Was the Kingdom of Heaven Really at Hand When Jesus Came

[JD731]

Did Jesus choose his officers of his kingdom after the model of Moses in the wilderness, twelve heads of Israel and 70 appointed elders?

Mt 4:17 From that time (the time he began to dwell in Capernaum of Galilee) Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

The answer to the question should be a yes or a no.

My answer is yes. A solid yes.

 

[JonC]

No.

 

[JD731]

No.

Thanks for the reply. One no answer.

 

[JD731]

John the Baptist preached the kingdom of heaven is at hand before Jesus preached it.

Mt 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

 

[percho]

I wonder in what manner, it was not at hand, before it was said, it is at hand? Taking under consideration this is said about thirty years after the birth of Christ.

 

[JD731]

I wonder in what manner, it was not at hand, before it was said, it is at hand? Taking under consideration this is said about thirty years after the birth of Christ.

Thanks percho, I take that answer as a, no. I do have the answer to your question. It is "timing."

"Ga 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,"
Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us (Hebrews) by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; (aions = ages)
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world (kosmos): but now once in the end of the world (aion = age) hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

BUT, the end of one thing can also be the beginning of another;

Mr 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; (at his baptism) 2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
This is when he first appeared to his people in the capacity of Messiah.

Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

God bless your understanding in these things.

 

[kyredneck]

Was the Kingdom of Heaven Really at Hand When Jesus Came

Did Jesus choose his officers of his kingdom after the model of Moses in the wilderness, twelve heads of Israel and 70 appointed elders?

No.

...to which question?

 

[JonC]

...to which question?

To the second question.

I believe the OT foreshadowed what was to come instead of what came being modeled off of the OT.

 

[Van]

Did Jesus choose his officers of his kingdom after the model of Moses in the wilderness, twelve heads of Israel and 70 appointed elders? SNIP

Numbers 11:16 (NASB)
The LORD therefore said to Moses, “Gather for Me seventy men from the elders of Israel, whom you know to be the elders of the people and their officers, and bring them to the tent of meeting, and have them take their stand there with you.

1) From this verse, it is not clear to me whether the 70 included both Elders and Officers or 70 Elders and additionally their officers.

2) From Exodus 24:1 and 9, 70 Elders are in view.

3) From Numbers 11:16, 24 and 25, 70 Elders are in view.

4) From Ezekiel 8:11, 70 Elders are in view.

Another issue concerns these "officers." One source indicated they were subordinates of the Elders, perhaps scribes, but in any event, they passed along the rules and judgements of higher authority to the people.

Yet another issue is whether there is any difference between "the kingdom of heaven" and "the kingdom of God?" I say there is absolutely no difference.

In summary, I agree with JonC that when actions or circumstances in the New Testament mirror the Old Testament, either some prophetic statement is being fulfilled or an Old Testament foreshadowing is being utilized. Thus my answer, too, is No.

 

[Van]

Matthew 21:31 (NIV)
“Which of the two did what his father wanted?” “The first,” they answered. Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you.

This verse answers the thread title question, people at the time of Christ, before His death, were in some manner "entering" the kingdom of God. I believe this refers to having their faith credited as righteousness, thus having gained access to God's grace.

One, btw, when Christ came might refer to his birth, but I believe the kingdom became "at hand" after Christ's public ministry began, and He proclaimed that reality.

 

[JD731]

To the second question.

I believe the OT foreshadowed what was to come instead of what came being modeled off of the OT.

Of course that belief has nothing to do with my question(s)

How would you explain the choosing and instructions of these officers. with later instructions that were opposite. If you can explain it maybe you can add time lines.

Mat 9:35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.
36 But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd.
37 Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few; (Harvest time is at the end of the season)
38 Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.
Mt 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Nothing here about the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. It is all about his kingdom. It is the "gospel" of his kingdom is at hand. That is the good news, the glad tidings.

14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
_____________________

Lu 10:1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
2 Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.

And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you:
9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
10 But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say,
11 Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.

Whatever anyone thinks one can be sure that this gospel was very important to God and Jesus Christ and there was great danger in rejecting it as a city.

Lu 10:7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.

_____________________________

Mt 16:20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

________________

Question: What happened between Acts 10 and Acts 16 that would reverse the instructions of Jesus to the twelve?
Question; Can you give the definitions of the two words in Mt 16:21 "from" and "began."

I am asking these questions because I think "no" is a bad answer to my question.

 

[JonC]

Of course that belief has nothing to do with my question(s)

Sorry. I meant to answer this question:

Did Jesus choose his officers of his kingdom after the model of Moses in the wilderness, twelve heads of Israel and 70 appointed elders?

My answer was "no".

The reason I believe that Jesus did not choose after the model of Moses is that I believe the OT foreshadowed what was to come instead of what came being modeled off of the OT.

Why 12? Dunno. Perhaps numerology.

 

[JD731]

...to which question?

Hi kyrn, here is a question for you. Can one have a kingdom without a king? Here is another one; was Jesus giving out good news, glad tidings because there is a coming kingdom or that it was at hand? Here is another one; would you say it was called the kingdom of heaven because heaven is where he came from and the Father in heaven sent him to rule for him? Why did he stop preaching the gospel of the kingdom sometime between Matt 10 and Matt 16?

 

[JD731]

Numbers 11:16 (NASB)
The LORD therefore said to Moses, “Gather for Me seventy men from the elders of Israel, whom you know to be the elders of the people and their officers, and bring them to the tent of meeting, and have them take their stand there with you.

1) From this verse, it is not clear to me whether the 70 included both Elders and Officers or 70 Elders and additionally their officers.

2) From Exodus 24:1 and 9, 70 Elders are in view.

3) From Numbers 11:16, 24 and 25, 70 Elders are in view.

4) From Ezekiel 8:11, 70 Elders are in view.

Another issue concerns these "officers." One source indicated they were subordinates of the Elders, perhaps scribes, but in any event, they passed along the rules and judgements of higher authority to the people.

Yet another issue is whether there is any difference between "the kingdom of heaven" and "the kingdom of God?" I say there is absolutely no difference.

In summary, I agree with JonC that when actions or circumstances in the New Testament mirror the Old Testament, either some prophetic statement is being fulfilled or an Old Testament foreshadowing is being utilized. Thus my answer, too, is No.

What do you think about this exchange?

MT 21:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Interesting sideline - in V23 it is the kingdom of heaven and in V24 it is the kingdom of God.

25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

Well, obviously the king is not sitting in his throne even now and therefore the 12 apostles are not sitting presently upon 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. Their bodies are still in the graves awaiting resurrection and glorification.

 

[JD731]

Sorry. I meant to answer this question:



My answer was "no".

The reason I believe that Jesus did not choose after the model of Moses is that I believe the OT foreshadowed what was to come instead of what came being modeled off of the OT.

Why 12? Dunno. Perhaps numerology.

Well, thank you JonC but I was hoping you would answer some of my other questions.

BTW, the number 12 is always associated with the perfect government of God and it was the reason Jesus could not establish his kingdom on earth. He just had 11 apostles when he died and rose again. The number 11 is the number God used for Israel falling short of God's government over them.

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

30 ¶ What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

If you are wondering about gentiles, their number is 13, overstepping the law, "transgressors" a word with 13 letters. And if you were wondering "not attained" has 11 letters. This Bible is inspired of God and is without fault.

Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

 

[JonC]

Well, thank you JonC but I was hoping you would answer some of my other questions.

BTW, the number 12 is always associated with the perfect government of God and it was the reason Jesus could not establish his kingdom on earth. He just had 11 apostles when he died and rose again. The number 11 is the number God used for Israel falling short of God's government over them.

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

30 ¶ What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

If you are wondering about gentiles, their number is 13, overstepping the law, "transgressors" a word with 13 letters. And if you were wondering "not attained" has 11 letters. This Bible is inspired of God and is without fault.

Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

I don't think missing one disciples prevented Jesus from establishing His kingdom on earth.

The "transgressors" were Jewish (they transgressed the Law). And the word doesn't have 13 letters (the English word does).

The readon I didn't say more is I really don't have more to say. Just reading.

 

[JD731]

I don't think missing one disciples prevented Jesus from establishing His kingdom on earth.

The "transgressors" were Jewish (they transgressed the Law). And the word doesn't have 13 letters (the English word does).

The readon I didn't say more is I really don't have more to say. Just reading.

Good deal, JonC but Jesus was not missing one disciple, he was missing one disciple who was an apostle. Big difference, He told his plans of having the 12 apostles sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. He was missing a king. Israel fell short and did not attain the kingdom. Barnabas would be commissioned as the 12th apostle but it would be around 42 AD in Acts 13 (would you believe it) the same time as Paul received his commission to be the apostle to the gentiles.

Ac 14:14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

If you and I believe the same things about God from our Bibles it would be a miracle at least as great as a resurrection from the dead. Our Bibles does not say the same things because they have different words. I could not ask you to do a word study or match numbers to doctrines because there is nothing awe inspiring to you about your Bible. Your Bible just has words that maybe are not as good as other Bibles. I do not say this to mock you but to give you my sentiments. My Bible is awe inspiring to me because of these things.

 

[JonC]

Good deal, JonC but Jesus was not missing one disciple, he was missing one disciple who was an apostle. Big difference, He told his plans of having the 12 apostles sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. He was missing a king. Israel fell short and did not attain the kingdom. Barnabas would be commissioned as the 12th apostle but it would be around 42 AD in Acts 13 (would you believe it) the same time as Paul received his commission to be the apostle to the gentiles.

Ac 14:14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

If you and I believe the same things about God from our Bibles it would be a miracle at least as great as a resurrection from the dead. Our Bibles does not say the same things because they have different words. I could not ask you to do a word study or match numbers to doctrines because there is nothing awe inspiring to you about your Bible. Your Bible just has words that maybe are not as good as other Bibles. I do not say this to mock you but to give you my sentiments. My Bible is awe inspiring to me because of these things.

If you have the Word of God then our Bibles communicate the same Word of God (even if you primarily use an English translation).

So don't worry about mocking me, as I don't take it that way at all.

I simply mean that "trangressors" having 13 letters is not important because that is simply the English word the translators chose.

My Bible has the words the English translators used (depending on which one of my bibles you are looking at).

But if you really have God's Word then your Bible says the same thing as mine, even if yours is a translation of mine.

 

[JonC]

Good deal, JonC but Jesus was not missing one disciple, he was missing one disciple who was an apostle. Big difference, He told his plans of having the 12 apostles sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. He was missing a king. Israel fell short and did not attain the kingdom. Barnabas would be commissioned as the 12th apostle but it would be around 42 AD in Acts 13 (would you believe it) the same time as Paul received his commission to be the apostle to the gentiles.

Ac 14:14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

If you and I believe the same things about God from our Bibles it would be a miracle at least as great as a resurrection from the dead. Our Bibles does not say the same things because they have different words. I could not ask you to do a word study or match numbers to doctrines because there is nothing awe inspiring to you about your Bible. Your Bible just has words that maybe are not as good as other Bibles. I do not say this to mock you but to give you my sentiments. My Bible is awe inspiring to me because of these things.

If you have the Word of God then our Bibles communicate the same Word of God (even if you primarily use an English translation).

So don't worry about mocking me, as I don't take it that way at all. God's Word transcends the translations of men.

I simply mean that "trangressors" having 13 letters is not important because that is simply the English word the translators chose.

My Bible has the words the English translators used (depending on which one of my bibles you are looking at).

But if you really have God's Word then your Bible says the same thing as mine, even if yours is a translation of mine.

That is awe inspiring, isn't it. God's Word is greater than translations. You can hold the KJV, NKJV, NASB, ESV, NIV...or an original language Bible and know - if you are a believer - that you hold God's Word in your hands.

Where the "Christian Pharisees" argue about which translation is the real Bible, Christians understand the nature of God's Word and stand in awe that His Word is not dependent on the translation choices of men.

 

[JD731]

JonC, Bible students cannot learn the same deep truths from Bibles with different words. But, please, I would like to stay on the subject of the kingdom of heaven is at hand Matthew 1 through 12 and a new planting/growing season took place in Matthew 13 and we learn later that it was Jerusalem, super hard ground with devils around, Judaea, hindered growth, Samaria with tares and thorns, and finally the gentiles world wide. Can't we now, some 2000 years later look back and see the whole growing season up to the harvest, which is right on us? God is not going to commend this end times group for being so ignorant of what he has shown us, do you think?

The 7 parables in Mt 13 foretells the entire age, beginning to end.