Was the world created millions and millions of years ago, part 2?

[Marcia]

Posted by Thinkingstuff
I believe Moses was inspired but I don't think he was dictated to apart from the law. Which God wrote himself. When the Holy Spirit inspires you or myself he uses our faculties and abilities. Do you honestly believe that David was thinking of the crusifixtion when he wrote psalm 22? Or do you think we was expressing his experience? I believe the latter and God used that and inspired David to say it that way to prophesy about Jesus. See the difference?

The thread was closed before I could answer the above.

What is your point? That Genesis was not inspired by the Holy Spirit? I believe in verbal plenary inspiration, and I hope you know what that is. :smilewinkgrin:

So is Gen 1 just Moses' opinion of how the world was made? That's what you made it sound like in the post I had responded to before you posted the above.

How about Ex. 20:11?
For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

or Ex 31:17?
It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed

The Biblical support for 6 literal days of creation is overwhelming and imo, irrefutable.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Can we see some definitions of the following:

1. verbal plenary inspiration

2.6 literal days of creation

Thank you.

 

[Marcia]

Can we see some definitions of the following:

1. verbal plenary inspiration

2.6 literal days of creation

Thank you.

Sure.

While there are different views as to what extent the Bible is inspired, there can be no doubt that the Bible itself claims that every word in every part of the Bible comes from God (1 Corinthians 2:12-13; 2 Timothy 3:16-17). This view of the Scriptures is often referred to as “verbal plenary” inspiration. What that means is that the inspiration extends to the very words themselves—not just concepts or ideas—and that the inspiration extends to all parts of Scripture and all subject matters of Scripture (plenary inspiration). There are some people who believe only parts of the Bible are inspired, or only the thoughts or concepts that deal with religion are inspired, but these views of inspiration fall short of what the Bible itself claims. Full verbal plenary inspiration is an essential characteristic of the Word of God.

The extent of inspiration can be clearly seen in 2 Timothy 3:16, “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” This verse tells us that God inspired all Scripture and that it is profitable to us. It is not just the parts of the Bible that deal with religious doctrines that are inspired, but each and every word from Genesis to Revelation. Because it is inspired by God, the Scriptures are therefore authoritative when it comes to establishing doctrine, and sufficient for teaching man how be in a right relationship with God. . . .<more>...

SOURCE
http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-inspired.html

God so moved the authors of Scripture that the resulting product was the Word of God written, totally without error in the autographs, in every area including theology, history, geography, and science.

An Inductive case for verbal inspiration:

• Demonstrate the relative historical reliability of the gospel records.
  • Bibliographical test - Are there enough copies to reconstruct the originals?
  • Internal test - Does the author disqualify himself by contradictions or known factual errors?
  • External test - Do other historical materials confirm or deny the author's testimony?
• Note the claims of Christ to Deity recorded in the gospels.
• Verify the claims deductively by eliminating unsatisfactory explanations (not covered here).
• Therefore, since Christ is God, His teaching on bibliology is authoritative.

SOURCE
http://www.xenos.org/classes/papers/vpi.htm

 

[Marcia]

More:

Verbal Plenary Inspiration" means "God the Holy Spirit so supernaturally directed the human writers of Scripture that, without waiving their intelligence, their individuality, their personal feelings, their literary style, or any other human factor of expression, His Complete and Coherent Message to mankind was recorded with perfect accuracy in the original languages of Scripture: the very words bearing the Authority of Divine Authorship."


So "Verbal" means, "the Bible in its original languages, from first to last (Autograph), is an exact record of the Mind and Will of God as He intended it to be."

So "Plenary" means, "the entire text of the Bible is equally from God, but not necessarily equally-important."
So "Inspiration" means, 2Tim3:16's "God-breathed" (theopneustos): just as God breathed into Adam's nostrils AFTER MAKING HIS BODY and that made Adam EXHALE and thus become a living soul, so also God's breathing of the Word into the Scripture writers produced an 'exhale' of Canon, without waiving any of their own personal attributes.

SOURCE
http://www.geocities.com/brainout1/VPI.htm

A literal day means it's not metaphorical day or a figure of speech day, but a day with a morning and an evening, such as 2 days from now will be Friday.

 

[Grasshopper]

More:

SOURCE
http://www.geocities.com/brainout1/VPI.htm

A literal day means it's not metaphorical day or a figure of speech day, but a day with a morning and an evening, such as 2 days from now will be Friday.

Again, how do you have a literal morning and evening without a sun?

For those who would like to spend the time, here is a helpful debate presenting both sides (the entire debate can be found in 10 minute segments): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNuHuG517lI&feature=PlayList&p=E0190D9456365346&index=0&playnext=1

 

[Revmitchell]

Again light was divided from the darkness and that was the first day:

Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

 

[Grasshopper]

Again light was divided from the darkness and that was the first day:

Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

You didn't answer the question. So heres another, what is the source of the light in those verses?

 

[Revmitchell]

You didn't answer the question. So heres another, what is the source of the light in those verses?

I did,or rather scripture answers the question pretty clearly. The source is unknown and irrelevant.

 

[Ed Edwards]

1 Corinthians 2:10-13 (ESV):
these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.


Why do spiritual words taught by the Spirit to the spirit have to be Literal 24-hours days? What is wrong with 48-hour-days (the earth is round you know)?

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (ESV):
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work

I think 'man of God' means 'human of God' is just as spiritual an understanding as the 'male of God'.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

The thread was closed before I could answer the above.

What is your point? That Genesis was not inspired by the Holy Spirit? I believe in verbal plenary inspiration, and I hope you know what that is. :smilewinkgrin:

So is Gen 1 just Moses' opinion of how the world was made? That's what you made it sound like in the post I had responded to before you posted the above.

How about Ex. 20:11?
For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

or Ex 31:17?
It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed

The Biblical support for 6 literal days of creation is overwhelming and imo, irrefutable.

Be honest Marcia does your quote of what I said previously say anywhere that I don't believe in the inspiration of the bible? If you think thats the case then you missed my point. I was commenting on how the bible is inspired. Do you believe the bible was dictated or inspired? Two different things. I used David's psalm 22 as an example.

I'm not nearly as educated as you are Marcia. I'm just an uneducated dweeb and using large words like Verbal Plenary Inspiration are above my kindergarden level education. How ever if I were to take a guess Let me see...

Pleny sunct caeli et terra in gloria tua or Heaven and earth are full of your glory I can summize from my ignorant mind that Plenary means Heavenly; verbal means spoken and inspiration means well inspiriation (I don't know the deffinition because I'm dumb) So inspiriation from heavenly spoken words? Did I get it? Am I right? :laugh:

So are you saying Heavenly dictation or inspiration? Or is dictation, inspiration to you?

As far as the exodus quote I could say God is using the principle laid out in the creation story to enforce or elucidate a command for rest on the sabbath.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

More:

SOURCE
http://www.geocities.com/brainout1/VPI.htm

A literal day means it's not metaphorical day or a figure of speech day, but a day with a morning and an evening, such as 2 days from now will be Friday.

I like my definition better it matches the words. I can't make the words fit all those meanings. I'm uneducated remember.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

1 Corinthians 2:10-13 (ESV):
these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.


Why do spiritual words taught by the Spirit to the spirit have to be Literal 24-hours days? What is wrong with 48-hour-days (the earth is round you know)?

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (ESV):
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work

I think 'man of God' means 'human of God' is just as spiritual an understanding as the 'male of God'.

OH thats what you meant! Your link didn't work. But its a good point.

 

[Me4Him]

I did,or rather scripture answers the question pretty clearly. The source is unknown and irrelevant.

Ge 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

On the "New Earth" there won't be a "sun" to light the world, the "Spirit of God" is the light.

I'd said this was the light source prior to the sun being created.

Plants/Trees were created on the "third day", but the Sun wasn't created until the fourth day, and they require light to grow.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Ge 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

On the "New Earth" there won't be a "sun" to light the world, the "Spirit of God" is the light.

I'd said this was the light source prior to the sun being created.

Plants/Trees were created on the "third day", but the Sun wasn't created until the fourth day, and they require light to grow.

So your contention is that God himself was the source of light (which I believe he is) Yet he provided no other sources from which the light came. In that case how was their darkness since God was present? Light dispells the darkness. So there couldn't be light then Darkness if God was the source of light and present.

 

[Grasshopper]

I did,or rather scripture answers the question pretty clearly. The source is unknown and irrelevant.

In other words, you can't answer either question.

So we had literal mornings and evenings without a sun. Yet our 24 hours, mornings, and evenings today require a sun.

 

[Marcia]

Again, how do you have a literal morning and evening without a sun?

I explained that on the other thread, and have explained it at least 3 times on the BB before.

God created light before the sun, so there was light. God does not need the sun to have light - it is a put down to the sun gods, and shows God's power over his creation.

If he had created the sun right off, it would give the sun primacy and also look like God needed the sun to create light.

 

[Marcia]

Be honest Marcia does your quote of what I said previously say anywhere that I don't believe in the inspiration of the bible? If you think thats the case then you missed my point. I was commenting on how the bible is inspired. Do you believe the bible was dictated or inspired? Two different things. I used David's psalm 22 as an example.

I'm not nearly as educated as you are Marcia. I'm just an uneducated dweeb and using large words like Verbal Plenary Inspiration are above my kindergarden level education. How ever if I were to take a guess Let me see...

Pleny sunct caeli et terra in gloria tua or Heaven and earth are full of your glory I can summize from my ignorant mind that Plenary means Heavenly; verbal means spoken and inspiration means well inspiriation (I don't know the deffinition because I'm dumb) So inspiriation from heavenly spoken words? Did I get it? Am I right? :laugh:

So are you saying Heavenly dictation or inspiration? Or is dictation, inspiration to you?

As far as the exodus quote I could say God is using the principle laid out in the creation story to enforce or elucidate a command for rest on the sabbath.

Well, I'm sensing sarcasm here. I do not believe in verbal dictation, that's why I said verbal plenary inspiration and posted 3 explanations of it.

I can't get from you whether you believe the Genesis account is historical narrative or a mythlike story.

 

[Marcia]

I like my definition better it matches the words. I can't make the words fit all those meanings. I'm uneducated remember.

Who said you were uneducated? I could not care less whether you are or not.

 

[Revmitchell]

In other words, you can't answer either question.

So we had literal mornings and evenings without a sun. Yet our 24 hours, mornings, and evenings today require a sun.

Say it all you want but both questions were answered clearly. You however keep insisting a 24 hour period requires the sun. It in fact does not. Ever been to Alaska (as if I really need to give an example). Anyway light existed before the sun, dark existed and was divided form the light. This was the first day. This division occurred without the sun. Time moves irregardless of the sun.

 

[OldRegular]

You didn't answer the question. So heres another, what is the source of the light in those verses?

What difference does it make. Scripture says there was light, that should be sufficient for Christians.