Was wine in Jesus' day alcoholic?

[Frogman]

Bro. Latterrain,

I am also enjoying this discussion very much. Still I have an issue with your interpretation of Lev. 10.8-10.

vs. 8 speaks to Aaron

vs. 9 speaks as such: "it shall be a statute forever throughout your generations:"

Here is the indicator, the generations of Aaron no longer enjoy the office of the priesthood.

vs. 10 prohibits the use of wine and strong drink (per vs. 8) which says "Do not drink..."

In the communion service, the proper method of which our Lord gave the wine, is not in "drinking."

The result of drinking these are intoxicating. The result of the use of wine in the Lord's Supper is not so.

God bless you in your walk and service to Him.
Bro. Dallas

 

[HankD]

If I am upset laterrain it is because the Word of God often times is misrepresented (yes, I am guilty) unwittingly (for the most part) to be sure, but misrepresented none-the-less.
It is deeper that just abstinence from alcoholic beverages. I have said before that I abstain from alcoholic beverages myself but not because I believe that alcohol is evil in and of itself but because it deeply offends so many brethren.

You quoted Proverbs 31:4.

Proverbs 31:4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:

"it is not for kings to drink wine". "to drink wine" is what is called an infinitive construct. It is two Hebrew words run together SHETU-YAYIN and has the corresponding meaning of "oinopotes" in the Greek Scripture - winebibber or in modern terms, "a king should not be given to wine".

Kings can drink wine it just can't be a constant or habitual thing.

This is born out by the context,

5 Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.

A glass of wine with a meal will not cause one to forget the law, a quart will.
The alcohol in mild natural wine will act to dissolve the fatty acids of digested meat which clog our veins and arteries. In fact, very little or none of the alcohol will precipitate into the blood serum and make it to the brain.
But, if wine offends you , don't do it and neither will I for your sake.

Many have appealed to the OT and the Law to denigrate God's natural medicine, wine.
How about this one from the Law…

Leviticus 7:
22 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
23 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, Ye shall eat no manner of fat, of ox, or of sheep, or of goat.

"Ye shall eat no manner of fat" It took 33 centuries for modern technology to catch up with this directive.

The abundance of fat in our diet probably causes as much bad health and early mortality (if not more) as the abuse of alcohol in the form of obesity, stroke, arteriosclerosis, congestive heart failure and other diseases.

Yet weekly we get a new thread against the evils of alcohol but not a word about fatty foods.

So, why don't we hear about fat consumption and/or gluttony under the umbrella of "things that are bad to eat/drink"? Could it be that we like to ride our hobby horse?

Or, the worst sins are the ones I don't commit.

In the mean time God's creation is belittled as if some things He has made are evil in and of themselves.

The misuse/abuse of God's creation is the evil.

Romans 14:
14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

Again…
Romans 14:
20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

All things are pure (including wine).

To offend the brethren is evil.

And some Christians are offended by the use of grape juice for communion.

HankD

[ October 08, 2002, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

[latterrain77]

Hi HankD. Thank you for your follow up. I humbly disagree with your conclusion (and read) of Prov. 31: 4. The text says that Kings cannot drink wine. I see nothing suggesting the idea that Kings “can” drink wine provided it is not habitual.

It is unquestionable that ANY amount of wine can cloud judgment and thinking to some degree. Even if slight, it's still too much for any King. Furthermore, it is an absolute IMPOSSIBILTY for Christ or Melchezidec to have even the slightest taint of clouded or dulled judgment. To think otherwise is downright ludicrous!

Proverbs 20: 1 says that wine is for those who are NOT WISE. This is an IMPOSSIBLE description of the LORD or Melchesidek. Furthermore, Proverbs 20:1 says STRONG wine is RAGING – meaning that even the weakest wine (whether from it’s potency or it’s volume) is still called a MOCKER. Wine is a deceiver too! All of this plain language adds up to “no dice” when it comes to drinking wine/alcohol (especially so for a king such as Melchisedek as described in the Genesis 14: 18 text, and the LORD as described every where else).

I agree with your thoughts about “animal fat” consumption as described in Lev. 7: 23.

Thank you again HankD. I appreciate your thoughts and follow up on this subject.

latterrain77

 

[latterrain77]

Hi frogman. Thank you again for your follow up. It is much appreciated. The High Priest office never ceased. It simply passed on to each generation and culminated (finished) in Christ.

Christ is the final High Priest, once and for all, and that position vests in him eternally (Heb. 3:1, Heb. 4: 14-15, Heb. 10: 10). The High Priest could not partake of wine/alcohol in the congregation setting. As a result, the Lev. 10: 8-11 non-wine/alcohol standard is still in effect right on up until the end of time.

The priestly office itself was a perpetual one (Exo. 29: 9). The true believers of Christ are kings & priests in perpetuity (Rev. 1: 6, Rev. 5: 10) as foreshadowed in the Exo. 29: 9 text. We obtain this office through CHRIST as a perpetutal event. Thank you again frogman. I much appreciate your thoughts on this subject.

latterrain77

 

[HankD]

Dear latterrain,

I am not going to press this except to say that if and when you should ever get involved in the Hebrew language, you will see that the syntax and idiom of Hebrew is considerably different than that of English.

It would not be fruitful to win a debate (assuming I could) and harm the sensitivity of the brethren. So I will cede (qualified by the above statement about the Hebrew language).

In this you are correct, there is much more about the abuse of wine than the virtue that it has as a natural medicine (for one's stomach's sake) in the Word of God.

Also, you are a rare individual possessing two qualities which usually don't coexist in the same person. Tenacity and graciousness.

Thank you for your kindness.

HankD

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by buzz:

There is a distinct difference between fresh made wine that is not fermented, and that which has been around awhile, and when Jesus made the fresh batch it was not fermented as many believe.[/QB]

Sorry Buzz but when the govenor tasted the wine Jesus made he said this is great wine, I truly believe that it was better than any that could be bought. Jesus did all things well and for His first public miracle do you really think He would have made something that the wedding party would not enjoy.
Murph

 

[buzz]

Do you really think Jesus would drink something that would alter his thinking?

 

[ChristianCynic]

Originally posted by buzz:
Do you really think Jesus would drink something that would alter his thinking?

Yep. We know he slept, and sleep alters one's thinking.

 

[latterrain77]

Originally posted by HankD:

Also, you are a rare individual possessing two qualities which usually don't coexist in the same person. Tenacity and graciousness.

Thank you for your kindness.

HankD

My brother HankD. Thank you so much for your kind and thoughtful comments. I’m deeply moved by them and thankful for your kindness. What a great gift and blessing it is to interact with you on the BaptistBoard. GOD is most merciful.

latterrain77

[ October 09, 2002, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: latterrain77 ]

 

[pastorbill]

Why would God Almighty state clearly in Pro 20:1 "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise"
The King James Version and then 'seemingly' condone it in the NT? also, note the word "wine" is never used in the last supper account it is "the cup" or the "fruit of the vine" the last supper co-incided with the passover at which time no leaven or anything fermented was to be in the house.

 

[Frogman]

the last supper co-incided with the passover at which time no leaven or anything fermented was to be in the house.

1. No leaven--true, this represented sin.

2. anything fermented--The Jewish Passover utilized fermented wine to represent the joy of the relationship they enjoyed with God. Four Cups were required in each household.

These correspond to:
a. bringing out,
b. delivering,
c. redeeming, and
d. taking

Or believed to be connected to the fourfold mention of the the cheif butler's dream (Gen. 40.9-15); or to the four cups of vengeance which God would in the future give the nations to drink (Jer. 25.15; 51.7 Ps. 75.8; 11.16), while the four cups of consolation will be given to Israel, as it is written: "The Lord is the portion of my cup" Ps. 16.5; "My cup runneth over" Ps. 23.5; "I will take the cup of salvation" Ps. 116.13; believed to be two from a second allusion to it in verse 17. (Edersheim, The Temple: Its Ministry and Services. p.185).

"Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars: She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table. She hath sent forth her maidens: she crieth upon the highest places of the city. Whoso is simple, let him turn in hither: as for him that wanteth understanding, she saith unto him, Come, eat of my bread, and drink of the wine which I have mingled." Prov. 9.1-5

God Bless you in your walk and service to Him.
Bro. Dallas

[ October 11, 2002, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: Frogman ]

 

[pastorbill]

Proverbs 23:31-32 "Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder"

When grape juice ferments it becomes lighter in colour. If the Bible tells us not to even look upon it, why should we ingest it?
Remember Eve looked upon the fruit and saw that it was good and then ingested it, and Adam with her.

 

[Frogman]

Remember Eve looked upon the fruit and saw that it was good and then ingested it, and Adam with her.

This is correct; however; this fruit was of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

The fruit discussed here is that of the vine.

"fruit of the vine"

Jesus said in John 15.1: "I am the true vine and my Father is the husbandman."

The vine is speaking of the manifestation of God in the flesh; (1 Tim. 3.16); and the fruit of that vine is spoken of first at Ps. 68.18 and again at Ephesians 4.8.

As long as we stay on the true vine and not wander off onto the fruit of another, (such as the tree of the knowledge of good and evil), The evil occurs when we wonder from the true vine, or we abuse the Grace of the fruit of that vine, similar to the abuse (and drunkeness) of Noah; who being in the Ark, (typified Christ), also was in Christ; thus, the drunkeness showed the abuse of the Grace bestowed upon him.

God Bless you in your walk and and service to Him.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Helen]

Um, Dallas, there are a few things that maybe could use some discussion or comments regarding your post?

Originally posted by Frogman:
The fruit discussed here is that of the vine.

"fruit of the vine"

Jesus said in John 15.1: "I am the true vine and my Father is the husbandman."

The vine is speaking of the manifestation of God in the flesh; (1 Tim. 3.16); and the fruit of that vine is spoken of first at Ps. 68.18 and again at Ephesians 4.8.

As long as we stay on the true vine and not wander off onto the fruit of another,

We are the branches. The fruit grows on the branches. We don't wander from fruit to fruit...

(such as the tree of the knowledge of good and evil), The evil occurs when we wonder from the true vine,

Branches cannot wander from a vine. In addition, evil occurs when we disobey God/rebel against Him. The fruit of the tree actually had nothing to do with it in that sense. It was what God used to allow them a choice to obey or disobey. They already knew good -- they walked with God! All they had left to learn about was evil -- and that is what came from disobedience.

or we abuse the Grace of the fruit of that vine,

You either produce fruit or you don't. The branch can produce little fruit. It can produce a lot of fruit. But how on earth does a branch abuse its own fruit?

similar to the abuse (and drunkeness) of Noah; who being in the Ark, (typified Christ), also was in Christ; thus, the drunkeness showed the abuse of the Grace bestowed upon him.

The Bible never once condemns Noah for that drunkenness. We do. I think we do because we don't understand something. Noah was a husbandman. He knew vines. He knew grapes. He knew wine. What he didn't know was that the vastly lessened air pressure after the Flood was going to get him passed-out drunk on the same amount of wine that used to do little or nothing to him. Looking at the scientific side of things, I'm pretty sure that what we see happening to Noah (the only righteous man of his generation) is evidence of a vastly changed world after the Flood, not evidence of anything wrong with Noah. If, by the way, he had expected grape juice only, he would have spit out the stuff after the first sip. He didn't. He expected wine. He had fermented it. He drank it as he was used to having it before the Flood. But with the reduced air pressure it had a vastly intensified effect on him.

[ October 17, 2002, 10:27 PM: Message edited by: Helen ]

 

[Frogman]

Branches cannot wander from a vine.

Helen,

You brought out some good points.

but what about what else Jesus said: "Abide in me..."

If we cannot wander; (backslide; abuse Grace; why is he exhorting us to abide in Him?)

I am impressed by your scientific knowledge of the air pressures after the flood, really I am, however, I believe this scripture at Gen. 9.21 is simply showing us a man of God who abused the fruits of the Grace of God;

You may not be able to take this, and others may not want to; (I do not mean to suggest you must either); however, I have been greatly blessed by studying the truth found in this portion of Scripture.

I believe this to be (on the vine) of God's Word which is Christ Jesus.

Yes, often in Scripture we encounter pictorials making use of plant(s): tree of life; vineyard; olive, fig tree, etc.

I do not believe I have overstretched the Scripture; as the Ark typifies Christ; Noah was in the Ark; this carried him over the flood; being from the mouth of Christ "I am the true vine..." Then if Noah is found in the Ark (Christ); he must also have a place on the vine (again Christ), this would make him a "branch." The fruit of the vine, first being salvation, (Ps. 68.18 and Eph. 4.8) the "gifts received and given unto men" begin with salvation, this is an eternal possession and position, but the Spirit of Grace can be abused none the less, this is what I believe to be taught at Gen. 9.20-21; drunkness on the abuses of the fruits of the vine, rather than using those fruits correctly.

Hope that explains my position a little better.

Thanks for comments.

God Bless you in your walk and service to Him.

Bro. Dallas