Watch for the beast!

[robycop3]

My view has not changed in the least. The Beast was the Roman Empire, but it was personified in Nero.

No, the beast will be one man & his empire. And it was not nero, as I proved with history and Scripture. otherwise, Jesus would be here.

By ignoring the "time indicators", you completely miss important clues about when the events were to take place. John was told that the events revealed to him were to take place soon, for the time is near. Many who look for these events to happen in our lifetime point to the very same phrases to argue that Jesus is coming soon. How can "soon" mean near to us and not to the original 1st Century audience? James 5 says that "the coming of the Lord is at hand...the Judge is standing right at the door". 1 Peter 4:7 says "the end of all things is at hand". We must discover what the original speaker or writer meant, and what the original audience understood. Simply repeating "these events haven't happened yet" is nothing more than sticking your head into the sand of your "futurist" views and ignoring any evidence to the contrary.

As I said, you can holler "time indicators" all you wish, but the TRUTH is that those events have NOT yet happened.

Frankly, I'm a little surprised that you made this comment. The judgment of the Great Tribulation came upon Apostate Israel in 70 AD, so it has absolutely nothing to do with anyone else in the world.

That was NOT the great trib. Jesus said the trib would be worldwide. (Rev. 3:10) Had the trib happened then, Jesus would be here now.

By dismissing the "time indicators", you are like someone on a jury who ignores the testimony of witnesses who heard the details of a crime being planned. The clues are right in front of you, but you have made up your mind that they don't mean what they actually say.

OF COURSE the jurors would dismiss such testimony if the crime didn't occur! And the eschatological events have NOT yet happened, or you could show them to us in history, and Jesus would be here now.

 

[Lodic]

No, Titus did NOT commit the AOD. he was not the beast. NOR DID JESUS COME WHILE TITUS WAS IN POWER; titus died a natural death.

And the Jewish wars did NOT fulfill the eschatological events. Otherwise, Jesus would be here.

Right, Titus was not the Beast. He was just a general acting on behalf of the Beast.

No, the beast will be one man & his empire. And it was not nero, as I proved with history and Scripture. otherwise, Jesus would be here.

Wrong in everything you just said. More importantly, Jesus said that everything He had told the disciples would come to pass within their generation (Matt 24:34). Jesus is never wrong, so you must be.

That was NOT the great trib. Jesus said the trib would be worldwide. (Rev. 3:10) Had the trib happened then, Jesus would be here now.

Rev 3:10 speaks of tribulation coming upon "the land" - meaning the land of Israel.

So, are you going to believe Jesus and the Scriptures, or continue to hold on to those fantasies from the "Left Behind" books?

 

[robycop3]

Right, Titus was not the Beast. He was just a general acting on behalf of the Beast.

MMRRPP ! WRONG !
The beast did NOT come then, nor has he come yet. And Scripture mentions no one acting on the beast's behalf.


[quoteWrong in everything you just said. More importantly, Jesus said that everything He had told the disciples would come to pass within their generation (Matt 24:34). Jesus is never wrong, so you must be.[/quote]
...Except that those events have NOT yet occurred. Otherwise, you could point them out in history.

Rev 3:10 speaks of tribulation coming upon "the land" - meaning the land of Israel.[]/quote]
No, most translations read "the whole world".

So, are you going to believe Jesus and the Scriptures, or continue to hold on to those fantasies from the "Left Behind" books?

I'm gonna hold on to the TRUTH, as set forth in Scripture & history. If YOU wish to hold on to the man-made quackery you keep posting, that's between you & GOD. OTOH, I'll keep telling the other readers the TRUTH.

 

[Lodic]

MMRRPP ! WRONG !
The beast did NOT come then, nor has he come yet. And Scripture mentions no one acting on the beast's behalf.

[quoteWrong in everything you just said. More importantly, Jesus said that everything He had told the disciples would come to pass within their generation (Matt 24:34). Jesus is never wrong, so you must be.

...Except that those events have NOT yet occurred. Otherwise, you could point them out in history.

Or...those events happened exactly when Jesus, St. John, etc. said they would happen. Since Jesus and the writers of the Bible are always right, what else are we to think?

Your only argument is "I don't believe these things have happened yet, so they must still be in our future". My main argument is that Jesus said His disciples would see those events happen. Jesus also said those events would happen within their generation. Revelation says those events were to happen soon. If we are to understand these words in their common, ordinary meaning, they had to happen in the 1st Century. Any other interpretation changes the meaning of what the Scriptures say.

 

[robycop3]

Or...those events happened exactly when Jesus, St. John, etc. said they would happen. Since Jesus and the writers of the Bible are always right, what else are we to think?

Your only argument is "I don't believe these things have happened yet, so they must still be in our future". My main argument is that Jesus said His disciples would see those events happen. Jesus also said those events would happen within their generation. Revelation says those events were to happen soon. If we are to understand these words in their common, ordinary meaning, they had to happen in the 1st Century. Any other interpretation changes the meaning of what the Scriptures say.

Sir, no matter how many times you say those events have happened, reality proves they HAVEN'T.

You admit Nero wasn't the beast one day, & imply he was the next day. Can't be both.

Let me remind you of the Scripture that, when paired with reality, destroys preterism-Rev. 19. If Nero was the beast, he woulda been cast alive into the lake of fire. He didn't die fighting Jesus; he died at his own command because he was about to be arrested & paraded through the streets of Rome. If Jesus woulda come then, He'd still be here now. You simply have no way past that Scripture! ISN'T IT ABOUT TIME TO GIVE UP GENTRY'S & DEMAR'S FICTION AND FULLY BELIEVE SCRIPTURE?

 

[timtofly]

This came up in another thread. Jesus said He would return immediatewly after the great trib, so we know His return is not "right around the corner" as the trib hasn't yet happened.

Jesus claims He did not know when the return was. Now you all think Jesus claims it will be immediately after the GT. That is pretty specific in timing.

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

Many jump to the conclusion that it is after "the above tribulation". Jesus also pointed out tribulation would be ongoing from the Cross even until the end. Matthew 24:4-14. The whole church age has been great tribulation. Jesus did not say, "Immediately after the Greatest Tribulation ever". In keeping with the point no one knows, Jesus simply states the tribulation of those days. Because the next event mentioned after the Second Coming is the blooming of the fig tree.

If Matthew 24:32-34 is considered the rebirth of the Nation of Israel in 1948, then the Second Coming happened before 1948. The Greatest Tribulation happened way before 1948, and the AoD happened back in the 19th century.

Your chronological order means we already missed the beast, the GT, and the Second Coming, because they all happened before 1948.

Jesus gives us no hints on the timing of the Second Coming outside of: "this generation shall not pass until all is fulfilled." 1948 happens before the Second Coming. The Second Coming happens after tribulation, but not the GT. The GT happens but not because of the AoD.

 

[robycop3]

Jesus claims He did not know when the return was. Now you all think Jesus claims it will be immediately after the GT. That is pretty specific in timing.

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

Many jump to the conclusion that it is after "the above tribulation". Jesus also pointed out tribulation would be ongoing from the Cross even until the end. Matthew 24:4-14. The whole church age has been great tribulation. Jesus did not say, "Immediately after the Greatest Tribulation ever". In keeping with the point no one knows, Jesus simply states the tribulation of those days. Because the next event mentioned after the Second Coming is the blooming of the fig tree.

If Matthew 24:32-34 is considered the rebirth of the Nation of Israel in 1948, then the Second Coming happened before 1948. The Greatest Tribulation happened way before 1948, and the AoD happened back in the 19th century.

Your chronological order means we already missed the beast, the GT, and the Second Coming, because they all happened before 1948.

Jesus gives us no hints on the timing of the Second Coming outside of: "this generation shall not pass until all is fulfilled." 1948 happens before the Second Coming. The Second Coming happens after tribulation, but not the GT. The GT happens but not because of the AoD.

The events haven't happened yet.
JESUS SAID IN REV. 19 THAT WHEN HE RETURNS, HE WILL DEAL WITH THE BEAST, FALSE PROPHET, & THEIR ARMY, THEN RULE THE WORLD WITH A ROD OF IRON. IF THE BEAST HAS ALREADY COME & GONE, WHY ISN'T JESUS NOW HERE, RULING THE WORLD ?????????????????

 

[timtofly]

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And he that falleth on this stone shall be broken to pieces: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will scatter him as dust.
45 And when the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. Mt 21

That was the change from OT to NT.

At the Second Coming the vineyard will be taken away from the unfaithful and given to Satan for 42 months. Then the unfaithful will have to submit to Satan, like the Jews had to give way to the Gentile redeemed.

Remember that Christ was on earth during that transition. Jesus as Prince will be on earth during the transition from unfaithful to Satan. You cannot deny Christ physically being on earth at both times.

Preterist are stuck in the first century. Hope they are not blindsided at the Second Coming.

 

[Lodic]

Sir, no matter how many times you say those events have happened, reality proves they HAVEN'T.

You admit Nero wasn't the beast one day, & imply he was the next day. Can't be both.

Let me remind you of the Scripture that, when paired with reality, destroys preterism-Rev. 19. If Nero was the beast, he woulda been cast alive into the lake of fire. He didn't die fighting Jesus; he died at his own command because he was about to be arrested & paraded through the streets of Rome. If Jesus woulda come then, He'd still be here now. You simply have no way past that Scripture! ISN'T IT ABOUT TIME TO GIVE UP GENTRY'S & DEMAR'S FICTION AND FULLY BELIEVE SCRIPTURE?

To the contrary, no matter how many times you say those events have not happened yet, Jesus said they would happen within the generation of His immediate audience. The Beast was primarily the Roman Empire, but the Number of the Beast clearly points to Nero. Therefore, it was indeed both.

I've already explained why Rev 19 does not "destroy" the Preterist view. On the other hand, you have not been able to explain how "this generation", "soon", etc. could be changed to mean "that generation", "then", etc. This is a huge problem you can't get past, no matter how many times you repeat that this happened yet. Talk about fiction - your view is more in line with the "Left Behind" books than with Scripture.

 

[Lodic]

If Matthew 24:32-34 is considered the rebirth of the Nation of Israel in 1948, then the Second Coming happened before 1948. The Greatest Tribulation happened way before 1948, and the AoD happened back in the 19th century.

Pardon me for jumping in, Brother. If I may ask, could you elaborate on why you believe the Greatest Tribulation was earlier than 1948 and the AOD was in the 19th century?

 

[timtofly]

The events haven't happened yet.
JESUS SAID IN REV. 19 THAT WHEN HE RETURNS, HE WILL DEAL WITH THE BEAST, FALSE PROPHET, & THEIR ARMY, THEN RULE THE WORLD WITH A ROD OF IRON. IF THE BEAST HAS ALREADY COME & GONE, WHY ISN'T JESUS NOW HERE, RULING THE WORLD ?????????????????

The Second Coming brings Christ as Prince to clear up the mess. But not after the 42 months. The 42 months is a worse case scenario. The best case scenario is no 42 months period. Why should the church leave any souls behind? Why force humans to chose salvation via having their head chopped off?

That is not the current form of faith in Christ. We do not force people to remove their heads to remain in the Lamb's book of life. Salvation is a free gift and a faith choice. The church rapture and Second Coming will have already happened when the choice comes down to one's head or one's eternal salvation.

 

[robycop3]

To the contrary, no matter how many times you say those events have not happened yet, Jesus said they would happen within the generation of His immediate audience. The Beast was primarily the Roman Empire, but the Number of the Beast clearly points to Nero. Therefore, it was indeed both.

Then, for the umpteenth time, HOW COME JESUS ISN'T NOW HERE ????????????

I've already explained why Rev 19 does not "destroy" the Preterist view. On the other hand, you have not been able to explain how "this generation", "soon", etc. could be changed to mean "that generation", "then", etc. This is a huge problem you can't get past, no matter how many times you repeat that this happened yet. Talk about fiction - your view is more in line with the "Left Behind" books than with Scripture.

Nothing to explain. THE EVENTS HAVEN'T HAPPENED YET. If they had, Jesus would now be here, ruling the nations with a rod of iron. He isn't, so the events haven't happened, simple as THAT.

 

[timtofly]

You Futurists cannot provide a Biblical to refute the fact that the "time indicator" texts all point to a 1st Century fulfillment of the Great Tribulation, AOD, etc. "Soon" means soon - unless Jesus said it. "Near" means near - unless Jesus said it. "This generation" means this generation - unless Jesus said it when discussing future events. You would be wise to stop trying to change what Jesus meant, and try to understand HOW these events were fulfilled.

Jesus claimed there would be tribulation all the way to the end. The end being the end of sin, and death by sin. The end of Daniel's 70 weeks. Daniel's 70th week did not end in 70AD. Jesus did not come to be the Prince of Jerusalem in 70AD. Christ as Prince will reign on an earth with those 6 conditions listed in Daniel 9:24. And it will be all about Israel because Israel is Daniel's people, not the redeemed church. The redeemed church includes all like Abraham who were looking for a city not made with human hands but by God in the heavens. It definitely stopped being about Israel in 70AD, not the beginning of the reign of the Prince in a sin free world.

 

[timtofly]

Rome was in power when Christ returned in judgment. Of course Rev 19 is 100% correct, just as the entire Bible is. The issue is one of interpretation. Rev 19 does not pose a problem for the Preterist view.

That would mean Jesus Christ the Prince killed every last Roman citizen. Those not killed were beheaded in the 42 months leading up to 70AD. That means all those beheaded were resurrected and they are still alive today. How are these facts ok with Preterism without proof of these points? What historical record records a single beheading?

 

[timtofly]

Jack Lewis said something most interesting. "Christ’s use of the words ‘immediately after’ [in Matthew 24:30] does not leave room for a long delay (2,000 years or more before His literal second coming occurs), neither does the explicit time-scale given in Matthew 24:34. The word ‘parousia’ does not occur in this section but is prominently reintroduced in the new paragraph which begins at Matthew 24:36, where its unknown time is contrasted with the clear statement that the events of this paragraph will take place within ‘this generation” (Matthew 24:36).

Immediately after is an indication what was happening will stop. If you really want to know the thoughts of these first century hearers. To us modern people it is different with the emphasis on the new event, and not the end of the past event.

The Second Coming is the end of a long list of items. None of those items stopped happening in the first century.

 

[Oseas3]

This came up in another thread. Jesus said He would return immediatewly after the great trib, so we know His return is not "right around the corner" as the trib hasn't yet happened.

In Revelation, we see the beast will be in power when the trib comes, and upon Jesus' return, the beast will send his army to fight Him. Thus, the beast must be here before Jesus' return.

As per Rev. 3:10, I believe the rapture will occur before the beast unleashes his full evil upon the world. But I believe he could well be here & likely in some, if not full, power before the rapture.

So, what should we watch for?

We should watch for a charismatic man who becomes universally admired, a man who can get along well with members of every religion and leaders of nations of conflicting idealogies. I believe he will temporarily bring peace between Moslem & Jew, Protestant & Catholic in Ireland, & even Sunni & Shiite Moslems. He will have few seeming enemies in the world. He will be the greatest human genius of all time.

When he reaches full power, his reign will last about 7 years. I doubt if we who are now Christians will be around for it, as the rapture will take us away But that man will have an explanation for the disappearance of millions, which the world will believe & accept. That'll pretty well eliminate almost all opposition to the "mark of the beast" before it becomes mandatory.

So, let's watch out for this man. However,

Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”(Luke 21:28)

There are more than a hundred of posts in this topic: Watch to the beast: the beast: the beast: the beast ...
But the Word of GOD reveals that there are TWO MAN Beasts: The old/ancient Beast of sea-Revelation 13:v.1 to 10 and the future ruthless Beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb (a false lamb) , and he spake as a Dragon. - Revelation 13:v.11-18

Watch for the Beast? Which one of the TWO BEASTS are you suggesting looking more specifically at?

Could you identify the Man Beast of sea who has a NAME of blasphemy? By the way, the Man Beast of the earth will give his Power, and this Throne and great Authority to the Beast of sea, then the Beast of sea will be LINKED to the Man Beast of the earth. And no man will buy or sell, save he that has the mark, or the NAME of the Beast LINKED to the Man Beast of the earth, or the number of his Name - a NAME of blasphemy.. If you know what is the NAME of blasphemy of the Man Beast of sea, then you will be able to count (NOT CALCULATE, BUT COUNT) the number of the Man Beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

By the way, in what place is or will be the Throne of the Man Beast of the earth like a lamb? Why the Man Beast of the earth will give to the Man Beast of sea his Power, and his Throne and Great Authority? Yeah, what will really be in player in this satanic event? By the way, your point is to be focused and watching for the beast, no?

 

[timtofly]

Whether you accept it or not, there is no getting around the fact that Jesus and the NT writers clearly said those things would happen "soon" after they were said. 2.000 years is not "soon". The only interpretation that fits what they said is the destruction of Jerusalem.

The only generation in Matthew 24 that is mentioned is the blooming of the fig tree generation. Obviously you do not mean 1948 when Israel became a Nation. You mean when Israel ceased to exist and was obliterated.

Now I ask you what is the cursing of the fig tree? The opposite? If the blooming is the end, is the cursing of the fig tree a new beginning? When Jesus cursed the fig tree was that a prophetic mention of the modern apostate Israel?

 

[timtofly]

The events haven't happened yet.
JESUS SAID IN REV. 19 THAT WHEN HE RETURNS, HE WILL DEAL WITH THE BEAST, FALSE PROPHET, & THEIR ARMY, THEN RULE THE WORLD WITH A ROD OF IRON. IF THE BEAST HAS ALREADY COME & GONE, WHY ISN'T JESUS NOW HERE, RULING THE WORLD ?????????????????

"Those events" will not happen until after the Second Coming.

 

[timtofly]

Pardon me for jumping in, Brother. If I may ask, could you elaborate on why you believe the Greatest Tribulation was earlier than 1948 and the AOD was in the 19th century?

I did not say that. I said if we went with the "logic" that the order of events is:

1) AoD.
2) The GT.
3) The Second Coming.
4) 1948 the blooming of the fig tree.

Jesus declared the end in verse 14:

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

If any one thinks the gospel stopped going out to the whole world at 70AD, then all missions and evangelism since 70AD is not the Gospel, but human philosophy.

Tribulation will stop at the end. Tribulation did not stop in 70AD.

Believers being martyred will stop at the end. Martyrdom did not stop in 70AD.

Unbelief will stop at the end. Unbelief did not stop in 70AD.

Deception will be removed at the end. Deception did not stop in 70AD.

In Revelation the FP and beast were cast into the Lake of Fire. There was no Lake of Fire in 70AD. There was only sheol. Sheol and Death will be cast into the LOF 1,000 years after the FP and the beast. Neither event has happened yet. People still only go to sheol. No one has seen Death, yet. No one has seen the Lake of Fire, yet.

Death is for them who have been removed from the Lamb's book of life. Sheol is still for those in the Lamb's book of life. They will not be removed until the GWT. The GWT has not happened yet. At the Second Coming there is still the 7th Seal remaining. Christ the Prince has the Lamb's book of life with Him. Once the 7th Seal is removed, names will start being removed. In Matthew 25:31-32 we see Jesus separating the sheep from the goats. The goats are removed from the Lamb's book of life and placed in Death. From that point on all those who reject or rebel under the iron rod rule will immediately have their name removed from the Lamb's book of life and placed in Death.

That is why at the GWT both sheol and Death are separated and both are emptied and cast into the Lake of Fire. Jesus did not arrive with the Lamb's book of life and start removing names on His throne in Jerusalem in 70AD.

Then from Daniel 9:24. That list was not enacted in 70AD. It cannot be enacted until the 7th Trumpet sounds and stops sounding.
That is found in Revelation 10:5-7

"And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

Time is up for Daniel's 70 weeks. All prophecy will be fulfilled. That did not happen in 70AD.

The only thing that happened in 70AD is the cursed fig tree. Jerusalem and the Temple was left with no stone unturned. There more than likely were a few people still alive who heard Jesus in 30AD. Paul was not alive. Peter was not alive. Many had already lived longer than the 35 year life expectancy of the first century to get to 60AD. 70AD was 40 years after the Cross. Preterist really give those living in the first century more life expectancy than is even normal. For comparison God gave Israel 40 years in the desert to literally kill off that generation and the next. Jesus was allowing grace to state some would still be alive in 70AD. So it has little to do with "soon" or "that generation". It was the grace of God allowing some to live longer than normal. What was at had was the death of a way of life, and Israel ceased being a nation until 1948. The gap was the restoration of Israel. Why has Israel not been given that status hundreds of years ago? Or 1,000 years ago?

The final "end" is Adam's 6,000 years of punishment in sin and death by sin. That 6,000 years did not end in 70AD. Adam's number is 6 thousand years, 6 days a week, 6 hours a day. The beast is the image of the FP which represents that Satan wants humanity to remain lost after that number has expired. God says, "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." Satan says, "Keep on keeping on in your own fallen state."

Also Satan is bound for 1000 years. That did not happen in 70AD.

 

[Oseas3]

GOD WILL SEND STRONG DELUSION - THAT THEY BELIEVE A LIE

The Word is GOD. Isaiah 66:v.4 combined with 2 Thessalonians 2:v.8-12 and Matthews 24:v.15 to 25 KJV:

Isaiah 66:v.4:
4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

2 Thessalonians 2:v.8-12:

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth - His Word - , and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be DAMNED who believed not the Truth - believed not in JESUS -, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Matthew 24:v. 15 to 25

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand).

THE PRIOR ADVICE OF OUR LORD

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

ABOUT STRONG PUNISHMENT

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

TIME OF GREAT DANGER EVEN FOR THE ELECTS - THE FALSE CHRIST

23 Then if any man -Pastors, and Bishops, or Evangelists, Missionaries, among others - shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets -FALSE PREACHERS OF THE WORD OF GOD - 2Corinthians 11:v.13-15, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive (even) the very elect.


25 Behold, I have told you before.

In Christ JESUS, KING of kings (kings made by Him), and LORD of lords