Jesus is omnipresent. No one said he was not.
The comment from Mt.18 is concerning church discipline.You are not using the verse correctly.
Two kingdom members having coffee at Dunkin donuts is not a church.
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Watch for the beast!
- Thread starter robycop3
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The comment from Mt.18 is concerning church discipline.You are not using the verse correctly.
Two kingdom members having coffee at Dunkin donuts is not a church.
The abomination of desolation mentioned took place.
It was to be in the Holy Place.
Guess what...there is no more earthly Holy place. It was destroyed as Jesus said it would be.
Jerusalem was surrounded.
The people fled as Jesus told them to do.
The temple and Holy place were destroyed.
You are calling for a do over....not happening.
It was to be in the Holy Place.
Guess what...there is no more earthly Holy place. It was destroyed as Jesus said it would be.
Jerusalem was surrounded.
The people fled as Jesus told them to do.
The temple and Holy place were destroyed.
You are calling for a do over....not happening.
Jesus said "When you see the AOD mentioned by Daniel..." & added "Let the reader understand." We understand by reading Daniel and history that the AOD will be similar to the one mentioned by Daniel, which occurred in the 160s BC when Antiochus Epiphanes, the Seleucid ruler of the Judea area at the time, set up a statue of Zeus in the temple & sacrificed a pig upon the altar. reading Rev. 13, we see the beast will do a similar act, setting up a statue of himself in the temple to come, stopping sacrifices in it, & declaring himself God. That'll be the AOD Jesus warned about.
When the Christians fled earlier, they had 8 months to do so, between the Roman sieges. But they'll have very little time in the coming event, with a fully mechanized army coming for them. Apparently, that army won't bother to check out the mountains. Thus we see the coming AOD will be performed by the beast, as the first one was performed by the ruler of the area. But, as the beast hasn't yet come, the AOD of Jesus hasn't occurred yet. But it WILL !
It could be if they were discussing Jesus, or some aspect of worship.
Lodic
Well-Known Member
Or until you realize the truth. We could go on like this all day - actually, we have been going on this way for a couple of years.
The problem with that is that Jesus did not say "the generation that see those events". You are adding words to what He said.
Same question, same answer. Those events were in and around Jerusalem from AD 66-70. Of course you know all about the Jewish Wars. As a serious student of history, you probably know more about the Jewish Wars than I do. You fail to see how the "End Times" prophecies were fulfilled in that time period.
The only part of Rev 19 I am not entirely sure about is the passage where the Beast & False Prophet were cast alive into Hell. On the other hand, I know that the entire "futurist" view is poor exegesis and a lot of fantasy. When I understand that passage, I'll let you know. I'm sure we will still be debating this for quite some time.
And we will, long as you keep saying preterism is true.
No, the prob is those events didn't happen then. YOUR prob, not mine.
Nupe. Not found in history.
Yes, I fail to see something that's not there.
How about the fact that the beast will be in power when Jesus returns? You admit Jesus hasn't returned yet, so the beast hasn't yet come, either, which you won't admit.
There's nothing to be unsure about in those verses. The beast & FP will be cast alive into hell shortly after Jesus returns & the beast tries to attack Him with his army. Nothing hard to understand about that event. Your prob is those passages wreck your preterism myth, & you can't make yourself admit it.
RRIIGGHHTT ! And Biden is pope...Donald Trump is the beast...
Lodic
Well-Known Member
You have no problem changing what Jesus said????
You contradict yourself, Brother. You sometimes refer to the Jewish Wars and the destruction of Jerusalem.
The Beast (Roman Empire) was in power when Christ came in judgment. It's possible that the Beast and False Prophet were cast into Hell, but not in the way we might expect. That doesn't really make any difference, though. I'd rather believe that Jesus and the NT writers meant exactly what they said than change what they said to fit my view of how things are supposed to play out. I would have no problem admitting it if I were wrong. After all, many years ago, I admitted I was wrong about my views that the events in the Olivet Discourse and Revelation are all in our future. I was willing to research, study, and seek the Lord's guidance. Ergo, I am a Preterist.
The FACTS speak for themselves.The events haven't occurred yet. Jesus wasn't wrong; your guru Gentry's interp of what He said is wrong. No getting by the fact that those events are still future.
Sure, they occurred, but not the eschatological events.
TWICE-WRONG. Rome was NOT the beast, and Jesus hasn't come yet.
No, it's not possible because they haven't been here yet.
Jesus said when He returns, the beast & his allies will attempt to attack Him, but the beast & FP will be cast alive into hell, & their army will be slain by the sword of Jesus' words that'll come from His mouth. And nowhere in Rev after that is it written that Jesus left earth again. Once again, if the beast has already come & gone, WHY ISN'T JESUS NOW HERE, AS HE SAID HE'D BE AFTER THE BEAST & FP ARE CAST INTO HELL?
Obviously, He isn't physically here now, so those events haven't yet happened. Nothing you can invent or think of, nothing your gurus gentry or DeMar can write, will sidestep those indisputable facts. Except for the advances God has permitted man to make, the world is the same as it was in 65 AD or 71 AD. People still do the same basic things. There are still families, clans, tribes, ethnic groups & cultures, and nations, same as there were then. There's simply no getting by that TRUTH.
Lodic
Well-Known Member
So, your "facts" speak for themselves, but the very words of Jesus do not? "This generation" clearly meant the generation that Jesus was speaking to. No getting around that fact. If you are interested, Gary DeMar has a great article regarding "this generation" at this link - How Should 'This Generation' be Understood? - The American Vision. DeMar includes a list of quotes from other commentators at the end of the article.
Jack Lewis said something most interesting. "Christ’s use of the words ‘immediately after’ [in Matthew 24:30] does not leave room for a long delay (2,000 years or more before His literal second coming occurs), neither does the explicit time-scale given in Matthew 24:34. The word ‘parousia’ does not occur in this section but is prominently reintroduced in the new paragraph which begins at Matthew 24:36, where its unknown time is contrasted with the clear statement that the events of this paragraph will take place within ‘this generation” (Matthew 24:36). This section is therefore in direct continuity with what has gone before, the account of the siege of Jerusalem. Here we reach its climax.” “The language is drawn from Daniel 7:13–14, which points to the vindication and enthronement of Jesus (rather than his second coming [‘parousia’]). In this context, therefore, this poetic language appropriately refers to the great changes which were about to take place in the world, when Jerusalem and its temple were destroyed. It speaks of the ‘Son of Man’ entering into His kingship, and ‘His angels’ gathering in His new people from all the earth. The fall of the temple is thus presented, in highly allusive language, as the end of the old order, to be replaced by the new regime of Jesus, the Son of Man, and the international growth of his church, the new people of God."
Whether you accept it or not, there is no getting around the fact that Jesus and the NT writers clearly said those things would happen "soon" after they were said. 2.000 years is not "soon". The only interpretation that fits what they said is the destruction of Jerusalem.
No matter how many times you repeat that Jesus meant the generation living at the time He gage the prophecies, it simply isn't right because THOSE EVENTS HAVEN'T YET OCCURRED.
You're stumped by the fact that Jesus said that when He returns, He will deal with the beast, then rule the world with a rod of iron, and nowhere does He say He will leave the world again.. Now, by no stretch of the imagination has that yet happened!
I read DeMar's article a few years back, & I see nothing new in this edition of it. And if I were face-to-face with him, I'd ask him the same question I asked you about the presence of Jesus if the beast has already come & gone, & listen to him himm & haww around, searching for an answer, then try to change the subject.
So, once again: JESUS SAID IN REV. 19 THAT WHEN HE RETURNS, HE WILL DEAL WITH THE BEAST, FALSE PROPHET, & THEIR ARMY, THEN RULE THE WORLD WITH A ROD OF IRON. IF THE BEAST HAS ALREADY COME & GONE, WHY ISN'T JESUS NOW HERE, RULING THE WORLD ?????????????????
Lodic
Well-Known Member
No matter how many times you repeat that these events haven't happened yet, the fact remains that Jesus said they would happen within the lifetime of the generation then living. Nothing to gauge.
You are stumped by the plain words that Jesus spoke. Once Jesus physically comes, He will not leave, but that is a different topic. You are completely misinterpreting the prophecies, which is what is really behind your confusion.
Considering that a lot of people don't read material from opposing views, I can appreciate that you have taken the time to read DeMar's article. My main point remains that the "time indicators" are strong proof that these events have come to pass.
ACTUAL HISTORY PROVES those events have NOT yet come to pass.
Can you answer my question? Or will you admit preterism is false?
Lodic
Well-Known Member
Scripture and actual history prove the truth of Preterism. I cannot admit what is not true. Since you keep asking when the Beast and False Prophet were thrown into the Lake of Fire (Rev 19:20), I've been studying on this. You made an excellent point that this couldn't refer to Nero, as he committed suicide. However, all the "time indicators" throughout the NT point to the Jewish Wars with a final fulfillment of AD 70. I believe this beyond a shadow of a doubt. So, this seemed to be a conundrum.
Daniel 7:11 describes the Beast destroyed and burned, and these passages are related. Since Daniel and Revelation are both filled with apocalyptic symbolism, it makes sense that these passages are also symbolic. Coherency of Scripture requires us to interpret the entire passage in the same way. Since the Beast is not a literal beast, the Lake of Fire in this passage must not be taken literally either. Earlier, Rev 18:8 said that Babylon shall be burned with fire. I believe the meaning of this passage is that of complete and utter destruction of Jerusalem and the final end of the Old Covenant system.
I do thank you for inspiring me to dig into that passage, as I now have a clear understanding of it. You will disagree with my conclusions, of course.
Really? So history shows we are now living in the new earth with Jesus ruling His people! Huh, I would have thought it would be significantly better than this.
As is often the case with prophecy, there is a foreshadowing in the present generation while the total fulfillment is for the future. We see this clearly in the Revelation written down by John.
Nupe! They prove the opposite.
But you readily admit to the FALSE as if it were true.
Then you realize your guru Gentry was wrong in saying Nero was the beast? GOOD ! You're getting somewhere!`While it's just a baby step, it IS a step! Perhaps the HOLY SPIRIT is causing you to learn the truth, bit by bit, precept upon precept. Perhaps, since you realize Nero was NOT the beast, you'll realize the beast hasn't yet come at all, or else he'd be ruling now, or Jesus would physically be here, ruling the world.
You've simply listened to someone's hooey about the "time indicators". TRUTH is, the events simply haven't yet happened, or Jesus would now be here, ruling in person.
Remember, the beast will be both the antichrist and his empire. The empire will be destroyed, while its ruler will be cast into the LOF.After that Jesus will rule the nations with a rod of iron, as Rev. 19:15, Rev. 2:27, Rev. 12:5, & Psalm 2:8-9 all say.
And remember, there's much-more of the world than just the Jews. Jesus created the Chinese, same as He did the Jews.
Of course. Since Jesus is not now here ruling the world yet, the ONLY possible conclusion is that the eschatological events haven't yet occurred. That's the hard, brutal TRUTH, no matter how much you holler "time indicators".
Lodic
Well-Known Member
I never said that I believe all of Revelation has been fulfilled, which is the Full Preterist view. As a Partial Preterist, I believe the "new Heaven and the new Earth" of Revelation 21 are yet in our future.
I agree that sometimes there can be a foreshadow of future events. The only one that comes to mind was the Abomination of Desolation when Antiochus IV Epiphanes sacrificed a pig on the altar around 160 BC was a "type" of the AOD that came when General Titus and his armies destroyed the temple.
I must respectfully disagree that the Jewish Wars and the destruction of Jerusalem were a foreshadow of yet another future event. Most of those events were fulfilled by AD 70.
Lodic
Well-Known Member
My view has not changed in the least. The Beast was the Roman Empire, but it was personified in Nero.
By ignoring the "time indicators", you completely miss important clues about when the events were to take place. John was told that the events revealed to him were to take place soon, for the time is near. Many who look for these events to happen in our lifetime point to the very same phrases to argue that Jesus is coming soon. How can "soon" mean near to us and not to the original 1st Century audience? James 5 says that "the coming of the Lord is at hand...the Judge is standing right at the door". 1 Peter 4:7 says "the end of all things is at hand". We must discover what the original speaker or writer meant, and what the original audience understood. Simply repeating "these events haven't happened yet" is nothing more than sticking your head into the sand of your "futurist" views and ignoring any evidence to the contrary.
Frankly, I'm a little surprised that you made this comment. The judgment of the Great Tribulation came upon Apostate Israel in 70 AD, so it has absolutely nothing to do with anyone else in the world.
By dismissing the "time indicators", you are like someone on a jury who ignores the testimony of witnesses who heard the details of a crime being planned. The clues are right in front of you, but you have made up your mind that they don't mean what they actually say.
No, Titus did NOT commit the AOD. he was not the beast. NOR DID JESUS COME WHILE TITUS WAS IN POWER; titus died a natural death.
Anf the Jewish wars did NOT fulfill the eschatological events. Otherwise, Jesus would be here.
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