Was the world created millions and millions of years ago, part 2?

[Pastor Larry]

I agreed that yom on the context of the creation story in genesis is to be understood as 1 day as in Canaan or Egypt (not Alaska or Antartica).

You said it was non-literal (see above). A day in Alaska or Antarctica is the same length as a day in Canaan or Egypt. The world doesn't spin at a faster or slower rate there (though the distance traveled is smaller so it is technically rotating slower). The RPMs, so to speak, are the same.

You're saying that they all start off with the same truth and the other two documents embelish it. I say they all start off with the same culture and try to get their meanings across in the same manner.

They don't start with the same culture though. ANE culture is not monolithic. And you are assuming they are using the same manner to get their meaning across. I don't think you can assume that. Scripture is of a different character than these other documents, something that Enns and others do not fully reckon with.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

You said it was non-literal (see above). A day in Alaska or Antarctica is the same length as a day in Canaan or Egypt. The world doesn't spin at a faster or slower rate there (though the distance traveled is smaller so it is technically rotating slower). The RPMs, so to speak, are the same.

They don't start with the same culture though. ANE culture is not monolithic. And you are assuming they are using the same manner to get their meaning across. I don't think you can assume that. Scripture is of a different character than these other documents, something that Enns and others do not fully reckon with.

You're not following at all.

1) I'm supporting the non literal view of Genesis
2) You're right about Yom in the context of the story it means 24 hour day as it is observed in Canaan and Egypt. BTW from an observer in Antartica who thinks the world is flat would say a day last a very long time because the sun doesn't fully set for some time.
3) My next task was to show similarity in literature from the same culture.
4) They are the same culture. Abraham was from where? Ur. Which is where? Summeria. The Enuma Elish is from where? The Atrahasis is from Where? Summeria. Same culture of People. Tradition holds that Moses wrote the Torah where the book of Genesis is found or Bereshit as its called in the Tanakh. Same culture group.

 

[canadyjd]

Originally Posted by Thinkingstuff
I'm saying before, at the latest, 12,000 ago man was primarily hunter/gather in loosely connected bands of people. Not really civilized.

Will you please answer my question directly?

Do you believe human beings "evolved" from an ancestor that is common to humans and chimps and/or other apes?

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

1) I'm supporting the non literal view of Genesis...My next task was to show similarity in literature from the same culture.....They are the same culture. Abraham was from where? Ur. Which is where? Summeria. The Enuma Elish is from where? The Atrahasis is from Where? Summeria. Same culture of People. Tradition holds that Moses wrote the Torah where the book of Genesis is found or Bereshit as its called in the Tanakh. Same culture group.

Do you believe the Enuma Elish and the Atrahasis have the same authority and/or historical accuracy as what Moses wrote?

Do you believe God inspired Moses to write the truth of the origins of the earth and humanity?

Do you believe Moses just put together a bunch of stories that he had heard in his "cultural setting" and attached God's name to them?

peace to youraying:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Will you please answer my question directly?

Do you believe human beings "evolved" from an ancestor that is common to humans and chimps and/or other apes?

peace to youraying:

I honestly don't know. I do know that God created man. And there is a special case in the creation of man. In what method? I don't know. There are genetic similarities but thats not a conclusive observation.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Do you believe the Enuma Elish and the Atrahasis have the same authority and/or historical accuracy as what Moses wrote?

Do you believe God inspired Moses to write the truth of the origins of the earth and humanity?

Do you believe Moses just put together a bunch of stories that he had heard in his "cultural setting" and attached God's name to them?

peace to youraying:

Thats a non sequitur.

 

[canadyjd]

Originally Posted by canadyjdDo you believe the Enuma Elish and the Atrahasis have the same authority and/or historical accuracy as what Moses wrote?

Do you believe God inspired Moses to write the truth of the origins of the earth and humanity?

Do you believe Moses just put together a bunch of stories that he had heard in his "cultural setting" and attached God's name to them?

Thats a non sequitur.

You are comparing the bible to these other writings. You are using these writings to say..."see, people in that culture didn't write in a literal sense, so the bible isn't to be taken literally either".

The questions are reasonable considering your use of these writings in your argument.

Please answer the questions.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

Originally Posted by canadyjd Do you believe human beings "evolved" from an ancestor that is common to humans and chimps and/or other apes?

I honestly don't know.....

You honestly don't know if human beings evolved from a common ancestor to the apes or not?

Do you understand the ramifications of the belief that human beings evolved from a common ancestor to the apes? Do you understand the ramifications of the belief that Adam and Eve were not real people, and/or not the first couple?

peace to youraying:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

You are comparing the bible to these other writings. You are using these writings to say..."see, people in that culture didn't write in a literal sense, so the bible isn't to be taken literally either".

The questions are reasonable considering your use of these writings in your argument.

Please answer the questions.

peace to youraying:

Its not because they have nothing to do with authority. Which is a different topic. I saying they are similar literature.

for instance You can read a text book on the kingdoms of Israel. but that has nothing to do with whether you consider it as authoritative as the bible. You may compare it to 1and 2 Kings or 1 and 2 Chronicles because they are both historical accounts but there is no comparison as with regards to authority or inspiration of God.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

[/I]

You honestly don't know if human beings evolved from a common ancestor to the apes or not?

Do you understand the ramifications of the belief that human beings evolved from a common ancestor to the apes? Do you understand the ramifications of the belief that Adam and Eve were not real people, and/or not the first couple?

peace to youraying:

I understand the ramifications of believing whether or not God created human beings. In what manner is irrelevant.

 

[canadyjd]

Its not because they have nothing to do with authority. Which is a different topic. I saying they are similar literature.

It has everthing to do with inspiration and authority. If there is no difference between these writings and the bible, then all we have are 6.5 billion opinions about the origins of human beings.

peace to youraying:

 

[Pastor Larry]

You're not following at all.

I think I am following just fine here.

1) I'm supporting the non literal view of Genesis

Yes, I know. That is a major problem.

2) You're right about Yom in the context of the story it means 24 hour day as it is observed in Canaan and Egypt. BTW from an observer in Antartica who thinks the world is flat would say a day last a very long time because the sun doesn't fully set for some time.

But the day is still roughly 24 hours. It isn't longer than that or shorter than that.

3) My next task was to show similarity in literature from the same culture.

I realize that.

4) They are the same culture. Abraham was from where? Ur. Which is where? Summeria. The Enuma Elish is from where? The Atrahasis is from Where? Summeria. Same culture of People. Tradition holds that Moses wrote the Torah where the book of Genesis is found or Bereshit as its called in the Tanakh. Same culture group.

They're not really the same culture though. Yes, ANE cultures have some similarities to be sure, just like Western culture does today. But the culture of Western Europe is different than the culture of North America, even though it is more similar to NA than to China, for instance. I think you are flattening out some contours illegitimately.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

It has everthing to do with inspiration and authority. If there is no difference between these writings and the bible, then all we have are 6.5 billion opinions about the origins of human beings.

peace to youraying:

Again your argument doesn't follow because you have the wrong premise. Let me give you an example

What type of literature does Emily Dickenson write?

What type of literature is the Song of Solomon?

Which one is authoritative?

Both are poetic

There is no argument that the bible is authoritative.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I think I am following just fine here.

Yes, I know. That is a major problem.

But the day is still roughly 24 hours. It isn't longer than that or shorter than that.

I realize that.

They're not really the same culture though. Yes, ANE cultures have some similarities to be sure, just like Western culture does today. But the culture of Western Europe is different than the culture of North America, even though it is more similar to NA than to China, for instance. I think you are flattening out some contours illegitimately.

Not so. You can ask a historian if you like. You notice I'm not comparing Biblical literature to Greek writings. or Chinese writings. The fact that Abraham comes from Summeria shows he's of the same people group. And though God seperated him out he still holds certain cultural values and norms. Just like the Hebrews held to some Egyptian norms after leaving the country. Compare for instance the term for Seraphim that guard the throne of God and the goddess Seraph that guards Pharohs throne. Cultural similarities. Now do I believe there are Seraphim that hover over God's throne? Yes. do I believe there is a goddess Seraph? No. But I see how the term may be derived at.

Also you sould a little smug here:

Yes, I know. That is a major problem.

when the truth is its not a problem for me. You may perseve it to be one but its not.
You obviously are considering the argument with the 24 hour deal because a person who lives in antartica and never left may consider the fact that a day may last three months. You assume their knowledge of the universe is equivelant to ours it is not and obvious by their statements.

 

[canadyjd]

I understand the ramifications of believing whether or not God created human beings. In what manner is irrelevant.

No, it is not irrelevant.

Either you believe God created human beings in the way He has revealed to us, or you believe the theories of men.

Which do you believe?

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

Again your argument doesn't follow because you have the wrong premise. Let me give you an example

What type of literature does Emily Dickenson write?

What type of literature is the Song of Solomon?

Which one is authoritative?

Both are poetic

There is no argument that the bible is authoritative.

But I don't consider Emily Dickerson's writings to be revelation from the Creator God as I do Song of Solomon.

That God condescended to us by using things we can understand doesn't mean what He revealed wasn't truth.

peace to youraying:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

No, it is not irrelevant.

Either you believe God created human beings in the way He has revealed to us, or you believe the theories of men.

Which do you believe?

peace to youraying:

It is. And your question is ridiculous. Its like asking a defendant at court to answer only yes or no to this question: "Do you still beat your wife?" If you answer yes you're obviously in trouble If you answer no then the assumption is you use to beat your wife. I refuse to answer questions like that. I believe God revealed to us that he created us. Do I believe he picked up clay and molded it into man? Well let me ask you this "have you ever looked at the chemical composition of clay and compare it to your chemical composition?"

 

[Thinkingstuff]

But I don't consider Emily Dickerson's writings to be revelation from the Creator God as I do Song of Solomon.

That God condescended to us by using things we can understand doesn't mean what He revealed wasn't truth.

peace to youraying:

But they are both poetic literature and can be compared on that level. I don't look for revelation from God in Emily I do see how the meter is and I can compare that meter is compared with Song of songs which was my point and why your argument doesn't follow.

 

[canadyjd]

I believe God revealed to us that he created us.

He does much more than that. God revealed how He created us and a common ancestor with chimps wasn't mentioned.

Do I believe he picked up clay and molded it into man? Well let me ask you this "have you ever looked at the chemical composition of clay and compare it to your chemical composition?"

You seem to have an aversion to speaking plainly.

I will answer your question plainly. Do I believe God created man from the dust of the ground and breathed life into him? Yes I do.

Have I ever looked at the chemical composition of clay and compared it to my chemical composition? No, I have not.

Will you answer those two questions plainly, yes or no?

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

But they are both poetic literature and can be compared on that level. I don't look for revelation from God in Emily I do see how the meter is and I can compare that meter is compared with Song of songs which was my point and why your argument doesn't follow.

The reason my question is valid is because you are doing much more than simply comparing literature.

You are making assumptions about the accuracy of the bible based on non-biblical literature of the same era.

I am stunned that you don't see the difference. Or maybe you do see exactly what you are doing but won't admit it plainly for some reason.

peace to youraying: