was the Law In Effect Until Christ, But Now Done Away With?

[JesusFan]

Yes, I agree, if you are not implying that we obey the law only through Christ vicariously (positionaly) and not in actual practice.

believe that christians are asked by God to obey Him and follow the commands of Jesus and Apostles, but that ONLY can be done fruithfully
by the enabling power of the HS within us..

obey God NOT because of 'law keeping" to save us, or keep us saved, but out of love towards Him and desiring to do the Will of God!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

When did the law stop being written on our hearts (Jer 31:33; 2Cor 3:3; Heb 8:10; 10:16). And when did the Ten Commandments become the Nine Suggestions (cf. Matt 5:19)?

Steve

 

[JesusFan]

When did the law stop being written on our hearts (Jer 31:33; 2Cor 3:3; Heb 8:10; 10:16). And when did the Ten Commandments become the Nine Suggestions (cf. Matt 5:19)?

Steve

Served its main purpose, as it showed me that I was a sinner, God is Holy, my rightousness would not get it...

So jesus saved me by His grace, and now have the law in my heart as it is internal, as the HS provides me His power to keep it...

The law cannot save anyone, can bring/lead to jesus, and from there, God has it in me, and provided HS to allow me to keep them IF I rely upon His power and grace...

 

[Amy.G]

believe that christians are asked by God to obey Him and follow the commands of Jesus and Apostles, but that ONLY can be done fruithfully
by the enabling power of the HS within us..

fruithfully? :laugh:

That's a new one on me.

 

[JesusFan]

fruithfully? :laugh:

That's a new one on me.

guess I must have read it from the "NIV 2012"!

 

[glfredrick]

I've seen a bunch of dancing around in this thread, but only one or two responders that are even headed in the right direction concerning the Law, fulfilled on our behalf.

In fact, the utter and absolute totality of God's Law must be fulfilled for any of us to gain our place as His adopted and justified sons. That we cannot fulfill the Law, no matter how hard we try, or how hard we work, is cause for much grief and consternation on our part, as we are literally damned and doomed for our shortcomings in this regard, not to mention the basic issue of our sin and rebellion.

The Law was, however, fulfilled completely, both actively and passively, by Jesus Christ. Praise God, when we are effectually called by God, adopted, justified, regenerated, have faith and repentance, work out our sanctification by the power of the Holy Spirit, persevere, and are ultimately glorified, the perfect righteousness in the Law, kept by Jesus Christ, is imputed to us, thus we stand before God's throne at judgment and suffer no condemnation. Our "advocate" has kept for us, and satisfied the demands made of us, on our behalf, something that we cannot "choose," "work out," or otherwise gain on our own accord.

That the Law still exists as something we look to is explained by Paul, i.e., it is our "schoolmaster" to teach us the mind and will of Almighty God, and to also point out for us the utter futility of our every trying to gain God's eternity by our own keeping of the Law. We do not "disregard" the Law, we do not live or die by the Law, but the Law directs us as to a life pleasing to God, always in force and never set aside by the grace that we inherit!

 

[JesusFan]

I've seen a bunch of dancing around in this thread, but only one or two responders that are even headed in the right direction concerning the Law, fulfilled on our behalf.

In fact, the utter and absolute totality of God's Law must be fulfilled for any of us to gain our place as His adopted and justified sons. That we cannot fulfill the Law, no matter how hard we try, or how hard we work, is cause for much grief and consternation on our part, as we are literally damned and doomed for our shortcomings in this regard, not to mention the basic issue of our sin and rebellion.

The Law was, however, fulfilled completely, both actively and passively, by Jesus Christ. Praise God, when we are effectually called by God, adopted, justified, regenerated, have faith and repentance, work out our sanctification by the power of the Holy Spirit, persevere, and are ultimately glorified, the perfect righteousness in the Law, kept by Jesus Christ, is imputed to us, thus we stand before God's throne at judgment and suffer no condemnation. Our "advocate" has kept for us, and satisfied the demands made of us, on our behalf, something that we cannot "choose," "work out," or otherwise gain on our own accord.

That the Law still exists as something we look to is explained by Paul, i.e., it is our "schoolmaster" to teach us the mind and will of Almighty God, and to also point out for us the utter futility of our every trying to gain God's eternity by our own keeping of the Law. We do not "disregard" the Law, we do not live or die by the Law, but the Law directs us as to a life pleasing to God, always in force and never set aside by the grace that we inherit!

How close am I in my understanding of this?

 

[thomas15]

Most disputes about the 10 Commandment proceed immediately to the Sabbath, the 1 of 10 that is most controversial.

The Gospel made the Law obsolete. I'm not saying that the church should try to keep the law, however... The preterist states that Jesus returned in AD 70 when the Roman Army destroyed the Temple based on the time text of Matt 24 & 25. This I believe causes problems when trying to understand Matt 24 vs. 20 where Jesus states that believers should pray that their flight (from the wrath against Jerusalem) not take place during a sabbath or in winter. If there is no vestage of the Law when the wrath comes (or as the preterist claims already came), and the New Testament books are for the church, with nothing but death/judgement or the eternal state in the future as the post-mils believe, why then would Jesus mention the sabbath in this passage?

Premil theology with it's tribulation (temple) proceeding the 1000 year rule of Christ does not have this problem to explain.

A possible preterist retort may be that since the pre-mils teach a rapture of the church prior to the tribulation then how can any christian receive practical benifit from this particular teaching on the second advent? The solution I believe would lie in the belief that once the church is removed, many will still come to the faith in Christ during the tribulation period and will look to the completed Scriptures, Old and New Testaments as the Word of God.

 

[preacher4truth]

How close am I in my understanding of this?

You're in the bottom of the top 5, "fruithfully" speaking. :laugh:

 

[JesusFan]

The Gospel made the Law obsolete. I'm not saying that the church should try to keep the law, however... The preterist states that Jesus returned in AD 70 when the Roman Army destroyed the Temple based on the time text of Matt 24 & 25. This I believe causes problems when trying to understand Matt 24 vs. 20 where Jesus states that believers should pray that their flight (from the wrath against Jerusalem) not take place during a sabbath or in winter. If there is no vestage of the Law when the wrath comes (or as the preterist claims already came), and the New Testament books are for the church, with nothing but death/judgement or the eternal state in the future as the post-mils believe, why then would Jesus mention the sabbath in this passage?

Premil theology with it's tribulation (temple) proceeding the 1000 year rule of Christ does not have this problem to explain.

A possible preterist retort may be that since the pre-mils teach a rapture of the church prior to the tribulation then how can any christian receive practical benifit from this particular teaching on the second advent? The solution I believe would lie in the belief that once the church is removed, many will still come to the faith in Christ during the tribulation period and will look to the completed Scriptures, Old and New Testaments as the Word of God.

Think key phrase is when Jesus stating that ALL of the law is even now in effect, UNTIL ALL is accomplished/fulfilled!
Which happened by Jesus death upon the Cross, and temple curtain being rent apart by God...

 

[AresMan]

Most disputes about the 10 Commandment proceed immediately to the Sabbath, the 1 of 10 that is most controversial. My own view of it is not whether one is a sabbatarian or not, but whether one says, "HOW does does commandment apply to me?", rather than saying, "DOES this commandment apply to me?", simply blowing it off as if God's Law could be disregarded.

John Calvin took the side of Hebrews 4 fulfillment, a position I find suitable. So the Sabbath APPLIES to the Christian, and we obey it in the worship of Christ.

I never said that the Law was abolished. I said that it was fulfilled. We as Christians keep the Law by keeping the spirit of the Law (New Covenant), not the ordinances (Old Covenant). The ordinances were shadows of the Person and Work of Christ.

The New Covenant has no Sabbath day. The entire Christian life is a Sabbath unto Christ.
The New Covenant has no continual burnt offerings. Christ was the one-time Perfect Sacrifice. We offer spiritual sacrifices of praise as Peter said, and we offer our bodies a living sacrifice as Paul said.

 

[thomas15]

Think key phrase is when Jesus stating that ALL of the law is even now in effect, UNTIL ALL is accomplished/fulfilled!
Which happened by Jesus death upon the Cross, and temple curtain being rent apart by God...

Of course another problem preterist face in their Matt 24/AD 70 second advent is that while Matthew doesn't specify the agency of judgement (Roman Army), John in Revelation does, numerous armies from various places.

 

[JesusFan]

Of course another problem preterist face in their Matt 24/AD 70 second advent is that while Matthew doesn't specify the agency of judgement (Roman Army), John in Revelation does, numerous armies from various places.

they fail to seperate the events predicted to be done at that time, and far into the future...

prophecy partially fulfilled in AD 70, but greater portion is still to come!

 

[thomas15]

they fail to seperate the events predicted to be done at that time, and far into the future...

prophecy partially fulfilled in AD 70, but greater portion is still to come!

And yet the unflappable preterist J.D. in post #6 claims that any confusion on this matter is the sole responsibility of the dispies!

The question has to be asked, are the Scriptures the infallable Word of God? Or are they something else? I'm personally in the infallable camp, sola scripture, the Bible alone is the authority.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I never said that the Law was abolished. I said that it was fulfilled. We as Christians keep the Law by keeping the spirit of the Law (New Covenant), not the ordinances (Old Covenant). The ordinances were shadows of the Person and Work of Christ.

The New Covenant has no Sabbath day. The entire Christian life is a Sabbath unto Christ.
The New Covenant has no continual burnt offerings. Christ was the one-time Perfect Sacrifice. We offer spiritual sacrifices of praise as Peter said, and we offer our bodies a living sacrifice as Paul said.

I can't help noticing that you offer no Scripture for these views, though I must confess that I shared them until a few years ago.

Jesus Christ is Lord of the Sabbath (Mark 2:28). He tells us that, "Whoever therefore breaks the least of these commandments, and teaches men so shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven" (Matt 5:19). Our Lord's interpretation of the commandments is that even to think of breaking them is a sin (Matt 5:21ff).

That's why we need a Saviour! :jesus:

Steve

 

[JesusFan]

I can't help noticing that you offer no Scripture for these views, though I must confess that I shared them until a few years ago.

Jesus Christ is Lord of the Sabbath (Mark 2:28). He tells us that, "Whoever therefore breaks the least of these commandments, and teaches men so shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven" (Matt 5:19). Our Lord's interpretation of the commandments is that even to think of breaking them is a sin (Matt 5:21ff).

That's why we need a Saviour! :jesus:

Steve

fULFILLED in person of Jesus, by His life and death on our behalf, so that law was nailed to the Cross. ordinances and all, as we NOW live under Grace, not the Law!

 

[thomas15]

.........The New Covenant has no Sabbath day. The entire Christian life is a Sabbath unto Christ.

I'm not saying that Christians should observe the Sabbath, however:

If I were to read say Jer ch. 31 which talks about the New Covenant, I'm going to see Scripture there that supports your view on the Sabbath? When I read in the New Testament gospel accounts, the last supper, I'm going to see words in red letters saying the (whole) Christian life is a Sabbath (day of rest) unto the Savior? As Christians, are we not supposed to work for our keep? If I take out a concordance and read every place where the word Sabbath is rendered in the NT, I'm going to see your view plain as day?

Would it be unfair to say that your statement that I quote above is a contradiction of itself? How can you have no Sabbath but instead have every day a Sabbath?

 

[thomas15]

fULFILLED in person of Jesus, by His life and death on our behalf, so that law was nailed to the Cross. ordinances and all, as we NOW live under Grace, not the Law!

So before Jesus went to the cross, salvation was by something other than grace?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

fULFILLED in person of Jesus, by His life and death on our behalf, so that law was nailed to the Cross. ordinances and all, as we NOW live under Grace, not the Law!

Praise God for it! But is not one part of God's grace the fact that the law is now written on the hearts of believers (2Cor 3:3; Heb 8:10; 10:16) so that we can say, 'For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments, and His commandments are not burdensome' (1John 5:3)?

As I wrote earlier, the Ten Commandments have not suddenly become the Nine Suggestions.

Steve

 

[JesusFan]

So before Jesus went to the cross, salvation was by something other than grace?

No, ALL people that have ever been saved is by Grace of God effectually applied to them by faith towards God and His promises made...

its just that the law served it function before coming of the Messiah, once Jesus came to do his work of fulfilling ALL of it obligations, and once jesus did that, those of us saved by Grace are under new dispensation of the new Covenant relationship with God...