I wish that were true, but I have first hand experience that it isn't.
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Was The Rich Young Ruler Lost Eternally?
- Thread starter tyndale1946
- Start date
I doubt it.
As with any person our first hand experience is always limited. I have heard a number of testimonies throughout my life how different individuals were saved through a Billy Graham crusade which is basically the same thing. They may have drifted away after that because there is no follow up, especially when they are told to go back to their own church which could be apostate. But their salvation experience seems to be genuine enough.
I worked with a woman who said she repeated a prayer and that she meant it with all her heart. She's in the throes of WoF, too.
Percho said:
Interesting application I never looked at it that way before!... Brother Glen
Interesting application I never looked at it that way before!... Brother Glen
So if you asked her whether or not her salvation was based on repeating a prayer of on Jesus and his shed blood she would deny Jesus and say that the only thing her salvation was based on was saying a prayer she repeated?
Pastor_Bob
Well-Known Member
I disagree. I believe the evidence clearly indicates that this man walked away lost. If this man had kept the law perfectly like you say, he would have had no need of salvation; he would have earned it himself. We know this is true because Jesus Himself told him, "but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." If this man had indeed kept every single commandment and had not transgressed in one, he would have eternal life, according to Jesus.
What he balked at was selling his possessions and giving them to the poor. In fact, this "grieved" him. The reason is clear that he "had great possessions." He had no intentions of parting with his material wealth. They were a higher priority than was the Lord Jesus. This man was clearly trusting in riches rather than in Jesus; hence, Jesus' words to His disciples, "Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!" The implication is quite clear...this young man was trusting in his riches.
I said the same thing but used different words. He very well may have been born again later. I certainly hope that he did.
I'll take the words of our Lord over Pink any day of the week. The Lord told him to "sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor." In other words, "You have not observed the entire law from your youth because you have not 'loved thy neighbour as thyself.' If you had, you would 'sell that thou hast, and give to the poor.'"
Jesus was teaching this young man a very key truth - love is the fulfilling of the law. You can say all day, "I have kept the law from my youth," but if you're not manifesting that in your everyday life, they are just empty words.
Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
Nope. Where he 'messed up' is when he thought he had kept the law. Others who believe that hold the same error.
He had not kept the law. Obviously he was covetous, which is idolatry, which is breaking the commandments like the balance of lost mankind.
No one else is either. I see others rightly dividing the Scriptures and avoiding mysticism or mystical eisegetical interpretations.
I don't think that the issue here is one of the Law.
I think the reason Jesus didn’t deny that the man kept the commandments was to drive home a point the man already suspected. The religious sects argued about the “good thing” that was required to justify men. Jesus told him to keep the commandments, and the man thought that he had. Yet there is a sense, I believe, that the man was aware that he had fallen short of God’s righteousness.
Jesus tells him that he lacks one thing. Give up all his possessions and follow Him. I believe the man does not leave believing eternal life is not worth giving up all his possessions, but he leaves thinking that he does not have to give up everything to obtain it. He rejects the idea of repentance.
And that is how we are today. Everyone wants and seeks salvation in one form or another. And when some find Christ, or He finds them, they want Him as an addition to their lives. Just like that rich young ruler they don’t want to give up everything and follow him. It isn’t because people don’t think He’s worth it. It’s that they want salvation but they want salvation on their own terms, as an addition. Belief without repentance. And this is the disease we struggle with, even in our churches.
I think the reason Jesus didn’t deny that the man kept the commandments was to drive home a point the man already suspected. The religious sects argued about the “good thing” that was required to justify men. Jesus told him to keep the commandments, and the man thought that he had. Yet there is a sense, I believe, that the man was aware that he had fallen short of God’s righteousness.
Jesus tells him that he lacks one thing. Give up all his possessions and follow Him. I believe the man does not leave believing eternal life is not worth giving up all his possessions, but he leaves thinking that he does not have to give up everything to obtain it. He rejects the idea of repentance.
And that is how we are today. Everyone wants and seeks salvation in one form or another. And when some find Christ, or He finds them, they want Him as an addition to their lives. Just like that rich young ruler they don’t want to give up everything and follow him. It isn’t because people don’t think He’s worth it. It’s that they want salvation but they want salvation on their own terms, as an addition. Belief without repentance. And this is the disease we struggle with, even in our churches.
Yes. The reason being that we are all going to be judged by our works, which
God perfectly equips each of us to do by writing that law upon our hearts.
Yes. That's what I mean. He gives each of us (His redeemed) 'the want to'. However, "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak". But thank God:
10 He hath not dealt with us after our sins, Nor rewarded us after our iniquities.
11 For as the heavens are high above the earth, So great is his lovingkindness toward them that fear him. Ps 103
8 Blessed is the man to whom, the Lord will not reckon sin. Ro 4
Yes. All that's needed is to rightly divide:
....the doers of the law shall be justified Ro 2:13 - Works that come naturally from the regenerate heart.
....by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified... Ro 3:20 - Works performed intentionally to earn favor.
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Well, I didn't say that and neither did RYR claim to be perfect.
And you read a whooooole lot of your own opinion into the text which I simply don't have time to give answer because gardening season has suddenly come upon me.
I am sorry that you think I'm a liar.
When I was in Lesotho last year with the Gideons, we visited a lot of schools and spoke to the children.
As you may know, in the back of a Gideon N.T. there is a 'sinner's prayer' and a place to sign if one has prayed it.
There was one of my colleagues who was constantly encouraging the children to sign their names. He didn't ask them to read the Testament, or to repent or do anything else but sign their names. This guy is a senior member of the Gideons in the USA and therefore a member in good standing of a church who believes that the Bible is the very word of God; yet he thinks that you get saved by signing your name at the bottom of a 'sinner's prayer.'
It is unfortunate when that happens. But that doesn't take away from a genuine salvation experience. We had such a person (exactly as you described), saved at a Billy Graham Crusade; came forward, repeated a prayer, and ended up in something like a WoF church, where she became very confused. Eventually, by God's grace, she was led to our church. She maintain's that her salvation experience was real, that is, the time when she trusted Christ was in that Crusade, but simply was confused after that. Since she started to attend our church she has grown and matured in the Lord. (that was some time ago).
But one cannot take away from their salvation just because the follow-up is lacking.
I think that this issue becomes touchy because abuses of such things as the “sinners prayer” are presented as normal practice (and for some, perhaps it is).
Growing up within a SBC environment (going to the Baptist Bookstore, participating in EE, learning the Roman Road, the sinners prayer, and listening to Queen’s “Another One Bites the Dust” backwards to see if it really said that it was fun to smoke marijuana) I heard the “sinners prayer” often.
Many worry when some denounce the “prayer” or the “Roman Road” simply because their experience is that people have indeed come to Christ through such things. They disagree because it was one of those methods that carried the good news to them in a meaningful way. I am one of those people. But I do understand that these methods have been abused. I don't agree that they are in themselves abuses, but they have been implemented in such a manner as to manifest a poor understanding of the gospel message. I have met people who felt misled by the exact same "prayer" through which I came to understand the gospel message. And I've seen such things abused as well.
Growing up within a SBC environment (going to the Baptist Bookstore, participating in EE, learning the Roman Road, the sinners prayer, and listening to Queen’s “Another One Bites the Dust” backwards to see if it really said that it was fun to smoke marijuana) I heard the “sinners prayer” often.
Many worry when some denounce the “prayer” or the “Roman Road” simply because their experience is that people have indeed come to Christ through such things. They disagree because it was one of those methods that carried the good news to them in a meaningful way. I am one of those people. But I do understand that these methods have been abused. I don't agree that they are in themselves abuses, but they have been implemented in such a manner as to manifest a poor understanding of the gospel message. I have met people who felt misled by the exact same "prayer" through which I came to understand the gospel message. And I've seen such things abused as well.
I agree. It has led to a type of easy-believism type of gospel. But some would shut it out completely to say that a person cannot be saved this way. And that is why I spoke up. It is true that there are also false professions, probably many of them. But that doesn't take away from the salvation of those that did get saved. Personally I am not in favor of that method of evangelization either.
True enough. But some methods lead to more false decisions than others. I do know that from experience. I can get a crowd of people to pray this prayer after me. But that doesn't mean they will all be saved.
No they don't. The methods are not the problem. You can preach the most biblically sound sermon on the gospel in all of time and there will be some who respond with wrong intentions. The real problem for some is not the method but it is their doctrine. There are some who would be against certain methods no matter what because of the personal decision factor. They deny that is possible and so they demonize that which opposes their doctrine.
I agree. Too often people rely on methods instead of the Spirit in conversion (either they rely on a method to save, or they fault a method for not facilitating salvation). IMHO, both those who would rely on a prayer to save and those who view the prayer as somehow rendering God powerless are elevating a method over doctrine. When the gospel message is communicated and the Holy Spirit works within a person to salvation, the "sinners prayer" can be a confirmation (it cannot defeat this work of God). Likewise, if the gospel is not presented clearly or God is not working in the live of a man, no method (whether it is the sinners prayer or not) will save that soul.
It is the doctrine taught and God working both through that doctrine and in the lives of men that makes the difference, not the method used.