being the most vocal). At the end of the day, it's the quality of the product, not the choice of product, that is the problem.

Re: Bodine, so if the drivers disagree with you, that makes them an idiot? :smilewinkgrin: Besides, he's too busy doing bobsledding

 

That's the rub right there. I agree that competition usually makes a product better, but, in this case, the definition of "better" changes. With one manufacturer, a better tire is one that doesn't fail. Add a 2nd manufacturer and building a better tire is one that beats their competition, and safety isn't the #1 concern anymore.

How long have you been a fan of Nascar, Tom? My guess is somewhere around 1995 and that you didn't follow it during the tire war years, because I find it hard to believe that anybody who followed the sport during the tire war years would want to go back and try them again. I might be wrong about this, but it seems like what I've presented in this thread has been dismissed out of hand as some crazy ramblings from somebody who doesn't really understand how things work. That's what I find frustrating.

Bodine's just an idiot. :smilewinkgrin:

I don't believe for a second that there was a driver in 88 and 89 who liked the tire war. The only driver who would have liked the tire war in 1994 was Geoff Bodine, because he won 3 races driving Hoosier tires. See above. Ask Ernie Irvan what he thinks of the 1994 tire war.

Tire War = Bad Thing

 

I don't believe this is de facto, so we'll agree to disagree. If the tire isn't safe, it isn't going to be used, and thus the performance really doesn't matter, does it? Part of performance is safety. So I can't imagine any tire mfg saying "let's not make a safe tire so we can beat a competitor" knowing full well that competitor will make a safe tire and beat that self-same competitor.

My first favorite driver was Cale Yarborough, if that tells you anything I also saw Alan Kulwicki the day before he died. So that should predate me to your referenced date

Again, I'm not saying a "tire war" (perjorative phrase) is a panacea. I just believe that what is happening now isn't working, and NASCAR should be willing to be open to more than one possible solution so that we keep safe, quality tires on the cars.

Yep, you're wrong I'm not dismissing anything. If anything, you're dismissing any opinion different than yours. I'm saying your opinion could be right, or it could be wrong.

Drivers liked the choice. The crews liked the choice. I've referenced indirectly the one who recently joined Tony in saying there should be an alternative or a choice. If these drivers didn't like the competition, why did they pick alternative choices? I don't recall seeing a gun pointed at anyone's head or any children kidnapped by Hoosier or Goodyear alike, forcing a driver/team to run their particular tires.

See above.

 

Prove it. I don't believe it for one second.

At the 2nd Pocono race in 1994, the Hoosier tires were better. Every driver running Goodyear went into that race knowing they weren't going to win. Why didn't they pick the better tire that day? Contracts. They were contractually obligated to drive on Goodyear tires.

#1, Nascar isn't going to do anything anytime soon because they're under contract with Goodyear through 2012. #2, I'm completely Ok with replacing Goodyear. #3, I'm not Ok with adding a 2nd tire manufacturer to the series.

 

I don't have the quotes at my fingertips from 14+ years ago, but obviously if teams chose one tire over another, they must've preferred that tire.

No one said Tony was around for the tire war. I'm just saying Tony is one voice this year alone (not the only one) who either believes Goodyear needs to improve its product or NASCAR needs to change its approach to tire supplier(s).

This is all a non-sequitur. No team was forced into a tire contract against their will. The teams chose their tires and signed their contracts. The teams made the choice. If you're arguing that teams once under contract had provisions preventing them from testing other tires...well, YEAH! Of course. Happens all the time in business. This is a red herring in the discussion. College teams can't change jersey mfgs in the middle of a season, either. Again, this isn't germane to the discussion.

What does this have to do with anything? Not germane at all.

Well, if the teams didn't like the choice, it seems odd they weren't unanimous in their choice of tires.

And? They made their choice at the beginning of the year. That's a facet of the contract and in no way demans the value of a choice. Bit of a non-sequitur.

I wasn't aware it was that long of a contract. Maybe NASCAR and Goodyear can get a better product on the track.

I am, only if the product is better and safer.

CCROB is officially on record in favor of the tire monopoly :thumbs: :laugh:

 

First, I dont give much creedance to the perjorative "tire war" phraseology.
Second, point me to this archive you mention, please. Thanks.
Third, we keep confusing opinion with fact here. Opinions can be right or wrong. Facts can't. We're discussing opinions here. Opinions can be supported with facts, but there has to be a tacit link between the two. Otherwise, we're just talking opinions.

You just contradicted yourself. You say teams had no choice, but then you say teams "stuck" with Goodyear out of loyalty and a belief that Hoosier could not compete with Goodyear. That's a choice.
Not only do you contradict yourself, you implicitly make my point.

Bottom line Swaim, if you believe having tire competition or a reexamination of the Goodyear contract is a bad thing, so be it. You are entitled to your opinion. But don't castigate me for having an opinion, too, just because it's different from yours :thumbs: I just want a good, safe tire for NASCAR, be it from one mfg or twelve. That's my opinion. I would hope you would agree.

And I'm looking forward to putting this thing to bed. We haven't plowed new ground in days. Watkins Glen is coming up, and I'm looking forward to it. Me and the rest of the 26 NASCAR fans that like road races :laugh:

 

So, what do we do around here with statements that are made that aren't backed up? We throw them out as non-factual statements.

If you're not willing to accept my word, or swaim's word, that a tire war isn't a good idea, how about Jeff Burton's or Robin Pemberton's word?

http://www.wral.com/sports/nascar/story/3317719/

Here's another article where we find the following.

Non-sequitur.

Aren't you the one saying that drivers and teams liked the tire war? Thus, isn't it incumbent on you to provide the quotes that prove this?

What's so funny about this? If it means I don't want to see a tire war, then, yes, I'm already on record about this. If it means that I want Goodyear to the sole supplier in perpetuity, I'm already on record as saying that I'm fine with Goodyear being replaced. I don't know what the big deal is about saying that.

 

Interesting that you bring that up. Kinda goes to the whole point about whether or not the tire competition has been unfairly sullied for all that ills NASCAR or not. I've never praised it as much as you might assume (just read my posts), but I just never have followed the (lack of) logic that does blame tire competition for all that ills NASCAR.

I don't consider it an argument. But you're 100% right. Let anyone insult us who appreciate NASCAR NOW, now that we can throw Latin phrases around!!! :laugh:

I'm not trying to make factual statements. I merely brought up Tony Stewart's opinion this year about the faulty tires and the Dave Hooker show and the interviewees (sorry my memory fails me, which I freely admitted).

See, here's why the discussion won't die. I won't accept your opinion and what I believe is logical fallacy on the part of some. I also won't accept the premise that opening the tire competition back up, be it through multiple mfgs or through a re-examination of the contract, is a bad thing. And for some reason I wear the black hat for thinking this way even though I'm not alone (I provided DW, Larry, etc. earlier who agreed). Jeff Burton and Robin Pemberton are entitled to their opinion. You and Swaim are, too. But so am I. Why does this bother you :laugh:

Re: "tire war." I think you confuse what non-sequitur means. I'm not taking back mine and Swaim's pride in Latin and logic on behalf of the NASCAR nation! :laugh:

I said some did appeal for a change in status quo, and I've alluded to their comments earlier. Never did I claim anyone liked a tire war. I said teams must've liked the choice in tires and there are clear voices against Goodyear's workmanship which is drawing much (but not all) of the blame.
Just two voices:
http://msn.foxsports.com/nascar/story/8395850/Goodyear-has-one-year-to-get-it-right
http://msn.foxsports.com/nascar/story/8396432/DW:-What-did-I-learn-from-Indy?
DW in particular says he's not in favor of a "tire war" but his flaming of Goodyear and NASCAR for their failure (he flat out says Goodyear cannot build a tire for COT) was to my broader point.

I was having some fun with you. I'm light hearted about all this. Of course, I don't want Goodyear to be the sole supplier in perpetuity if they continue to make inadequate tires. Something has to give.

Wonder what Brett Favre thinks about all this? :laugh:

 

I agree with almost everything you posted. As I summed up earlier:

- Goodyear and/or NASCAR let us down at Indy. Both share some blame.
- NASCAR should take a look at its tire mfg policy and/or engineering policy re: COT and/or the tires. (Ricky Craven has suggested both).
- Multiple tire mfgs does not equate with evil. F1 hasn't seen Armagaeddon yet. :laugh: Yet, it's not Utopia, either. NASCAR won't allow that :laugh:
- NASCAR should stop being reactive and start being proactive in all areas.

FWIW..I just read where Jeff Burton has had to back off some potentially alarming comments about Goodyear tires and how Goodyear claims to be doing "what's in the best interests financially of Goodyear" http://sports.yahoo.com/nascar/blog...on-waves-the-flag-on-tires-a?urn=nascar,75213

Sorry...safety comes first. This is a bane that needs a solution quick.

 

BTW, I think the biggest problem NASCAR had at Indy instead of paving was the relative lack of testing at Indy. DW said he'dve stayed at IMS til they got it right. Problem is, they'd probably STILL be there.

 

nevermind.

 

I'm curious as to your thoughts.

 

Nah, wouldn't add anything to the thread.