Was the Kingdom of Heaven Really at Hand When Jesus Came

[Van]

SNIP
Yes, the kingdom really was at hand until his own people and nation rejected him in Mt 12 and sentenced him to death, but it was not immediate. To enter his kingdom required a new birth that could only be accomplishde after he had made the blood atonement and rose from the dead.

1) Agreed the kingdom of God was "at hand" when Jesus entered His public ministry.

2) No, the spiritual kingdom of God remained at hand after the events of Matthew Chapter 12.

3) No, the spiritual kingdom of God's access was immediately at hand, before Christ died, in that believers aquired access by having their faith credited as righteousness.

4) Yes, spiritual entry into the kingdom could only be accomplished after Jesus physically died on the cross.

 

[CJP69]

Please understand that my comments in this post is not my attempt to try to correct you. My comments are an explanation as to why I disagree with you but I fully acknowledge that you have the right to believe what you will and that you have your reasons for doing so.

I think that a person who has the personality of the word of God and that he has a title, the word of the LORD, and that whether visible or invisible in his person when bringing the words to the prophet, every word from God to us comes through and from him. In the NT he has a name, "Jesus," meaning Jehovah is salvation, but does not mean that he is in any way lesser than Jehovah, but his function in our redemption plan surely is different. The word of the LORD in the OT scriptures and the 13 times he is called this in the NT is more that an unattached voice, or an impression of the mind, or some ethereal emanation, but it is actually a person with a name that came to the prophets and gave the word. He is the same person as the NT Jesus, but in the OT he has a name "Lord GOD."

It is also significant that this name and title is revealed to us at the same time, after 2 millennium had passed and the third begun that Isaac and his miraculous birth began to be center stage. And that he would be ministering to this people under this name and title for the next 2 Millennium, which would bring us to the beginning of the incarnation of Jesus Christ by his appearing as the anti type of Isaac in the stable in Bethlehem where he would be presented as Jehovah is salvation, Jesus. He did not bring salvation, he is salvation. His next name in his kingdom office will be Immanuel, which means "God with us."

The kingdom of heaven really was at hand when Jesus came but it did not come because at that time he was rejected by his people. It will come just as the word of the LORD has said.

What we are taught today in the modern church concerning the word of the LORD is not consistent with the ways of God that we learn from his interaction with men throughout history. To preach and teach that God has left us scrambling to figure out on our own what are his words makes no sense to me especially after I know that Israel was repeatedly judged as a people as to how they received and obeyed the word of the LORD that came to them through the prophet, who did not speak his own words. The English speaking Christians, who represent the majority of Christians around the world, have given us 150 variations of the words they claim are from God since 1901 when the first modern English Bible was published for America.

What difference does it make? There is no authority in the words any longer and it has caused logic and reason to be thrown away. Today, Christians have only a message at best and nothing can be proven by words in their Bibles. This thread proves it. The words about the kingdom are not believed or different Bibles teach different words and there is no unity in doctrine.

I see the Satanic signature all over this modern Bible philosophy.

That is just me. I do realize that most of you fellows are smarter than me and maybe I am dead wrong about this even while I think I am right about it. God's word has been reduced to a preference of words and no one has ever said on Baptist board that their choice of the message they choose has come by a matter of prayer to God. The modern church is being taught by the words of men, not by the words of God and for that reason the world is flying apart quickly and the visible church is splintered and weak and in apostasy and has little salt and light for the world.

Which words do you say are God's words then?

 

[JD731]

Which words do you say are God's words then?

I have no doubt what is the words of God. I have studied the KJV Bible for years and it has proven itself to me in many ways that it is completely trustworthy. I learned as a young man how important meditation on the word of God was to understand the deep things of God and to this day I meditate on the words I have read and the stories I am told from the scriptures. Often times for me it is the use of a single word that unlocks the meaning of a passage or a doctrine and I receive light from it.

However, let me quickly say that you are not a second class Christian if you do not agree with me and if you like ten or twelve translations and read them daily. The only effect it will have on me is that there will be places in the scriptures where we will not agree. We will not be linked in our minds or by what we are reading to the same cross references and ideas. If you have been saved by believing the gospel of Jesus Christ you will never be any less saved and you are equal with me as a son of God through the new birth. God has not asked you or me to understand and believe the doctrine of the kingdom to be saved. Our salvation is not dependent on that doctrine even as important as it is. If you fail to believe the truth about the kingdom or some other Bible doctrine because of your views on the scriptures, it will probably cause you to lose rewards but it certainly will not do any damage to your salvation.

I am not advocating one must believe the KJV to be saved. One must believe the gospel of Jesus Christ. I was saved when I was 14 years old in the Baptist church my family faithfully attended. I had heard the gospel of Jesus Christ all my life because it was faithfully preached in our church. I came to understand and to be persuaded and believe that I was a sinner in need of salvation and in my heart and to the best I could I asked Jesus Christ to save me, and he did. I believed then that Jesus Christ died for me and paid my sin debt and that he rose from the dead and the pardon he gave me was free and without cost. That is all I knew then but I have learned much since that day. I would still be saved if along the way I would have bought and studied from an NIV. I doubt that I would have been here speaking about the kingdom but I would still be as saved as ever.

But thank God for his faithfulness in his words.

 

[JD731]

1) Agreed the kingdom of God was "at hand" when Jesus entered His public ministry.

2) No, the spiritual kingdom of God remained at hand after the events of Matthew Chapter 12.

3) No, the spiritual kingdom of God's access was immediately at hand, before Christ died, in that believers aquired access by having their faith credited as righteousness.

4) Yes, spiritual entry into the kingdom could only be accomplished after Jesus physically died on the cross.

.....okay,........ I guess........

 

[percho]

Percho, Thanks for continuing to give thought on the subject of the thread.

Was the kingdom of heaven really at hand when Jesus came?

So your doctrine is that what is written about God's rule over the earth and heaven and men in the books of the OT scriptures have no relevance to us today, especially as they pertain to the kingdom that is coming? Are you thinking all those glorious promises of a perfect rule of righteousness of Jesus Christ over all the earth has been forgotten of God or that he did not really mean them? Do you teach that those promises in these everlasting covenants cannot ever come to pass because they have not yet come to pass? Do you think it is possible for God to establish his kingdom with two natures, a spiritual and a natural like he created Adam in the beginning, a body and a soul, and then breath his Spirit into him, making him into the image of God, a trinity?


I am thinking that maybe I should start a new thread and ask the question if you think Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and Moses and David will be resurrected from the dead. I am assuming that you do not All of these men have been mentioned in connection to covenant promises that involved a family and a nation and a land on earth. The promises for Abraham, Isaac, and David involved unconditional and everlasting covenants. This means that promises made to these men did not require they do anything to bring them to pass but that God who gave them the promises will bring them to pass. These promises do not depend upon the faithfulness of any of these men but entirely upon the faithfulness of God. who gave them. They are contingent upon God raising them from the dead.

The church of Jesus Christ has a gentile character and were not included in those natural promises to these OT men. We are a distinct entity from them and yet we are of them. The same Spirit is in both of us and will be throughout eternity. The church will dwell with God in the heavenlies but the kingdom is one in three and three in one, a trinity.

Can you not see any of this?

Actually I think you and I are closer to believing the the same which is the opposite of the above.

I believe Abraham, Isaac, Jacob/Israel, Moses and David will see and enter the kingdom of God. They will do so be resurrection from the dead.

I believe the good news of the kingdom was at hand because Jesus came to preach His death and His resurrection out of the dead.

The beginning of the church of God, Zion, which will birth the kingdom. I believe that can be seen in Isa 66:7,8
NKJV
“Before she was in labor, she gave birth;
Before her pain came,
She delivered a male child.

Jesus?
Acts 4:10,11 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

Who has heard such a thing?
Who has seen such things?
Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day?
Or shall a nation be born at once?
For as soon as Zion was in labor,
She gave birth to her children.

Luke 20:35,36 NKJV “But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; “nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.





Rom 8:15,23 YLT for ye did not receive a spirit of bondage again for fear, but ye did receive a spirit of adoption in which we cry, 'Abba -- Father.' And not only so, but also we ourselves, having the first-fruit of the Spirit, we also ourselves in ourselves do groan, adoption expecting -- the redemption of our body;
& V 11 YLT and if the Spirit of Him who did raise up Jesus out of the dead doth dwell in you, He who did raise up the Christ out of the dead shall quicken also your dying bodies, through His Spirit dwelling in you.

Acts 2:29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

By what Spirit are the dead bodies of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob/Israel, Moses and David going be quickened?


The Passover was the death of Jesus the Lamb of God that away the sin of the world.
The unleavened bread two days. I think but not sure, the two days have something to do with Num 19:11,12. keeping in mind Christ was dead three days. Would like your thoughts concerning that? There has to be a reason for there being two days relative to being unleavened. Christ bore our sins ie was unclean. Did regeneration being made alive [see 1 Cor 15:22,23 YLT so also in the Christ all shall be made alive, and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ] on the third day make him clean ie washing of regeneration?
The day of first fruit, first-fruit of the Spirit, Pentecost fifty days following the Sabbath following the Passover, the Spirit of adoption

I wonder on what day the day of adoption to whit, the redemption of the body, may fall? A day of holy convocation a day of rest?

 

[JD731]

I believe the good news of the kingdom was at hand because Jesus came to preach His death and His resurrection out of the dead.

Actually this is not true except as it pertained to his overall stated reason for his first coming, and that is stated clearly and plainly here:

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,


Reason and logic is the order between these verses, 45 and 46..

46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

More reason and logic:The gospel of Jesus Christ could not be preached before the death, burial, and resurrection, unless it pertained only to his coming to establish his government over the world.
because who in Israel would understand it and believe it?

49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

More reason and logic; They were not instructed to begin their preaching ministry immediately after he left but to wait for his promise from the Father, which we know as the indwelling Spirit that he must send after he has ascended. We are told that on the eve of his crucifixion.

John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Jn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.


20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Sometimes when I am reading the commentary I find myself wondering if some folk who comments have ever read the scriptures. And how do these folk decide to be called a Baptist? Is logic and reason and rules of grammar tossed aside when reading the scriptures, or if not reading, scanning the scriptures?

Jesus did not speak to his disciples about his death, burial, and resurrection until they were on the way to Jerusalem from Galilee where he would be crucified and none of them understood it or accepted it as they wondered out loud about what Jesus meant by saying it. Logic and reason determines that his disciples had not preached any gospel except the gospel of the kingdom. They had not preached the gospel of salvation through a crucified and risen Christ.

Try reading carefully to try to understand what is being said and to define terms.

 

[CJP69]

I have no doubt what is the words of God. I have studied the KJV Bible for years and it has proven itself to me in many ways that it is completely trustworthy.

Impossible.

I mean, that is literally an impossibility.

By the way, which King James version are you talking about?

I learned as a young man how important meditation on the word of God was to understand the deep things of God and to this day I meditate on the words I have read and the stories I am told from the scriptures. Often times for me it is the use of a single word that unlocks the meaning of a passage or a doctrine and I receive light from it.

However, let me quickly say that you are not a second class Christian if you do not agree with me and if you like ten or twelve translations and read them daily. The only effect it will have on me is that there will be places in the scriptures where we will not agree.

Care to try and name one?

I prefer the NKJV. Can you name even one single doctrine that is effected in any substantial way because of the use of the NKJV vs the KJV?

We will not be linked in our minds or by what we are reading to the same cross references and ideas. If you have been saved by believing the gospel of Jesus Christ you will never be any less saved and you are equal with me as a son of God through the new birth. God has not asked you or me to understand and believe the doctrine of the kingdom to be saved. Our salvation is not dependent on that doctrine even as important as it is. If you fail to believe the truth about the kingdom or some other Bible doctrine because of your views on the scriptures, it will probably cause you to lose rewards but it certainly will not do any damage to your salvation.

Indeed, there are several things that one must believe in order to be saved. They comprise what I refer to as the "Gospel Proper", meaning that they comprise those doctrines which comprise the barest minimum of what one must believe in order to be counted as one who has believed the gospel and is therefore saved. They are as follows....

• God exists and is the Creator of all things and He is perfect, holy, and just.
• We, having willfully done evil things and rebelled against God, who gave us life, deserve death.
• Because God loves us, He provided for Himself a propitiation (an atoning sacrifice) by becoming a man whom we call Jesus Christ.
• Jesus, being the Creator God Himself and therefore innocent of any sin, willingly bore the sins of the world and died on our behalf.
• Jesus rose from the dead.
• If you confess with you mouth, the Lord Jesus Christ (i.e. openly acknowledge your need of a savior and that He is that Savior (i.e. acknowledge the above stated truths)) and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED.

While I tried to be a concise as possible, I found that it made for easier reading and comprehension if I wrote it in such a way that several of the bullet point statements comprise more than one single doctrine within them. Otherwise, the list got rather long and was harder to follow the logic of them.

I am fully persuaded that a rejection of any one, or any part of one, of the above stated doctrines is a rejection of the gospel and is sufficient to prove that one is not saved.

I am not advocating one must believe the KJV to be saved. One must believe the gospel of Jesus Christ. I was saved when I was 14 years old in the Baptist church my family faithfully attended. I had heard the gospel of Jesus Christ all my life because it was faithfully preached in our church. I came to understand and to be persuaded and believe that I was a sinner in need of salvation and in my heart and to the best I could I asked Jesus Christ to save me, and he did. I believed then that Jesus Christ died for me and paid my sin debt and that he rose from the dead and the pardon he gave me was free and without cost. That is all I knew then but I have learned much since that day. I would still be saved if along the way I would have bought and studied from an NIV. I doubt that I would have been here speaking about the kingdom but I would still be as saved as ever.

But thank God for his faithfulness in his words.

We have no disagreement on this point, whatsoever. I do find it interesting, however, how often you make dogmatic statements and then, when ask to defend them, you starting basically contradicting what you had been dogmatic about. Have you noticed that you do that?

In short, believing that the King James is a superior English translation to any other English translation is not the same thing as believing that the King James is THE words of God. The later is orders of magnitude beyond the former.

I encourage you to read the following debate, not because it's in a debate, per se, but because I think that it will definitely give you information about the King James bible that you don't already know....

Is the King James Bible the Only Inspired Scripture on Earth Today? Battle Royale XIV

 

[JD731]

Impossible.

I mean, that is literally an impossibility.

Well,,,, okay.....

Care to try and name one?

I prefer the NKJV. Can you name even one single doctrine that is effected in any substantial way because of the use of the NKJV vs the KJV?

The doctrine of comparison. Jesus Christ says his words are spirit and they are life, Jn 6:63 I believe that. Paul says the spiritual man learns the deep things of God by comparing spiritual things with spiritual. There is not a single word, even in your Bibles, that instructs you to translate the scriptures, much less paraphrase them and in some instances make a joke out of them. The scriptures says in the same passage in 1 Cor 2, that "we have the mind of Christ." Our minds thinks thoughts and thoughts are conveyed in words. Jesus says the following about his words;

Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

That is all I will say about it here except that God the Father does not take the same view concerning his words as you. It is he who inspired these words;
1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

The man who had the authority to rebuke and to say these words was the man who had been given the authority, the apostle. The apostles spoke as if they were Christ.

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church:
25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

I advise reading the whole context and meditating on this great truth. I say again that the signature of Satan is all over this philosophy of continual printing of new Bibles and Paraphrases in the English language, IMO..

Indeed, there are several things that one must believe in order to be saved. They comprise what I refer to as the "Gospel Proper", meaning that they comprise those doctrines which comprise the barest minimum of what one must believe in order to be counted as one who has believed the gospel and is therefore saved. They are as follows....

• God exists and is the Creator of all things and He is perfect, holy, and just.
• We, having willfully done evil things and rebelled against God, who gave us life, deserve death.
• Because God loves us, He provided for Himself a propitiation (an atoning sacrifice) by becoming a man whom we call Jesus Christ.
• Jesus, being the Creator God Himself and therefore innocent of any sin, willingly bore the sins of the world and died on our behalf.
• Jesus rose from the dead.
• If you confess with you mouth, the Lord Jesus Christ (i.e. openly acknowledge your need of a savior and that He is that Savior (i.e. acknowledge the above stated truths)) and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED.

While I tried to be a concise as possible, I found that it made for easier reading and comprehension if I wrote it in such a way that several of the bullet point statements comprise more than one single doctrine within them. Otherwise, the list got rather long and was harder to follow the logic of them.

I am fully persuaded that a rejection of any one, or any part of one, of the above stated doctrines is a rejection of the gospel and is sufficient to prove that one is not saved.

There is a concise terminology of scripture that I think embodies the fundamentals of Christianity. It is this, "THE FAITH." This is a NT Christianity phrase not appearing in the OT or the gospels, but first appearing in Acts 3:16 at the beginning of Christianity. When he speaks of the faith he is speaking of the fundamentals of Christianity. These are things that are most surely believed among us. The phrase appears in 42 verses in the NT and I suggest that reading them will be a valuable use of time.

Now again, this is true of my Bible and it may or may not be true of yours. There is a numerical structure to the scriptures and #42 is a number that is associated with gentiles.

We have no disagreement on this point, whatsoever. I do find it interesting, however, how often you make dogmatic statements and then, when ask to defend them, you starting basically contradicting what you had been dogmatic about. Have you noticed that you do that?

In short, believing that the King James is a superior English translation to any other English translation is not the same thing as believing that the King James is THE words of God. The later is orders of magnitude beyond the former.

I encourage you to read the following debate, not because it's in a debate, per se, but because I think that it will definitely give you information about the King James bible that you don't already know....

Well, you did not provide any examples and I have not wavered on my beliefs. However, I have been as conciliatory as possible, not wanting to be offensive through my personality and presentation of the truth so we can keep this discussion going. I think I have some important things to say.

This is al I have to say on the KJV Bible and the translation issues here because this thread is about the kingdom, at hand.

 

[percho]

Actually this is not true except as it pertained to his overall stated reason for his first coming, and that is stated clearly and plainly here:

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,


Reason and logic is the order between these verses, 45 and 46..

46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

More reason and logic:The gospel of Jesus Christ could not be preached before the death, burial, and resurrection, unless it pertained only to his coming to establish his government over the world.
because who in Israel would understand it and believe it?

49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

More reason and logic; They were not instructed to begin their preaching ministry immediately after he left but to wait for his promise from the Father, which we know as the indwelling Spirit that he must send after he has ascended. We are told that on the eve of his crucifixion.

John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Jn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.


20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Sometimes when I am reading the commentary I find myself wondering if some folk who comments have ever read the scriptures. And how do these folk decide to be called a Baptist? Is logic and reason and rules of grammar tossed aside when reading the scriptures, or if not reading, scanning the scriptures?

Jesus did not speak to his disciples about his death, burial, and resurrection until they were on the way to Jerusalem from Galilee where he would be crucified and none of them understood it or accepted it as they wondered out loud about what Jesus meant by saying it. Logic and reason determines that his disciples had not preached any gospel except the gospel of the kingdom. They had not preached the gospel of salvation through a crucified and risen Christ.

Try reading carefully to try to understand what is being said and to define terms.

I agree that I did not word that very well and I agree with your post.

Let me ask; Can there be, the kingdom of God, outside of the resurrection of Jesus the Christ and those who are Christ's at his appearing?

Is the kingdom of God that Jesus introduced relative to the kingdom spoken of in Daniel 2:44?

 

[CJP69]

The doctrine of comparison.

Never heard of it.

Neither I nor ChatGPT could find any reference to "the doctrine of comparison" anywhere on the internet.

Jesus Christ says his words are spirit and they are life, Jn 6:63 I believe that. Paul says the spiritual man learns the deep things of God by comparing spiritual things with spiritual. There is not a single word, even in your Bibles, that instructs you to translate the scriptures, much less paraphrase them and in some instances make a joke out of them. The scriptures says in the same passage in 1 Cor 2, that "we have the mind of Christ." Our minds thinks thoughts and thoughts are conveyed in words. Jesus says the following about his words;

Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

That is all I will say about it here except that God the Father does not take the same view concerning his words as you. It is he who inspired these words;
1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

The man who had the authority to rebuke and to say these words was the man who had been given the authority, the apostle. The apostles spoke as if they were Christ.

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church:
25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

I advise reading the whole context and meditating on this great truth. I say again that the signature of Satan is all over this philosophy of continual printing of new Bibles and Paraphrases in the English language, IMO..

In what way does any of what you said here not apply to the King James Bible as much as any other translation of the bible?

In other words, your argument here would be in defense of reading the bible only in its original language except that it quotes an English translation in order make the argument, which is rather self-defeating, isn't it?

There is a concise terminology of scripture that I think embodies the fundamentals of Christianity. It is this, "THE FAITH." This is a NT Christianity phrase not appearing in the OT or the gospels, but first appearing in Acts 3:16 at the beginning of Christianity. When he speaks of the faith he is speaking of the fundamentals of Christianity. These are things that are most surely believed among us. The phrase appears in 42 verses in the NT and I suggest that reading them will be a valuable use of time.

Now again, this is true of my Bible and it may or may not be true of yours. There is a numerical structure to the scriptures and #42 is a number that is associated with gentiles.

Maybe you could just give me the gist of what you're getting at.

Well, you did not provide any examples and I have not wavered on my beliefs. However, I have been as conciliatory as possible, not wanting to be offensive through my personality and presentation of the truth so we can keep this discussion going. I think I have some important things to say.

This is al I have to say on the KJV Bible and the translation issues here because this thread is about the kingdom, at hand.

What you've stated up to this point has been entirely unconvincing, somewhat less than rational even.

Can you maybe provide a link to something where you or someone you respect gives an argument that doesn't do as much damage to the KJV as it does to any other translation of the bible?

 

[JD731]

I agree that I did not word that very well and I agree with your post.

Let me ask; Can there be, the kingdom of God, outside of the resurrection of Jesus the Christ and those who are Christ's at his appearing?

There cannot be the kingdom of God as described in the scriptures without the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ because of sin and death in the world. His kingdom is described as an everlasting kingdom and the citizens of his kingdom have everlasting life from God as a gift. That situation was not possible until the very minute that God raised Jesus Christ from the dead. As long as sin is in the world there will be death in it. Jesus Christ came into the world, not to conquer nations and men but to conquer sin and death, the great enemies of mankind.

Now, whether anyone wants to believe this or not, Jesus Christ has put away sin by his sacrificial death on behalf of all men. By putting away he simply means he has provided the atonement for sin, which is a covering to take sin out of the vision of God. This covering is his own righteousness that God testifies that he, Jesus, possesses. The sacrifice was his own blood, which is the life of man and the Spirit of God who indwelt his body, the life of God, and God was fully satisfied on behalf of the whole world by this once forever offering for sin. God has made reconciliation now between himself and sinful men, not being able to see sin, but it takes two parties for restoration. Sinful men must receive the atonement during their lifetime because there is a judgement after men are dead and if the atonement was nor received there will not be a resurrection of the body unto life.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Mal 3:16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.
17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

Consider these verses:

John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world (kosmos = planet)
When?
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world (kosmos=planet)): but now once in the end of the world (aion=age) hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself..

Now let's go back a moment to the kingdom at hand when Jesus came. If the kingdom would have already been in place before Jesus even chose his officers of his kingdom, logic and reason would tell us that it is quite silly to preach that something is at hand that is already in place.

After Jesus rose from the dead, sufficient time would be needed to baptize those Jews who had believed in him during his public ministry and to give them the indwelling Spirit that Jesus had promised to them in passages like John 6. The apostles and the elders which had been chosen by Jesus were commissioned to preach the gospel to none but Jews only. I know this by the fact that their commission included the command to baptize every creature before they received the Holy Ghost and the Holy Ghost was given by the laying on of the apostles hands. These men had been specially equipped to have the discernment of Jesus Christ when he pronounced that whatsoever they would bind on earth would be bound in heaven and whatsoever they loosed on earth would be loosed in heaven. At this same time they were given the Spirit of Jesus Christ by his breathing him into them in John 20 on resurrection Sunday. I have followed their careers for the next 7 years and know they did not leave Jerusalem and Judaea. Look at this passage after the national rejection of the Holy Spirit by the Jewish rulers when they killed Stephen.

Ac 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles. What Jesus had said to the apostles just a few weeks earlier when he was facing crucifixion may have had an influence on their decision to stay in Jerusalem. Remember what he said?

Mt 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

So the pattern of the kingdom is structured after Moses and later the judges. Moses, Joshua, and David on his throne in the future being the three principle men in the kingdom.

Remember what the apostles asked Jesus when he ascended back to heaven. It was a legitimate question because both Jesus and the apostles preached for 31/2 years that the kingdom was at hand and was coming. Here is the exchange;

Ac 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Now, they were completely without understanding and light concerning this age until Paul, the man commissioned of God to reveal the mysteries of this age, which would include the gentiles as equal in stature and with God as the Jews during this mystery form of the kingdom while the King was gone back to heaven to receive his kingdom from the Father and to return.

Lu 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

Ac 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

When Jesus said he came to fulfill all that was written of him in the Psalms, Moses, Prophets, he was not speaking of this age because the mysteries of this age are not written in those portions of scriptures. They are revealed in this age and they are temporary on the earth.

Is the kingdom of God that Jesus introduced relative to the kingdom spoken of in Daniel 2:44?

The kingdom that was "at hand" surely was. I have chosen to continue speaking about the kingdom in this post. There is much to know and God will teach us if we will believe the words and honor context. I know your first introduction to the truth of the kingdom is difficult for you, but hang in there and allow God to teach you .The reward will be great.

 

[JD731]

Never heard of it.

Neither I nor ChatGPT could find any reference to "the doctrine of comparison" anywhere on the internet.

Who made ChatGPT and the internet the end of all authority?

In what way does any of what you said here not apply to the King James Bible as much as any other translation of the bible?

In other words, your argument here would be in defense of reading the bible only in its original language except that it quotes an English translation in order make the argument, which is rather self-defeating, isn't it?

If that is what you think, then I am okay with it and certainly not intimidated or anxious because you take that view. I have already indicated that your choice of Bibles is between you and God, or maybe ChatGPT and the internet and it is not my calling to try to change your mind about it. This one thing is dead sure though, there is going to be areas of disagreement on doctrines between you and me because we are not reading the same words and our studies of those words do not take us to the same comparisons of scriptures. Dead sure this is true.

Maybe you could just give me the gist of what you're getting at.

This would not apply to one who had several Bibles all with different words.

What you've stated up to this point has been entirely unconvincing, somewhat less than rational even.

Well...... okay!!........

Can you maybe provide a link to something where you or someone you respect gives an argument that doesn't do as much damage to the KJV as it does to any other translation of the bible?

I like to make up my own mind about the scriptures. Do you have any opinion on the kingdom of heaven is at hand?

 

[ChristB4Us]

Thanks percho, I take that answer as a, no. I do have the answer to your question. It is "timing."

"Ga 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,"
Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us (Hebrews) by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; (aions = ages)
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world (kosmos): but now once in the end of the world (aion = age) hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

BUT, the end of one thing can also be the beginning of another;

Mr 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; (at his baptism) 2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
This is when he first appeared to his people in the capacity of Messiah.

Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

God bless your understanding in these things.

To Mark 1:1 we have this prophesy regarding that water baptism of Jesus Christ as fulfilling all righteousness as inferring in fulfilling that prophesy in Isaiah.

Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

 

[JD731]

To Mark 1:1 we have this prophesy regarding that water baptism of Jesus Christ as fulfilling all righteousness as inferring in fulfilling that prophesy in Isaiah.

Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Thanks for your input on my op, CB4U, but I do not see any answer to the question of the op in your comments.

If you want to talk about baptism in water, I will write a few words. It seems to me that God baptizes all of his physical creation in water. It seems the universe itself is under water. I do not mean we are immersed in water but we are certainly under it and over it.

Ps 136:6 To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Ps 148:4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens.

The earth
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

Israel the nation of God and the Son of God was baptized in water in connection with the Father when they were born in the flesh in Egypt and were baptized in the red sea proving one does not have to get wet to be baptized in water.

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

They were baptized in water in connection with the Son;

Mt 3:5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

They were baptized in water in connection with the Holy Ghost;

Ac 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

It is interesting that baptism in water didn't save any of the house of Israel.

The church of Jesus Christ is baptized in water after the Holy Ghost is given;

Ac 10:42 And he commanded us (the apostles) to preach unto the people (of Israel), and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

All these same entities will be baptized in fire in the future but I will not give you all the references now, but they are there. I will give you the fire baptism of the church of Jesus Christ. It will take place in heaven.

1Co 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Fire is the great refiner but here I am just musing waiting for someone to answer the op, but in a mood to write something about the Lord and his wonderful book..

 

[Charlie24]

Did Jesus choose his officers of his kingdom after the model of Moses in the wilderness, twelve heads of Israel and 70 appointed elders?

Mt 4:17 From that time (the time he began to dwell in Capernaum of Galilee) Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

The answer to the question should be a yes or a no.

My answer is yes. A solid yes.

Yes, I believe the Kingdom of God was at hand for Israel. Christ came only for the house of Israel to bring them salvation first, but as we see in Scripture, Christ never turned down the faith of a Gentile.

Israel was chosen by God to take the salvation of Christ to the world. Had they accepted Christ, the light of Christ would have went out through the tribes of Israel to the ends of the world..

Isa. 49:6
"And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth."

If Israel had accepted Christ, there would be no Church Age as we know it now. But they rejected Him and Christ turned to the Church to carry the light of Christ to the world.

It's important for us to remember that the Church is God's second choice. God gave Israel His Law and it was Israel that He chose to bear the Messiah into this world.

Israel failed in their calling but Paul tells us that God has not repented of that calling for Israel, they will yet fulfill that calling as His chosen people.

Israel rejecting Christ and therefore rejected the Kingdom of Heaven on this earth has added some 2000 years, so far, to the coming of the Kingdom Age. That Kingdom can't come without Israel!

 

[JD731]

Yes, I believe the Kingdom of God was at hand for Israel. Christ came only for the house of Israel to bring them salvation first, but as we see in Scripture, Christ never turned down the faith of a Gentile.

Israel was chosen by God to take the salvation of Christ to the world. Had they accepted Christ, the light of Christ would have went out through the tribes of Israel to the ends of the world..

Isa. 49:6
"And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth."

If Israel had accepted Christ, there would be no Church Age as we know it now. But they rejected Him and Christ turned to the Church to carry the light of Christ to the world.

It's important for us to remember that the Church is God's second choice. God gave Israel His Law and it was Israel that He chose to bear the Messiah into this world.

Israel failed in their calling but Paul tells us that God has not repented of that calling for Israel, they will yet fulfill that calling as His chosen people.

Israel rejecting Christ and therefore rejected the Kingdom of Heaven on this earth has added some 2000 years, so far, to the coming of the Kingdom Age. That Kingdom can't come without Israel!

thanks Charlie24, that is some sound reasoning.

 

[ChristB4Us]

Thanks for your input on my op, CB4U, but I do not see any answer to the question of the op in your comments.

I was adding scripture to your reference of Mark 1:1 to confirm the word you were sharing in one of your points in that post.