Was The Rich Young Ruler Lost Eternally?

[SovereignGrace]

So if you asked her whether or not her salvation was based on repeating a prayer of on Jesus and his shed blood she would deny Jesus and say that the only thing her salvation was based on was saying a prayer she repeated?

To be honest(sorry about the lengthy delay), I haven't spoken to her in quite some time. She is full-blown WoF, is a 'minister' as she ministers to women in a women's prison, and had told me of laying hands on them and they receiving the Spirit. She is even a full-blown pelaginaist as she told me once that people didn't have to have the Spirit draw them to come to Him. I no longer work where she does.

 

[Revmitchell]

To be honest(sorry about the lengthy delay), I haven't spoken to her in quite some time. She is full-blown WoF, is a 'minister' as she ministers to women in a women's prison, and had told me of laying hands on them and they receiving the Spirit. She is even a full-blown pelaginaist as she told me once that people didn't have to have the Spirit draw them to come to Him. I no longer work where she does.

Well there ya go. the method was not the issue it was the theology.

 

[kyredneck]

he said he kept the law of Moses from his youth up and how many of us can claim that?

we fully believe that he was one of God's elect and was "saved" sometime after his interview with our Lord

Jesus used the Ten Commandments (or the law) to demonstrate that he had not kept them from his youth up as he had claimed.

He thought he kept the commandments

Take the law totally out of the equation.

"eternal life," the "kingdom," and "saved" used in the same passage

JonC, it's odd you don't mention/include THE LAW in this/your astute observation. On another occasion He was asked the same question, and He once again directed them to the law:

25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and made trial of him, saying, Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 And he said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. Lu 10

Why didn't He just come out and say 'Believe in Me and you will inherit eternal life'? If that's all there is to acquiring immortality why direct them to the law, TWICE?
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There's something very wrong with your religion if you're a professing Christian and are not 'observing the law' as put forth by Christ to RYR and here:

12 All things therefore whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you, even so do ye also unto them: for this is the law and the prophets. Mt 7

And as put forth by Paul:

8 Owe no man anything, save to love one another: for he that loveth his neighbor hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: love therefore is the fulfilment of the law. Ro 13

Even the Rabbinism of Christ's day had condensed the law to it's simplest terms:

“…Rabbinism is never weary of quoting as one of the characteristic sayings of its greatest teacher, Hillel (who, of course, lived before this time), that he had summed up the Law, in briefest compass, in these words: ‘What is hateful to thee, that do not to another. This is the whole Law; the rest is only its explanation…..” Life & Times - Edersheim

 

[kyredneck]

Only the writer of Mark stated Jesus loved him.

So? What? Are all these made moot because they're found only in one book?:

…. Teacher, all these things have I observed from my youth. And Jesus looking upon him loved him… Mk 10:20,21

Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus. Jn 11:5

She runneth therefore, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple whom Jesus loved…. Jn 20:2

7 That disciple therefore whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord….

20 Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following… Jn 21

 

[JonC]

JonC, it's odd you don't mention/include THE LAW in this/your astute observation.

My astuteness only extended to noticing the three terms used to describe the same thing in that one passage. I just haven’t noticed it before.

Insofar as the Law goes, I do not think that this was Jesus’ focus at all (except perhaps that through its performance one cannot gain eternal life/ enter the kingdom/ be saved).

But in regards to "loving God with all your heart and soul and strength, and your neighbor as yourself", well....this is the repentance I believe Jesus was speaking of.

 

[percho]

So? What? Are all these made moot because they're found only in one book?:

…. Teacher, all these things have I observed from my youth. And Jesus looking upon him loved him… Mk 10:20,21

Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus. Jn 11:5

She runneth therefore, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple whom Jesus loved…. Jn 20:2

7 That disciple therefore whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord….

20 Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following… Jn 21

No, I showed that because I have heard it said that because it was Mark that made the statement of Jesus loving the RYR, possibly the RYR was Mark and that is why it is added in that account of the RYR. Mark as in John Mark in Acts.

Doesn't Jesus show the RYR that he will not continue to keep the law, in that, he will not continue to love God with all his heart, in that, he will not forsake all?
Therefore because of the law, love God with all your heart, being he loved the things of the flesh more, he would not be able to enter the kingdom of God, be saved, inherit eternal life.

When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

What is man? Forasmuch then as the children (of man) are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same;

He, the only one who loved God, in the manner of the law, with all his heart, that was worthy of eternal life, and even he died.

Here is a thought. Hebrews 5:7 KJV Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from (out of) death, and was heard in that he feared;

Was the only one who ever loved God with all his heart, saved, out of death? By Whom?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Well there ya go. the method was not the issue it was the theology.

There is much truth in what you posted above, but I tend to think/believe bad theology produces bad methods. My case in point.

Here where I live, most would be classified as five point Arminians. They think you can lose your salvation easier than your car keys. I listened closely to an altar call one morning a while back. After a few minutes of no one coming forward, the pastor then asked if anyone would want to be remembered in their prayers, and if yes, just raise their hand. A few did this, and the pastor then said that God may honor that raising of their hands somewhere down the road. I was thinking 'huh?' That's works, plain and simple.

So, many have come forward and prayed after many minutes of begging during an altar call only to be 'back out' in no time, and they said they backslid/fell from grace. What did they fall from? Their own steadfastness. So bad theology leads to bad methods.

 

[tyndale1946]

There is much truth in what you posted above, but I tend to think/believe bad theology produces bad methods. My case in point.

Here where I live, most would be classified as five point Arminians. They think you can lose your salvation easier than your car keys. I listened closely to an altar call one morning a while back. After a few minutes of no one coming forward, the pastor then asked if anyone would want to be remembered in their prayers, and if yes, just raise their hand. A few did this, and the pastor then said that God may honor that raising of their hands somewhere down the road. I was thinking 'huh?' That's works, plain and simple.

So, many have come forward and prayed after many minutes of begging during an altar call only to be 'back out' in no time, and they said they backslid/fell from grace. What did they fall from? Their own steadfastness. So bad theology leads to bad methods.

At my Grandmothers funeral her minister gave an altar call?... Well that was her Baptist Church but an altar call at a funeral?... Brother Glen

 

[SovereignGrace]

At my Grandmothers funeral her minister gave an altar call?... Well that was her Baptist Church but an altar call at a funeral?... Brother Glen

One time a few years back, I went to a neighbor's wake...that's what we call them...the meetings with the deceased family a day or two before the funeral...and the assistant pastor of the church my neighbor attended did an altar call after he preached.

 

[JonC]

There is much truth in what you posted above, but I tend to think/believe bad theology produces bad methods. My case in point.

Here where I live, most would be classified as five point Arminians. They think you can lose your salvation easier than your car keys. I listened closely to an altar call one morning a while back. After a few minutes of no one coming forward, the pastor then asked if anyone would want to be remembered in their prayers, and if yes, just raise their hand. A few did this, and the pastor then said that God may honor that raising of their hands somewhere down the road. I was thinking 'huh?' That's works, plain and simple.

So, many have come forward and prayed after many minutes of begging during an altar call only to be 'back out' in no time, and they said they backslid/fell from grace. What did they fall from? Their own steadfastness. So bad theology leads to bad methods.

There is much truth in what you posted above, but I tend to think/believe bad theology misuses methods, Scripture, and biblical practices in general.

Here where I live, most would be classified as moderate (fill in the blank). I have often seen the "sinners prayer" used, but I have never witnessed the method used in such a way as described here. I know of two churches in my area who use the "sinners prayer," and both are baptist. But if someone goes down at the "altar call" for "praying the prayer," they are not assumed "saved." What happens is that they are assigned a mentor to work with them throughout the week and the pastor meets with them weekly. They teach the gospel, the meaning of baptism, etc. When it is determined (the best one can determine the heart of another) that the person does understand and is genuinely saved, then they are baptized into the Church and accepted as members into the church. My nephew goes to one of these churches, and after responding to the "sinners prayer" he was baptized and became a member of that church after 8 weeks.

So the characterization you offer does not fit all (in my area most) who would implement such methods. That does not mean that it doesn't happen, but it does illustrate that the method is not produced of bad theology but rather misused through bad theology.

I suggest that your experience with the "sinners prayer" has tainted your perception of others who use the method (you presume the method unbiblical because in those churches you have been a member, it was used unbiblically). And the reverse may be true for me (I presume it biblical because churches I have been in do not take those liberties you describe).

 

[Revmitchell]

There is much truth in what you posted above, but I tend to think/believe bad theology produces bad methods. My case in point.

Here where I live, most would be classified as five point Arminians. They think you can lose your salvation easier than your car keys. I listened closely to an altar call one morning a while back. After a few minutes of no one coming forward, the pastor then asked if anyone would want to be remembered in their prayers, and if yes, just raise their hand. A few did this, and the pastor then said that God may honor that raising of their hands somewhere down the road. I was thinking 'huh?' That's works, plain and simple.

So, many have come forward and prayed after many minutes of begging during an altar call only to be 'back out' in no time, and they said they backslid/fell from grace. What did they fall from? Their own steadfastness. So bad theology leads to bad methods.

I understand, however let's not broad brush the foolish behavior of that guy on everyone who engages in that method. It would just be better for Calvinists, to include Platt, to just be up front and admit that the criticism leveled against it is grounded in your own theology and not grounded in the method itself. I find that a bit disingenuous.

 

[Revmitchell]

At my Grandmothers funeral her minister gave an altar call?... Well that was her Baptist Church but an altar call at a funeral?... Brother Glen

Were there anyone in the audience who was lost? If they left the funeral and died shortly thereafter would they go to hell?

 

[SovereignGrace]

I understand,

Good!

however let's not broad brush the foolish behavior of that guy on everyone who engages in that method.

I did not do that my Brother. I gave you an example of how some do it...not all.

It would just be better for Calvinists, to include Platt, to just be up front and admit that the criticism leveled against it is grounded in your own theology and not grounded in the method itself.

This is not solely grounded in Calvinists and Calvinism. I have always been against the method of begging people to come up front and praying to receive Christ. Even when I was in the free will camp, I was against that method.

Granted, how you and others do it may not be anywhere close to how they do it. Could you type out an example of how you issue the altar call?

I find that a bit disingenuous.

Not one bit was I being disingenuous. Just giving you an example of what I have witnessed many times.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Were there anyone in the audience who was lost? If they left the funeral and died shortly thereafter would they go to hell?

Funerals are one place where the altar call should never be given. People are grief stricken over the loss of a loved one and may come forward with a worldly sorrow and not a Godly sorrow. They say they are saved, and yet they live contrary to the Christian walk afterwards.

 

[Revmitchell]

I have always been against the method of begging people to come up front and praying to receive Christ.

Your characterization here tells me this is more than just sharing of hyour experience.

 

[kyredneck]

Were there anyone in the audience who was lost? If they left the funeral and died shortly thereafter would they go to hell?

You're a preacher, supposedly. Do you offer Christ to everyone you meet Johnny on the spot? Before leaving any public place like a theater or a restaurant do you shout out an invitation to come to Christ? If any "lost" that were there left and died shortly thereafter would they go to hell? Would their blood be on your hands?

Even more pertinent, did RYR leave lost because Christ never offered him Christ? But instead directed him to the law which EVERYBODY HERE KNOWS has zilch to do with standing in the final judgment and "going to heaven"?

 

[kyredneck]

At my Grandmothers funeral her minister gave an altar call?

I've known some that actually requested their funerals to be a sermon directed at family members but don't recall an altar call ever been given.

 

[kyredneck]

I have heard it said that because it was Mark that made the statement of Jesus loving the RYR, possibly the RYR was Mark and that is why it is added in that account of the RYR. Mark as in John Mark in Acts.

Never heard that before percho, but I guess it's possible.

Doesn't Jesus show the RYR that he will not continue to keep the law, in that, he will not continue to love God with all his heart, in that, he will not forsake all?

No. RYR asked, "What lack I yet?" Christ answered, "If you would be perfect, sell all, give to the poor, and come follow me". That's what Christ and His disciples did, give to the poor. There's no question that Christ was giving one of His exactly the lesson he needed at this moment, no doubt preparing him to realize how useless his wealth soon would be.

RYR not only loved his riches, but he had been taught all his life that it was unlawful to give all his riches away:

“We need scarcely here recall the almost extravagant language in which Rabbinism describes the miseries of poverty; Many sayings might here be quoted. It was worse than all the plagues of Egypt put together (Babha B. 116 a); than all other miseries (Betsah 32 b); the worst affliction that could befall a man (Shem. R. 31).] we can understand his feelings without that.....Rabbinism had never asked this; if it demanded almsgiving, it was in odious boastfulness; To make a merit of giving up riches for Christ is, surely, the Satanic caricature of the meaning of His teaching.] while it was declared even unlawful to give away all one's possessions [a Arach. viii.4.], at most, only a fifth of them might be dedicated. [b Kethub. 50 a.]” ..... Life & Times, Edersheim

 

[DHK]

Never heard that before percho, but I guess it's possible.



No. RYR asked, "What lack I yet?" Christ answered, "If you would be perfect, sell all, give to the poor, and come follow me". That's what Christ and His disciples did, give to the poor. There's no question that Christ was giving one of His exactly the lesson he needed at this moment, no doubt preparing him to realize how useless his wealth soon would be.

RYR not only loved his riches, but he had been taught all his life that it was unlawful to give all his riches away:

“We need scarcely here recall the almost extravagant language in which Rabbinism describes the miseries of poverty; Many sayings might here be quoted. It was worse than all the plagues of Egypt put together (Babha B. 116 a); than all other miseries (Betsah 32 b); the worst affliction that could befall a man (Shem. R. 31).] we can understand his feelings without that.....Rabbinism had never asked this; if it demanded almsgiving, it was in odious boastfulness; To make a merit of giving up riches for Christ is, surely, the Satanic caricature of the meaning of His teaching.] while it was declared even unlawful to give away all one's possessions [a Arach. viii.4.], at most, only a fifth of them might be dedicated. [b Kethub. 50 a.]” ..... Life & Times, Edersheim

Then the law had to be broken, for it was a law of man and not of God. They were to leave their false religion of Judaism and follow Christ. They no longer would be Israelites but rather followers of Christ. At first they would be called people of that "Way," and then later "Christians." This was not Judaism.

What about Peter and Andrew? Did they also break the law?
Matthew 4:19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.
20 And they straightway left their nets, and followed him.
--They left everything behind and followed Christ.

And later Jesus called James and John:
Matthew 4:21 And going on from thence, he saw other two brethren, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and he called them.
22 And they immediately left the ship and their father, and followed him.
--They left their father holding the nets himself. They would no longer help in the family business of fishing. They followed Christ instead, leaving all behind.

So did Levi (or Matthew), who left all and followed Jesus.
Luke 5:27 And after these things he went forth, and saw a publican, named Levi, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he said unto him, Follow me.
28 And he left all, rose up, and followed him.
--He left all that money just sitting there, and followed Jesus. Was he breaking the law. Jesus condoned him not condemned him.

 

[tyndale1946]

I've known some that actually requested their funerals to be a sermon directed at family members but don't recall an altar call ever been given.

My dad who was a PB deacon was very upset that it happened as no one requested that to be done and as in the PB Church I have never seen an altar call given at a funeral... In our church an altar call was if you wanted to take up your cross and follow Jesus come forth and let your wishes be known and the church will wait on you... That was our way and I'm sure there are different ways in different churches and believes... Brother Glen