Was There Alcohol in the Wine...

[webdog]

I am not a banned member if that is what you are implying, webdog.

I didn't imply anything...I just stated I hoped a banned BB member wouldnt' stoop to such lows.

 

[npetreley]

I think i found my answer, in post #29 of this thread by webdog.

thanks.:wavey:

Do you agree? Do you think it's the same symbolism as used in the Lord's Supper?

I think it could be true. MacArthur pointed out a verse where wine is equated with salvation. I don't have the link handy or I'd post it.

 

[GLipscomb48]

Boiled grape juice is not wine...it's boiled grape juice. It would also have the consistancy of jelly, and even mixed with water (which would have contaminants in it) would not be pure.

Wanna try again?

Isaiah records that the new wine is found in the grape, hence grape juice is wine in the grape. Boiled grape juice is nothing but the new wine boiled to kill the yeast.

 

[webdog]

Boy, i turn my back for a couple hours and look what happens! 3 pages of, well, no discussion of the OP! I guess i'm really not too suprised...

Well, what did the wine in the drink offering represent? Personally, I think it represents JOY...but I really want to find out what others think. I think i'll hit the commentaries tonite and do my own digging ...

Like all BB threads dealing with alcohol, you have to sift through the posts to find an answer. I gave what I thought to be the correct answer.

 

[webdog]

Isaiah records that the new wine is found in the grape, hence grape juice is wine in the grape. Boiled grape juice is nothing but the new wine boiled to kill the yeast.

...and yet you can get drunk off of new wine. Hmmmm....

Like I said, boiled juice turns into jelly. You don't drink jelly.

 

[npetreley]

Isaiah records that the new wine is found in the grape

Actually, Isaiah says "as new wine is found in the cluster". But you already knew that, since you did the research into the old threads.

 

[dan e.]

I'm going to start copying and pasting.

 

[GLipscomb48]

...and yet you can get drunk off of new wine. Hmmmm....

Like I said, boiled juice turns into jelly. You don't drink jelly.

One cannot get drunk off of new wine. The Bible does not indicate that at all.

As to boiled juice turning into jelly, that is not true. Other ingredients have to be added to the juice to make it gel.

 

[npetreley]

I didn't imply anything...I just stated I hoped a banned BB member wouldnt' stoop to such lows.

It would be easy for the monitors or webmasters to sort out, since it's likely that anyone who tried such a thing would be accessing the boards from the same IP address. I could be wrong, but I seem to remember someone got banned permanently because the BB administrators determined he was logging in with multiple accounts from the same IP address and didn't have a reasonable explanation for it.

 

[npetreley]

As to boiled juice turning into jelly, that is not true. Other ingredients have to be added to the juice to make it gel.

No, what you say is not true. You CAN add pectin to make it gel faster, but grapes have plenty of natural pectin in them. I've made grape jelly without adding anything. In fact, I boiled it too long once and it turned into grape candy.

 

[dan e.]

oh glipscomb....as if you probably can't guess anyone's response to any of the points you make? ! This is usually how it works....I can make a point and with a 99% accuracy guess what you will respond with. You should also know what anyone will respond. Did you even answer the OP? What do you think the drink offering symbolized? I suggested the same as the Lord's Supper....what do you think?

By the way...I can guess that it symbolizes the same as the wine with the Lord's Supper and still be saved, right?

 

[dan e.]

No, what you say is not true. You CAN add pectin to make it gel faster, but grapes have plenty of natural pectin in them. I've made grape jelly without adding anything. In fact, I boiled it too long once and it turned into grape candy.

That sounds like a fun science project.

 

[GLipscomb48]

I have a brother who is a wine maker and he boils his grape juice before he makes the wine. He then adds his own yeasts after the juice cools down.

So boiling of grape juice without it turning to jelly is done. Perhaps you boiled your juice too long?

 

[npetreley]

That sounds like a fun science project.

:laugh: Yeah. I went through a phase in my 20s (ancient history) where I made a lot of things on my own. I picked fresh fruit and made jellies and jams. I never, ever added pectin.

I also shook a container of heavy cream until it turned into butter. I don't recommend trying that one unless you have strong wrists and lots of patience. I only did it twice, and the second time only because I forgot how annoying it was the first time.

 

[npetreley]

I have a brother who is a wine maker and he boils his grape juice before he makes the wine. He then adds his own yeasts after the juice cools down.

So boiling of grape juice without it turning to jelly is done. Perhaps you boiled your juice too long?

No, I boiled it with the intention of making jelly. I made candy when I accidentally boiled it too long.

Yes, you can boil it to kill the natural yeast and then add your own yeast. You can also add sulfur dioxide to kill the natural yeast and then add your own yeast when the sulfur dioxide wears off.

Regardless, if you don't add your own yeast, it WILL STILL ferment, and it will do it quickly. There's plenty of yeast and mold in the air. Controlling quality and flavor is the only reason you add your own yeast instead of allowing it to ferment from natural yeast. Either way, it ferments.

 

[dan e.]

:laugh: Yeah. I went through a phase in my 20s (ancient history) where I made a lot of things on my own. I picked fresh fruit and made jellies and jams. I never, ever added pectin.

I also shook a container of heavy cream until it turned into butter. I don't recommend trying that one unless you have strong wrists and lots of patience. I only did it twice, and the second time only because I forgot how annoying it was the first time.

hilarious.

 

[GLipscomb48]

oh glipscomb....as if you probably can't guess anyone's response to any of the points you make? ! This is usually how it works....I can make a point and with a 99% accuracy guess what you will respond with. You should also know what anyone will respond. Did you even answer the OP? What do you think the drink offering symbolized? I suggested the same as the Lord's Supper....what do you think?

By the way...I can guess that it symbolizes the same as the wine with the Lord's Supper and still be saved, right?

The drink offering, I believe, was an acknowledgement that all the blessings of the earth are from God.

 

[Bible-boy]

Josephus lived in the first century and recorded all these accounts. It is not urban legend. Your local library referrence section should have encyclopedia's that show that Josephus did indeed live during that era and was in fact a historian.

As far as no historical evidence, his writings, Columella's, Pliny's, Aristotle's, and others have recorded the ability to preserve fresh grape juice.

So it is not urban legend as you suppose.

My undergraduate degree is a B.A. in Biblical Studies and History of Ideas (a double major). In the History of Ideas we read all (or most) of the great books of the western world. We read primary sources not secondary sources written about the primary sources. We read lots of Aristotle, and Pliny, etc. I do not recall reading about grape juice being preserved for 100 years without fermentation etc. Can you give me the specific reference to Aristotle's or Pliny's works that mention this subject? If so please give me the title, book chapter and/or section numbers, and the paragraph and/or line numbers so I can read this information for myself.

 

[GLipscomb48]

No, I boiled it with the intention of making jelly. I made candy when I accidentally boiled it too long.

Yes, you can boil it to kill the natural yeast and then add your own yeast. You can also add sulfur dioxide to kill the natural yeast and then add your own yeast when the sulfur dioxide wears off.

Regardless, if you don't add your own yeast, it WILL STILL ferment, and it will do it quickly. There's plenty of yeast and mold in the air. Controlling quality and flavor is the only reason you add your own yeast instead of allowing it to ferment from natural yeast. Either way, it ferments.

Columella records putting fresh grape juice in containers and removing all air thereby preserving the juice so it would not ferment. The technology was available to them way back then.

 

[EdSutton]

Yeah. Funny astronomical coincidence how two grape-juicers are suspended, after which two brand new members suddenly appear and state the same arguments.

With all respect, the claimed addresses of these "two brand new members" are nowhere near those of the"two grape-juicers" who have been given a 'vacation', so I suggest this 'implication' is a bit less than honorable, absent any real evidence. And I am not one to particularly take such sides, disagreeing with most at some point, in my posts. So I say a belated "Welcome to the Baptist Board" to these two new posters. Read and follow the BB

and you will probably never have to see

nor have to say, "

!"

Ed