Watch for the beast!

[Reformed1689]

It was a return in judgment....not the second coming.

That's not what the passage states, that's the problem.

 

[robycop3]

It was a return in judgment....not the second coming.

Well, actually, He didn't come at all then. Only His judgment did, in fulfillment of His "days of vengeance" prophecy. The only coming he even mentioned is His physical return in great power & glory.

 

[Lodic]

No, JESUS wasn't wrong, of course. Your(or Gentry's) interp of His words is wrong.

For example, "this generation" in Matt. 24. You were asked to study the meanings of the Greek word 'genea'. Just ONE of its meanings is "all the people born at or near the same time, mentioned collectively". It can also mean "a people, tribe, etc." Have you considered THAT mighta been what Jesus meant, especially as the prophesied events didn't then occur, & Jesus included events that are still going on today?

And you admitted you didn't understand Rev. 19. It's VERY EASY to understand. Jesus comes from heaven in great power & glory, accompanied by His saints, & the beast & his allies send their armies to attack Him. But the beast & the false prophet are captured & cast alive into hell. Now, Jesus said He'd return IMMEDIATELY AFTER the great trib ended, so if the trib has already happened, He's 'WAY overdue! TRUTH is, the trib hasn't yet occurred, or Jesus would be here physically, ruling the world.

Also, Rev. 19 makes it plain that the beast will be in power when Jesus returns. Thus, it's undeniably OBVIOUS that the beast hasn't yet come.

And the notion that Rome was the beast & Israel the FP is MORE-THAN ABSURD! Neither of them was, nor will be, cast alive into hell! They'll be individual men.

So, Rev. 19 **PROVES** that the prophesied eschatological events haven't yet occurred. There's simply no way prets can get around the reality of history & the truth of Scripture.

I was already familiar with the other possible interpretations for "generation". The context makes it clear that the 1st definition you quoted is the one Jesus meant. "A people, tribe, etc." simply doesn't make sense in the context. As far as events still going on today, Solomon tells us that there is nothing new under the sun.

One doesn't have to know exactly what a prophecy does refer to in order to know what it does not refer to. Your view only makes sense if the rest of the "Futurist" view makes sense - which it doesn't.

As we've said before, we are not likely to agree on our views. A couple of friends from a Men's Bible Study that I attend have started to seriously question the Futurist views. I'm doing my part to show that there are other views to consider, even if they don't ultimately switch. More importantly to all of us is the fact that we are Brothers in Christ. It's okay to have different views on issues like the "End Times", modern day gifts of the Spirit, Armenianism vs Reformed Theology, etc. However, it's important to discuss these different views because we need to know what Scripture actually teaches.

 

[Iconoclast]

That's not what the passage states, that's the problem.

Does it say....the sign of the Son of Man....IN HEAVEN? Mt 24.:27-30?

 

[Iconoclast]

I was already familiar with the other possible interpretations for "generation". The context makes it clear that the 1st definition you quoted is the one Jesus meant. "A people, tribe, etc." simply doesn't make sense in the context. As far as events still going on today, Solomon tells us that there is nothing new under the sun.

One doesn't have to know exactly what a prophecy does refer to in order to know what it does not refer to. Your view only makes sense if the rest of the "Futurist" view makes sense - which it doesn't.

As we've said before, we are not likely to agree on our views. A couple of friends from a Men's Bible Study that I attend have started to seriously question the Futurist views. I'm doing my part to show that there are other views to consider, even if they don't ultimately switch. More importantly to all of us is the fact that we are Brothers in Christ. It's okay to have different views on issues like the "End Times", modern day gifts of the Spirit, Armenianism vs Reformed Theology, etc. However, it's important to discuss these different views because we need to know what Scripture actually teaches.

The Holy place was still standing,
The abomination that makes desolate took place in the Holy place

They were still obeying a Mosaic sabbath.

 

[Reformed1689]

Does it say....the sign of the Son of Man....IN HEAVEN? Mt 24.:27-30?

Of course, THEN THE SON ACTUALLY COMES.

 

[Iconoclast]

Of course, THEN THE SON ACTUALLY COMES.

Of course Jesus comes back on the last day.He said so 3x in Jn
6.
I know you do not hold it yet, but consider how it fits the actions that historically happen to that generation.
The saw the signs Jesus said would happened.They fled to the mountains,
Judgement came...and those who crucified Jesus wept as they realized Jesus brought the days of vengeance upon them as Covenant breakers.
For now...keep reading Luke 17-21,along with Mt 24....and just consider this view, before you try and dismantle it.

 

[Reformed1689]

Of course Jesus comes back on the last day.He said so 3x in Jn
6.
I know you do not hold it yet, but consider how it fits the actions that historically happen to that generation.
The saw the signs Jesus said would happened.They fled to the mountains,
Judgement came...and those who crucified Jesus wept as they realized Jesus brought the days of vengeance upon them as Covenant breakers.
For now...keep reading Luke 17-21,along with Mt 24....and just consider this view, before you try and dismantle it.

Yet Jesus himself did not show himself in the clouds. It did not happen. There is no amount of twisting to make that have happened, it hasn't.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yet Jesus himself did not show himself in the clouds. It did not happen. There is no amount of twisting to make that have happened, it hasn't.

It is a figure of speech taken from ot.passages known to the Jews.
Rev1:7
Compare with Isa19....did God literally appear in Egypt?

 

[robycop3]

I was already familiar with the other possible interpretations for "generation". The context makes it clear that the 1st definition you quoted is the one Jesus meant. "A people, tribe, etc." simply doesn't make sense in the context. As far as events still going on today, Solomon tells us that there is nothing new under the sun.

One doesn't have to know exactly what a prophecy does refer to in order to know what it does not refer to. Your view only makes sense if the rest of the "Futurist" view makes sense - which it doesn't.

As we've said before, we are not likely to agree on our views. A couple of friends from a Men's Bible Study that I attend have started to seriously question the Futurist views. I'm doing my part to show that there are other views to consider, even if they don't ultimately switch. More importantly to all of us is the fact that we are Brothers in Christ. It's okay to have different views on issues like the "End Times", modern day gifts of the Spirit, Armenianism vs Reformed Theology, etc. However, it's important to discuss these different views because we need to know what Scripture actually teaches.

Sir, you can keep on posting Gentry's guesswork views all you want, or you can pray for the HOLY SPIRIT toopen your eyes to the truth, so you'll study Scripture & history closely, realizing Scripture shapes history, & see that preterism is false. The question you can't answer abouit Rev. 19 & why Jesus isn't physically here & ruling the world right now should be sufficiant that the whole pret house of cards topples at the slightest breeze.

You admit that Jesus' physical return is yet future, but you still insist the beast & great trib have already come & gone, despite plain Scripture in Rev. 19 that says the beast will be in power when Jesus returns, plus Jesus Himself saying His return will be IMMEDIATELY AFTER HE CUTS THE GREAT TRIB SHORT. If you believe Scripture, how can you go against it in this set of events?????????????? No wonder few people believe a word you say here!

 

[Lodic]

Sir, you can keep on posting Gentry's guesswork views all you want, or you can pray for the HOLY SPIRIT to open your eyes to the truth, so you'll study Scripture & history closely, realizing Scripture shapes history, & see that preterism is false. The question you can't answer about Rev. 19 & why Jesus isn't physically here & ruling the world right now should be sufficient that the whole pret house of cards topples at the slightest breeze.

You admit that Jesus' physical return is yet future, but you still insist the beast & great trib have already come & gone, despite plain Scripture in Rev. 19 that says the beast will be in power when Jesus returns, plus Jesus Himself saying His return will be IMMEDIATELY AFTER HE CUTS THE GREAT TRIB SHORT. If you believe Scripture, how can you go against it in this set of events?????????????? No wonder few people believe a word you say here!

Brother, the Holy Spirit opened my eyes to the errors of the "Futurist" views of eschatology many years ago. The more I study Scripture, the more evidence I see for the past fulfillment of those events.

Not long after I surrendered my life to Jesus, a friend tried his best to convert me to the Roman Catholic church. I actually attended a catechism class for several weeks. During that time, even as a new Believer, I peppered the priest with lots of questions because the Catholic doctrines simply didn't line up with Scripture. I bring that up to show that I spent a great deal of time in prayer and study after I learned of the Preterist views before I realized that DeMar, Gentry, etc. are right. To quote Davy Crockett, I like to be sure I'm right, then go ahead. One of their strongest arguments is about all the "time indicators" in the NT. They all point to a 1st Century fulfillment of those prophecies.

As I see it, either Jesus literally meant those events would come soon, within the generation of His 1st Century audience, or He did not mean exactly what He said. If He did mean those events would come soon, we must recognize the symbolic nature of the prophecies in Revelation. On the other hand, if you insist that all the prophecies in Revelation are to be taken literally, you cannot take Jesus literally when He said those events would happen within their generation. Since much of Revelation is obviously symbolic, and since Jesus meant the generation He was speaking to all the other times He spoke about "this generation", it makes sense to believe in a past fulfillment. And that, Brother, is why the Futurist view is the real "house of cards". Whether you or anyone else believes me is of no importance. I'd rather agree with what Scripture teaches.

 

[Reformed1689]

It is a figure of speech taken from ot.passages known to the Jews.
Rev1:7
Compare with Isa19....did God literally appear in Egypt?

So you want to make everything figurative that can't be explained or doesn't fit. You can't choose for the desolation of the temple to be literal, but then the coming of the Lord to not be literal without any warrant to do so. And as far as the Is 19 chapter, that's not an equivalent comparison. The Son is coming with his angels, see chapter 16. Or see Chapter 25. See 1 Thes 4. This is not a figurative event, this is a literal event that has not yet been realized. There is no reason to believe it is not literal based on the text.

 

[Iconoclast]

So you want to make everything figurative that can't be explained or doesn't fit. You can't choose for the desolation of the temple to be literal, but then the coming of the Lord to not be literal without any warrant to do so. And as far as the Is 19 chapter, that's not an equivalent comparison. The Son is coming with his angels, see chapter 16. Or see Chapter 25. See 1 Thes 4. This is not a figurative event, this is a literal event that has not yet been realized. There is no reason to believe it is not literal based on the text.

Explain Isa 19 for me.Did God visibly come to Egypt. That was a historical judgment, so how can it be literal and figurative at the same time?
Also....figurative language always speaks to literal events.
Brother....this is just food for thought so you can answer or not.

 

[Iconoclast]

So you want to make everything figurative that can't be explained or doesn't fit. You can't choose for the desolation of the temple to be literal, but then the coming of the Lord to not be literal without any warrant to do so. And as far as the Is 19 chapter, that's not an equivalent comparison. The Son is coming with his angels, see chapter 16. Or see Chapter 25. See 1 Thes 4. This is not a figurative event, this is a literal event that has not yet been realized. There is no reason to believe it is not literal based on the text.

I agree there is yet a second coming for sure.

 

[robycop3]

Brother, the Holy Spirit opened my eyes to the errors of the "Futurist" views of eschatology many years ago. The more I study Scripture, the more evidence I see for the past fulfillment of those events.

Not long after I surrendered my life to Jesus, a friend tried his best to convert me to the Roman Catholic church. I actually attended a catechism class for several weeks. During that time, even as a new Believer, I peppered the priest with lots of questions because the Catholic doctrines simply didn't line up with Scripture. I bring that up to show that I spent a great deal of time in prayer and study after I learned of the Preterist views before I realized that DeMar, Gentry, etc. are right. To quote Davy Crockett, I like to be sure I'm right, then go ahead. One of their strongest arguments is about all the "time indicators" in the NT. They all point to a 1st Century fulfillment of those prophecies.

As I see it, either Jesus literally meant those events would come soon, within the generation of His 1st Century audience, or He did not mean exactly what He said. If He did mean those events would come soon, we must recognize the symbolic nature of the prophecies in Revelation. On the other hand, if you insist that all the prophecies in Revelation are to be taken literally, you cannot take Jesus literally when He said those events would happen within their generation. Since much of Revelation is obviously symbolic, and since Jesus meant the generation He was speaking to all the other times He spoke about "this generation", it makes sense to believe in a past fulfillment. And that, Brother, is why the Futurist view is the real "house of cards". Whether you or anyone else believes me is of no importance. I'd rather agree with what Scripture teaches.

No, I don't think it was the Holy Spirit who showed you that stuff, as He doesn't deceive nor lie.

I posted conclusive proof that those events have NOT yet occurred, because if they had already occurred, Jesus would be here, ruling the world. Now, you can holler all you wish about "time indicators", but the cold, hard TRUTH is, THOSE EVENTS HAVE NOTYET OCCURRED! More proof? The world is basically the same as it was in 65 AD & 71 AD.

You're fighting Scripture & reality because you're in thrall to the trash of Gentry, DeMar, & other mountebanks whose purpose is to sell boox & make money.

You simply cannot get by the facts that if the beast had already come, JESUS WOULD PHYSICALLY BE HERE! That's plainly shown in Rev. 19. You say you don't understand it, but that's because you don't want to, as it destroys your pret myth. The language couldn't be much plainer: Jesus appears, & the beast & his allies send their armies to fight Him, but the beast & the false prophet are captured & cast alive into hell, while Jesus goes on to destroy their army & take over rule of the world.

You said you believe Scripture 100%, & I guess you do, long as it doesn't go against the pret myth. But then comes Rev. 19, which completely disproves preterism, both full & partial. HOW CAN YOU FULLY BELIEVE THAT SCRIPTURE & STILL BELIEVE THE PRETERISM MYTH ???????????????????????????

 

[robycop3]

Explain Isa 19 for me.Did God visibly come to Egypt. That was a historical judgment, so how can it be literal and figurative at the same time?
Also....figurative language always speaks to literal events.
Brother....this is just food for thought so you can answer or not.

Allow me to answer...
God can come visibly, invisibly, physically, or Spiritually, on a cloud, or simply in the air or on the ground, as He chooses. Remember, Jesus said He'd be present whenever/wherever two or more are gathered in His name. And espacially on Sundays, there are millions of groups gathered in His name. As He is God, He can be present at every one of them at once. And I believe that includes social media such as this one.

 

[Iconoclast]

Allow me to answer...
God can come visibly, invisibly, physically, or Spiritually, on a cloud, or simply in the air or on the ground, as He chooses. Remember, Jesus said He'd be present whenever/wherever two or more are gathered in His name. And espacially on Sundays, there are millions of groups gathered in His name. As He is God, He can be present at every one of them at once. And I believe that includes social media such as this one.

Thank you for offering an answer.
I am glad that you post God can come in judgment as scripture indicates, it still come on the last day.
The where two or three are gathered is in the context of church discipline, not as you have used it.

 

[Lodic]

No, I don't think it was the Holy Spirit who showed you that stuff, as He doesn't deceive nor lie.

I posted conclusive proof that those events have NOT yet occurred, because if they had already occurred, Jesus would be here, ruling the world. Now, you can holler all you wish about "time indicators", but the cold, hard TRUTH is, THOSE EVENTS HAVE NOTYET OCCURRED! More proof? The world is basically the same as it was in 65 AD & 71 AD.

You're fighting Scripture & reality because you're in thrall to the trash of Gentry, DeMar, & other mountebanks whose purpose is to sell boox & make money.

You simply cannot get by the facts that if the beast had already come, JESUS WOULD PHYSICALLY BE HERE! That's plainly shown in Rev. 19. You say you don't understand it, but that's because you don't want to, as it destroys your pret myth. The language couldn't be much plainer: Jesus appears, & the beast & his allies send their armies to fight Him, but the beast & the false prophet are captured & cast alive into hell, while Jesus goes on to destroy their army & take over rule of the world.

You said you believe Scripture 100%, & I guess you do, long as it doesn't go against the pret myth. But then comes Rev. 19, which completely disproves preterism, both full & partial. HOW CAN YOU FULLY BELIEVE THAT SCRIPTURE & STILL BELIEVE THE PRETERISM MYTH ???????????????????????????

You don't think the Holy Spirit revealed the truths of Preterism. I don't think the Holy Spirit inspired the "Futurist" views. We are at an impasse.

While you say you have posted conclusive proof that those events have not occurred, you can't get around the fact that Jesus said the generation He was speaking to would see those events. These time indicators that you so readily dismiss are key to understanding prophecy. You can keep saying these things haven't happened yet all you want, but you have to change the plain meaning of Christ's words to make this claim. I choose to believe Scripture over your idea that it simply could not have happened yet because you don't think it could have happened yet.

Neither Rev 19, nor any part of Scripture, disproves Preterism. On the other hand, the "time indicator" passages provide strong support for the view. "Soon" doesn't mean those events would take place 2,000 years in the future. "This generation" doesn't mean "the generation that will see these things take place. For someone who claims to interpret Scripture literally, you cherry pick passages that you change the meaning of.

 

[robycop3]

Thank you for offering an answer.
I am glad that you post God can come in judgment as scripture indicates, it still come on the last day.
The where two or three are gathered is in the context of church discipline, not as you have used it.

And why can't Jesus be present when any two are gathered to discuss Him, for example, if a lost person approaches a Christian, & asks, "What must I do to be saved?"

 

[robycop3]

You don't think the Holy Spirit revealed the truths of Preterism. I don't think the Holy Spirit inspired the "Futurist" views. We are at an impasse.

Yes, we are, until you realize the truth & stop believing Gentry's trash.

While you say you have posted conclusive proof that those events have not occurred, you can't get around the fact that Jesus said the generation He was speaking to would see those events.

I can easily get around them by the fact that those events haven't happened yet. Therefore, the generation that sees those events begin will see them all.

These time indicators that you so readily dismiss are key to understanding prophecy. You can keep saying these things haven't happened yet all you want, but you have to change the plain meaning of Christ's words to make this claim. I choose to believe Scripture over your idea that it simply could not have happened yet because you don't think it could have happened yet.

I've repeatedly asked you, or any other pret, to show us those events in history, & they simply can't do it. All they offer is guesswork answers.

Neither Rev 19, nor any part of Scripture, disproves Preterism.

Yes, it DOES! In several posts, I've proven it, by the fact that if the beast had already come, Jesus would now be here, ruling the world. YOU CANNOT EXPLAIN WHY, IF THE BEAST HAD ALREADY COME, JESUS ISN'T HERE !

On the other hand, the "time indicator" passages provide strong support for the view. "Soon" doesn't mean those events would take place 2,000 years in the future. "This generation" doesn't mean "the generation that will see these things take place. For someone who claims to interpret Scripture literally, you cherry pick passages that you change the meaning of.

Then again, PLEASE SHOW US THE OCCURRENCE OF THOSE EVENTS IN HISTORY, without any guesswork or nonsensical answers. Please tell us why, if Nero was the beast, why Jesus didn't come & cast him alive into hell, as He said He would do with the beast in Rev. 19.