Was this country founded on Christian principles?

[youngmom4]

"Freedom of religion" is good and I support that. But I believe what is being stressed in this country is "freedom from religion" that I do not support. I'm one of those narrow minded baptist that believe Jesus when He said "Iam the way, no one comes to the Father except by Me" I believe this country has been blessed in the past because we acknowledged God, now it is politically incorrect. Adrian Rogers preached a sermon recently (rerun) on Pslams 80 where he parelleled Israel and the U.S., When they believed and worship God He blessed and protected, when they chose to ignore His existance God removed the hedge of protection. Step back and look at this country in the past and look at the present where we are pushing God out of the picture, there is a marked difference. We should not be silent (silence is the same as agreeing). God will hold us responsible. Speaking out is a personal responsibility for each of us, not just the church or the preacher. Even if you feel foolish you should speak out, don't agree with your silence.

:applause: I feel exactly the same! We do have the right to express our religion, and while we do not have a theistic government, that does not mean that we should not expect our leaders to uphold our beliefs. This is the way it was with the founders. They did not force a particular brand of Christianity on anyone, but they did uphold Christian principles while they were in office and many spoke of how important it was to make religion an integral part of society. We're studying John Adams this week, and he is a really good example of this. I'll try to post some of the more interesting quotes when I get a chance. :thumbs:

 

[Allan]

Because of its author. Consulting the letter, although its words are not binding, is beneficial because it gives insight into the thought processes of the time.

Besides, it's not the phrase that we hang on; it's what the phrase means. Separation of church and state is a principle enshrined in the US Constitution (freedom of religion, no religious tests, etc.), even if the phrase isn't.

While this country was not built upon one particular religion but was established in such a way that no one religion would rule it's GOVENMENT (nor vise vers). It IS a fact this nations predominant religion (Christianity) DID play a large role in its creation of principles and moral code AND EVEN who sat in office.
I have placed this a thread a few months back: http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=999090&postcount=59

Here are some references to it. There are more but this should suffice as it is informative but not exhaustive. I cut a couple out that were repeated or if the statement was only limited to "...no cleagy could be a state official.."
http://personal.pitnet.net/primarysources/state.html

Religious Clauses in State Constitutions

Delaware; Article 22 (1776) "Every person who shall be chosen a member of either house, or appointed to any office or place of trust...shall...also make and subscribe the following declaration, to whit:
'I,_____, do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the holy scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration'"

Delaware; Article VIII, Section 9 (1792) "...No clergyman or preacher of the gospel, of any denomination, shall be capable of holding any civil office in this State, or of being a member of either branch of the legislature, while he continues in the exercise of the pastoral or clerical functions."

Georgia; Article VI (1777) "The representatives shall be chosen out of the residents in each county...and they shall be of the Protestant religion..."

Georgia; Article LXII (1777) "No clergyman of any denomination shall be allowed a seat in the legislature."

Maryland; Article XXXII (1776) "...All persons, professing the Christian religion, are equally entitled to protection their religious liberty...the Legislature may, in their discretion, lay a general tax and equal tax, for the support of the Christian religion."

Maryland; Article XXXV (1776) "That no other test or qualification ought to be required...than such oath of support and fidelity to this State...and a declaration of a belief in the Christian religion."

Massachusetts; First Part, Article II (1780) "It is the right as well as the duty of all men in society, publicly, and at stated seasons, to worship the SUPREME BEING, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe..."

Massachusetts; First Part, Article II (1780) "The governor shall be chosen annually; and no person shall be eligible to this office, unless...he shall declare himself to be of the Christian religion."

Massachusetts; Chapter VI, Article I (1780) "[All persons elected to State office or to the Legislature must] make and subscribe the following declaration, viz.
'I,_____, do declare, that I believe the Christian religion, and have firm persuasion of its truth...'"

New Hampshire; Part 1, Article 1, Section 5 (1784) "...the legislature ...authorize ...the several towns ...to make adequate provision at their own expense, for the support and maintenance of public protestant teachers of piety, religion and morality..."

New Hampshire; Part 2, (1784) "[Provides that no person be elected governor, senator, representative or member of the Council] who is not of the protestant religion."

New Jersey; Article XIX (1776) "...no Protestant inhabitant of this Colony shall be denied the enjoyment of any civil right...; all persons, professing a belief in the faith of any Protestant sect...shall be capable of being elected into any office of profit or trust, or being a member of either branch of the Legislature."

North Carolina; Article XXXI (1776) "That no clergyman, or preacher of the gospel, of any denomination, shall be capable of being a member of either the Senate, House of Commons, or Council of State, while he continues in the exercise of the pastoral function,"

North Carolina; Article XXXII (1776) "That no person, who shall deny the being of God or the truth of the Protestant religion, or the divine authority either of the Old or New Testaments,...shall be capable of holding any office or place of trust or profit in the civil department within this State.

Pennsylvania; Declaration of Rights II (1776) "...Nor can any man, who acknowledges the being of a God, be justly deprived or abridged to any civil right as a citizen, on account of his religious sentiments or peculiar mode of religious worship."

Pennsylvania; Frame of Government, Section 10 (1776) "And each member [of the legislature]...shall make and subscribe the following declaration, viz.:
'I do believe in one God, the creator and governor of the universe, the rewarder to the good and the punisher of the wicked. And I do acknowledge the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by Divine inspiration.'"

Pennsylvania; Article IX, Section 4 (1790) "that no person, who acknowledges the being of a God, and a future state of rewards and punishments, shall, on account of his religious sentiments, be disqualified to hold any office or place of trust or profit under this commonwealth."
South Carolina; Article III (1778) "[State officers and privy council to be] all of the Protestant religion."

South Carolina; Article XII (1778) "...no person shall be eligible to a seat in the said senate unless he be of the Protestant religion."

South Carolina; Article XXI (1778) "...no minister of the gospel or public preachers of any religious persuasion, while he continues in the exercise of his pastoral function, and for two years after, shall be eligible either as governor, lieutenant-governor, a member of the senate, house of representatives, or privy council in this State."

South Carolina; Article XXXVIII (1778) "That all persons and religious societies who acknowledge that there is one God, and a future state of rewards and punishments, and that God is publicly to be worshipped, shall be freely tolerated. The Christian Protestant religion shall be deemed...to be the established religion of this State."

Vermont; Declaration of Rights, III (1777) "...nor can any man who professes the protestant religion, be justly deprived or abridged of any civil right, as a citizen, on account of his religious sentiment...; nevertheless, every sect or denomination of people ought to observe the Sabbath, or the Lord's day..."

Vermont; Frame of Government, Section 9 (1777) "And each member [of the legislature],...shall make and subscribe the following declaration, viz.:
'I do believe in one god, the Creator and Governor of the universe, the rewarder of the good and punisher of the wicked. And I do acknowledge the scriptures of the old and new testament to be given by divine inspiration, and own and profess the protestant religion.'"

What is interesting, is that the last state finally revise such wording for who gets a governmental seat was done about 50 or so years ago and it was either N or S Carolina. Did every state have such things in them? No, but that does not dismiss the fact that these were part of our Nations history and state electing process for almost 150 years.

Now, as I said. This Nation was not created to BE A Christian Nation (as in only a christian Nation) but a Nation of the people, by the People, and for the people - and that Nation included religious beliefs since OF the people.

Here are some other quotes from politcal people:
Whoever is avowed enemies of God, I scruple not to call him an enemy to His country. - John Witherspoon, Signer of the Declaration

It is of note that Mr. Witherspoon thought of our country as uniquely 'His' country. Now was he a deist or a christian, you decide:

I shall now conclude my discourse by preaching this Saviour to all who hear me, and entreating you in the most earnest manner to believe in Jesus Christ, for "there is no salvation in any other" [Acts 4:12....] f you are not reconciled to God through Jesus Christ, if you are not clothed with the spotless robe of His righteousness, you must forever perish. - John Witherspoon, Signer of the Declaration

Again Justice Joseph Story explained that because of the First Amendment...

...the whole power over the subject of religion is left exclusively to the State governments to be acted upon according to their own sense of justice and the States constitutions.

Thomas Jefferson had previously confirmed this same scope of power:

I consider the government of the United States [the federal government] as interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions, their doctrines, disciplines, or exercises. This results not only from the provision that no law shall be made respecting the establishment or free exercise of religion [the First Amendment], but from that also which reserves to the States the powers not delegated to the United States [the Tenth Amendment]. Certainly, no power to prescribe any religious exercise or to assume authority in any religious discipline has been delegated to the General [federal] Government. It must then rest with the States.

 

[Allan]

Here are some more tidbits and quotes:

One Nation, Under God

"The man must be bad indeed who can look upon the events of the American Revolution without feeling the warmest gratitude toward the great Author of the Universe whose divine interposition was so frequently manifested in our behalf. And it is my earnest prayer that we may so conduct ourselves as to merit a continuance of those blessings with which we have hitherto been favored." - George Washington
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"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." - U.S. Constitution 1st Amendment
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"I have lived sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And, if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, sir, in the sacred writings, that ‘except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it.;

"I firmly believe this; and I also believe, that, without his concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel;...

"I therefore beg leave to move, that henceforth prayers, imploring the assistance of heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this assembly every morning before we proceed to business: and that one or more of the clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that service." (Benjamin Franklin as quoted by Jared Sparks, The Works of Benjamin Franklin, 1837, pp. 155-56)

Separation of Church and State

"I support the doctrine of separation of church and state as traditionally interpreted to prohibit the establishment of an official national religion. But this does not mean that we should divorce government from any formal recognition of God. To do so strikes a potentially fatal blow at the concept of the divine origin of our rights, and unlocks the door for an easy entry of future tyranny. If Americans should ever come to believe that their rights and freedoms are instituted among men by politicians and bureaucrats, they will no longer carry the proud inheritance of their forefathers, but will grovel before their masters seeking favors and dispensations -- a throwback to the feudal system of the Dark Ages." (Ezra Taft Benson, "Freedom Is Our Heritage," 10 Nov. 1970)
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"When the great work was done and published, I was...struck with amazement. Nothing less than that superintending hand of Providence, that so miraculously carried us through the war... could have brought it about so complete, upon the whole." (Charles Pinckney speaking of the U.S. Constitution, P.L. Ford, ed., Essays on the Constitution, 1892, p. 412)
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Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports... Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principles." - George Washington, Farewell address
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John Jay, the first Chief Justice of the Supreme Court and one of the three men most responsible for the U.S. Constitution stated, ''Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty - as well as the privilege and interest - of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.''
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''Why is it that next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most venerated festival returns on this day? Is it not that in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon the earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity?'' - John Quincy Adams, July 4, 1837 Address
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"God rules this world. It is the duty of nations as well as men to owe their dependence upon the overruling power of God, to confess their sins and transgressions in humble sorrow... and to recognize the sublime truths that those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord." - Abraham Lincoln
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"As nations cannot be rewarded or punished in the next world, so they must be in this. By an inevitable chain of causes and effects, Providence punishes national sins by national calamities." - George Mason, Father of the Bill of Rights
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"The success, which has hitherto attended our united efforts, we owe to the gracious interposition of heaven, and to that interposition let us gratefully ascribe the praise of victory, and the blessings of peace." (George Washington, To the Executives of New Hampshire, November 3, 1789)
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"It is impossible for the man of pious reflection not to perceive in it [the Constitution] a finger of that Almighty hand which has been so frequently and signally extended to our relief in the critical stages of the revolution." (James Madison, The Federalist, No. 37)
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"I now make it my earnest prayer, that God would incline the hearts of the citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to government, to entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another,...and finally, that he would most graciously be pleased to dispose us all, to do justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility and pacific temper of mind, which were the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things, we can never hope to be a happy nation." - George Washington
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"We have staked the whole future of American civilization not upon the power of government -- far from it. We have staked the future of all of our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God." (James Madison, Russ Walton, Biblical Principles of Importance to Godly Christians [New Hampshire: Plymouth Foundation, 1984], p. 361)
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Abraham Lincoln was asked which side God was on in the Civil War. He responded: "I am not at all concerned about that, for I know that the Lord is always on the side of right. But it is my constant anxiety and prayer that I and this nation should be on the Lord’s side." (Abraham Lincoln’s Stories and Speeches, J.B. McClure, ed. [Chicago: Rhodes and McClure Publishing Co., 1896], pp. 185-86)
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"Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." (John Adams, In John R. Howe, Jr.’s, The Changing Political Thought of John Adams [Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1966], p. 185)
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"God, who gave us life, gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are a gift of God?" (Thomas Jefferson, In Love with Eloquence, p. 30)
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"We have grown in numbers, wealth and power as no other nation has ever grown. But we have forgotten God. We have forgotten the gracious hand which preserved us in peace and multiplied and enriched and strengthened us; and we have vainly imagined, in the deceitfulness of our hearts, that all these blessings were produced by some superior wisdom and virtue of our own. Intoxicated with unbroken success, we have become too self-sufficient to feel the necessity of redeeming and preserving grace, too proud to pray to the God that made us!" (Abraham Lincoln, A Proclamation "to designate and set apart a day for National prayer and humiliation.")
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"America, under the smiles of a Divine Providence, the protection of a good government, and the cultivation of manners, morals, and piety, cannot fail of attaining an uncommon degree of eminence, in literature, commerce, agriculture, improvements at home and respectability abroad." - George Washington
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"I thank God that I have lived to see my country independent and free. She may long enjoy her independence and freedom if she will. It depends upon her virtue." (Samuel Adams, Wells, The Life of Samuel Adams, 3:175)

From:
http://www.proconstitution.com/under_god/

 

[youngmom4]

Thanks for the quotes, Allan! :wavey: I have some to post too, once I can see straight again...I just got done writing two different papers. It's off to bed I go! :sleep:

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Those clauses from state constitutions are null and void where they prescribe a religious test for public office in violation of the Constitution of the United States.

See Torcaso v. Watkins, settled by the SCOTUS in 1961.

 

[StefanM]

Those clauses from state constitutions are null and void where they prescribe a religious test for public office in violation of the Constitution of the United States.

According to present constitutional interpretation, yes.

In earlier years, the states had religious tests for state offices without being challenged. Only later did the constitutional regulations become binding on the states.

I have no objection to the assertion that many states were founded as officially "Christian" states. I simply reject the thesis that the US was founded as a "Christian" nation. A union of Christian states, perhaps?

 

[Magnetic Poles]

According to present constitutional interpretation, yes.

In earlier years, the states had religious tests for state offices without being challenged. Only later did the constitutional regulations become binding on the states.

I have no objection to the assertion that many states were founded as officially "Christian" states. I simply reject the thesis that the US was founded as a "Christian" nation. A union of Christian states, perhaps?

The constitutional regulations were always binding on the states...the matter was just not settled case law until rulings were made. The law didn't change...application was just clarified.

 

[StefanM]

The constitutional regulations were always binding on the states...the matter was just not settled case law until rulings were made. The law didn't change...application was just clarified.

Semantics They weren't "binding" in the sense of being enforced.

 

[Alcott]

The constitutional regulations were always binding on the states...the matter was just not settled case law until rulings were made. The law didn't change...application was just clarified.

All that means is the courts can rule one way in one case, another way in another case, and can change "settled case law" for decades or a century, but still not necessarily for all time. Or, to put in another way, we do after all have a government of man, not a government of law. Abortions can be outlawed, then they can't; institutionalized segregation is legal, then it ain't; "affirmative action" is illegal in one case, but it is in almost all other similar cases; interstate commerce articles apply only to interstate transportation, then they apply also to intrastate....... it's man not law, regardless of the merits of any cases involved.

 

[Allan]

Those clauses from state constitutions are null and void where they prescribe a religious test for public office in violation of the Constitution of the United States.

See Torcaso v. Watkins, settled by the SCOTUS in 1961.

Yep, 200 years later. But why such a long wait??

They should have been demeamed unconstitual by those who wrote the constitution, and those same Judges who swore to uphold it. And yet it appears and in fact was not considered to be unconstitutional to them but was upheld as their right for almost 200 years


Personally, I think it is summed up in this which I posted earlier:

Again Justice Joseph Story explained that because of the First Amendment... [He served on the Supreme Court of the United States from 1811 to 1845 , for those who don't know]

...the whole power over the subject of religion is left exclusively to the State governments to be acted upon according to their own sense of justice and the States constitutions.


Thomas Jefferson had previously confirmed this same scope of power:

I consider the government of the United States [the federal government] as interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions, their doctrines, disciplines, or exercises. This results not only from the provision that no law shall be made respecting the establishment or free exercise of religion [the First Amendment], but from that also which reserves to the States the powers not delegated to the United States [the Tenth Amendment]. Certainly, no power to prescribe any religious exercise or to assume authority in any religious discipline has been delegated to the General [federal] Government. It must then rest with the States.

That which is in [ ] I added for clarity.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Yep, 200 years later. But why such a long wait??

They should have been demeamed unconstitual by those who wrote the constitution, and those same Judges who swore to uphold it. And yet it appears the and in fact was not unconstitutional to them but was upheld as their right for almost 200 years

Perhaps a case was just never brought. What case "upheld" such a right in violation of the constitution. There is none. When it finally did come before the court they made the correct decision.

 

[Alcott]

You quote and answer Allan's post and skip mine, bud. I wonder why.

 

[Allan]

Perhaps a case was just never brought. What case "upheld" such a right in violation of the constitution. There is none. When it finally did come before the court they made the correct decision.

First I love you hypothosis :laugh: Purhaps a case was just never brought. The fact a case was NOT brought for that duration of time SHOULD tell you something.

Make the correct decision did they?

It was upheld for about 200 years and then finally in the enlightenment of the 1960's we FINALLY got the right rendering of the Constitution. Apparently, they were cluesless from the beginning of our Nation the Supreme Court Justices, nor the Founding Fathers, Congress, Senete, and Representives, knew anything about these things until 1961, or maybe that they just misinterpreted their own writings. :laugh:

The correct decision was uphelp for almost 200 years of our Nations history.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

The correct decision was uphelp(sic) for almost 200 years of our Nations history.

Again, nothing was upheld. So I suppose you support religious tests for public office. That is obviously counter to the Constitution of the United States.

It amazes me that some Baptists are against one of the historic hallmarks of being Baptist...that is support the complete and total separation of church and state. Thank goodness such views are minority in this country.

 

[Alcott]

One of the historic hallmarks of being Baptist...that is support the complete and total separation of church and state.

Yeah, let's march around the town square absolutely condemning the idea of building inspectors going into churches and telling them the wiring needs replacing or they don't have adequate emergency exits. Churches should never, under any circumstances whatsoever, pay the fee for sanitation or have garbage bins for city pickups. And if a criminal suspect were to run and hide in a church, law enforcement have absolutely no authority to enter that church looking for him, for their government-mandated authority absolutely forbids any contact whatsoever with a church. And it's ridiculously inane for a church to withhold taxes from a staff employee's earnings to pay to the government-- who does church staff work for? the church or the state? Incredibly stupid is ANY contact or relation between a church and any branch of government. Kennedy (not to mention Maggie) was right-- an America where the separation between church and state is ABSOLUTE!!!!

 

[Allan]

Again, nothing was upheld. So I suppose you support religious tests for public office. That is obviously counter to the Constitution of the United States.

Again, The fact a case was NEVER brought for such a duration of time SHOULD tell you something.

Now just so you know, I am NOT contending all the ones I cited and the others I did not cite, did not remain unchanged at all for almost 200 years. Some were changed within 60 or so years to not be so specific but to still maintain at least a religious (deistic) view to speak for those OF religous views. (to remove those of religious views is to remove the main or greater part of our voice in our Nation) Some after 100 years or so did remove the wording to a more secular wording, but most did not suffer a change until the early 1900's and even then the last one to be changed was not until the 1960's. The problem I'm saying is that the Government did not interfere with State policy until the 1960's, and since then it has grown steadily to the controlling of our state, down to our Religious views. It (our government) is becoming that which it intended to remove us from.

It depends on what 'test' means?

It amazes me that some Baptists are against one of the historic hallmarks of being Baptist...that is support the complete and total separation of church and state. Thank goodness such views are minority in this country.

You ignoracne on this point is ASTOUNDING!!!!

Baptists have been against a Church run state and or a State run church, NOT that religious views MUST BE seperate from government. That is stupidity!!

 

[Bro. James]

"Gobbledegook" of some founding fathers:

That G. Washington was an F&AM is readily apparent. He even makes reference to "great author of the heavens", the Masonic GAOTU. George was a deist--not necessarily a follower of Jesus, the Christ, the Son of the Living God. Our first president had others in high places in his fraternity.

Where is Jesus, the Christ, found in any of this? The word: protestant is used. This excludes: Catholics, true Baptists and Mormons--all of whom consider themselves Christian.

Someone is confused.

The word: Christian, has become muddled in the fog of ecumenism. "The DISCIPLES were called Christian first at Antioch." Do we need to define our terms again?

Will the real Christians please stand up.?

Thank the Lord for the freedom of conscience to believe or not believe whatever we think, less anarchy, outside the auspices of a state religion. Curiously, the religion of presidential candidates is an issue to many of the body politic--in a not so subtle way. It seems to make a difference what kind of Christianity one professes.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[Allan]

That G. Washington was an F&AM is readily apparent. He even makes reference to "great author of the heavens", the Masonic GAOTU. George was a deist--not necessarily a follower of Jesus, the Christ, the Son of the Living God. Our first president had others in high places in his fraternity.

Where is Jesus, the Christ, found in any of this? The word: protestant is used. This excludes: Catholics, true Baptists and Mormons--all of whom consider themselves Christian.

Someone is confused.

The word: Christian, has become muddled in the fog of ecumenism. "The DISCIPLES were called Christian first at Antioch." Do we need to define our terms again?

Will the real Christians please stand up.?

Thank the Lord for the freedom of conscience to believe or not believe whatever we think, less anarchy, outside the auspices of a state religion. Curiously, the religion of presidential candidates is an issue to many of the body politic--in a not so subtle way. It seems to make a difference what kind of Christianity one professes.

Selah,

Bro. James

That is the point. This was not created to BE a Christian Nation but it was based on many biblical principles.

G. Washington can not be proven to be a deist. It can be speculated because he didn't bring to much of his beliefs into the forefront. But that does not make him NOT a Christian. I will not say one way or another but the quotes are to show religion was seen as important to be held in our view of Government.

Again, No one is making the statement the Nation was created to BE a Christian Nation.

 

[Bro. James]

Government by Biblical principles?

Jehovah did not allow many gods for Israel. He did allow the Gentiles space to repent their abominations. The flood of Noah and destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah are examples of His longsuffering having a limit.

Jesus,(Jehovah in the flesh), excludes all religions save His-- John 14:6. He does allow space to repent. The majority of the religious world is not Christian.

The point of the religious freedom issue is that the state has not the right to dictate matters of conscience in the realm called religion.

This matter was hotly debated during the writing of the U.S. Constitution. There was not a clear majority on the matter--kind of like abortion. The issue is fairly simple: no tax supported church is allowed. This in effect limits the power of the prevailing religious view, Salt Lake City and Baltimore notwithstanding.

The State has nothing to do with matters of religious conscience. It matters not what form of pagan idolatry Constantine foisted on his banner some 1700 years ago.

Whether G. Washington defined himself as a Deist or not, may be debatable. The fact of his references to GAOTU certainly would certainly add credibility to the argument that he was.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[Magnetic Poles]

You ignoracne on this point is ASTOUNDING!!!!

Ah, the ad hominem attack...the last refuge of one without an argument. Attack the person rather than defend your point. By the way, it is spelled "ignorance". :laugh:

Also, personal attacks are against board rules. I have not attacked you, so simmer down. This is not something to get all emotional over.

Baptists have been against a Church run state and or a State run church, NOT that religious views MUST BE seperate from government. That is stupidity!!

After your last comment, this one is absolutely hilarious.