Watch for the beast!

[Lodic]

Then, for the umpteenth time, HOW COME JESUS ISN'T NOW HERE ????????????


Nothing to explain. THE EVENTS HAVEN'T HAPPENED YET. If they had, Jesus would now be here, ruling the nations with a rod of iron. He isn't, so the events haven't happened, simple as THAT.

And, for the umpteenth time, Why would Jesus and the NT writers tell their immediate audience that those events are to happen soon if they were not? Why would Jesus leave them confused about when to expect these events?

And, for the umpteenth time, Christ's 2nd Coming is still in our future.

 

[Lodic]

Jesus claimed there would be tribulation all the way to the end. The end being the end of sin, and death by sin. The end of Daniel's 70 weeks. Daniel's 70th week did not end in 70AD. Jesus did not come to be the Prince of Jerusalem in 70AD. Christ as Prince will reign on an earth with those 6 conditions listed in Daniel 9:24. And it will be all about Israel because Israel is Daniel's people, not the redeemed church. The redeemed church includes all like Abraham who were looking for a city not made with human hands but by God in the heavens. It definitely stopped being about Israel in 70AD, not the beginning of the reign of the Prince in a sin free world.

Yes, in this world we will have tribulation. That's not the same as the Great Tribulation of the Jewish Wars (AD 66-70). Jesus fulfilled the conditions of Daniel 9:24. The "end of sin" was when Christ took our sins upon the Cross. The "70 Weeks" prophecy began with the decree to restore Jerusalem 9n 458 B.C. (Ezra 9:9), and ended with Christ's crucifixion and resurrection in 33 A.D. - 490 years. The crucifixion was in the middle of the 70th week (Daniel 9:27). The destruction of Jerusalem didn't come during the 70th week because the things that determined its desolation were set in place earlier (rejection of Christ, His crucifixion). The destruction of Jerusalem was a judgment upon Israel, ending the Old Covenant system and ushering in a new system.

 

[Lodic]

That would mean Jesus Christ the Prince killed every last Roman citizen. Those not killed were beheaded in the 42 months leading up to 70AD. That means all those beheaded were resurrected and they are still alive today. How are these facts ok with Preterism without proof of these points? What historical record records a single beheading?

Where in the world did you get this idea? Revelation 20:4 speaks of martyrs who were beheaded for the sake of Christ. This was fulfillment of Revelation 6:9-10, where the souls of those martyrs were crying out for vindication.

How are you okay with denying the fact that Jesus clearly told His disciples that the Great Tribulation, AOD, etc would take place within their generation? Was Jesus wrong?

 

[Lodic]

Immediately after is an indication what was happening will stop. If you really want to know the thoughts of these first century hearers. To us modern people it is different with the emphasis on the new event, and not the end of the past event.

The Second Coming is the end of a long list of items. None of those items stopped happening in the first century.

I strongly disagree, Brother. Audience relevance is key to understanding all Scripture, especially prophetic events. Jesus spoke specifically about the destruction of the Temple (Matthew 24:2). When the disciples asked about when this would happen, Jesus told them of things that THEY would see that no other generation would see. Obviously, the Temple was destroyed in AD 70, so it doesn't apply to all generations since then. In Luke 21:20, Jesus told His disciples "when YOU see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near". This would also be in fulfillment of Daniel 9:26.

 

[Lodic]

The only generation in Matthew 24 that is mentioned is the blooming of the fig tree generation. Obviously you do not mean 1948 when Israel became a Nation. You mean when Israel ceased to exist and was obliterated.

Now I ask you what is the cursing of the fig tree? The opposite? If the blooming is the end, is the cursing of the fig tree a new beginning? When Jesus cursed the fig tree was that a prophetic mention of the modern apostate Israel?

Every time Jesus spoke of "this generation", He always meant the generation He was speaking to. If Jesus meant a different, future generation when He gave the Olivet Discourse, He would have said something like "THAT generation", "the generation THAT SEES THESE EVENTS", etc. Jesus said "THIS generation" and His disciples understood He was talking about their generation.

While Israel becoming a nation again in 1948 was wonderful, and God has blessed them, this has nothing to do with Biblical prophecy. The cursing of the fig tree in Matthew 21 has nothing to do with Israel. Jesus was giving an object lesson on hypocrisy - "all leaf but no fruit".

 

[Lodic]

I did not say that. I said if we went with the "logic" that the order of events is:

1) AoD.
2) The GT.
3) The Second Coming.
4) 1948 the blooming of the fig tree.

Jesus declared the end in verse 14:

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

If any one thinks the gospel stopped going out to the whole world at 70AD, then all missions and evangelism since 70AD is not the Gospel, but human philosophy.

Tribulation will stop at the end. Tribulation did not stop in 70AD.

Believers being martyred will stop at the end. Martyrdom did not stop in 70AD.

Unbelief will stop at the end. Unbelief did not stop in 70AD.

Deception will be removed at the end. Deception did not stop in 70AD.

In Revelation the FP and beast were cast into the Lake of Fire. There was no Lake of Fire in 70AD. There was only sheol. Sheol and Death will be cast into the LOF 1,000 years after the FP and the beast. Neither event has happened yet. People still only go to sheol. No one has seen Death, yet. No one has seen the Lake of Fire, yet.

Death is for them who have been removed from the Lamb's book of life. Sheol is still for those in the Lamb's book of life. They will not be removed until the GWT. The GWT has not happened yet. At the Second Coming there is still the 7th Seal remaining. Christ the Prince has the Lamb's book of life with Him. Once the 7th Seal is removed, names will start being removed. In Matthew 25:31-32 we see Jesus separating the sheep from the goats. The goats are removed from the Lamb's book of life and placed in Death. From that point on all those who reject or rebel under the iron rod rule will immediately have their name removed from the Lamb's book of life and placed in Death.

That is why at the GWT both sheol and Death are separated and both are emptied and cast into the Lake of Fire. Jesus did not arrive with the Lamb's book of life and start removing names on His throne in Jerusalem in 70AD.

Then from Daniel 9:24. That list was not enacted in 70AD. It cannot be enacted until the 7th Trumpet sounds and stops sounding.
That is found in Revelation 10:5-7

"And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

Time is up for Daniel's 70 weeks. All prophecy will be fulfilled. That did not happen in 70AD.

The only thing that happened in 70AD is the cursed fig tree. Jerusalem and the Temple was left with no stone unturned. There more than likely were a few people still alive who heard Jesus in 30AD. Paul was not alive. Peter was not alive. Many had already lived longer than the 35 year life expectancy of the first century to get to 60AD. 70AD was 40 years after the Cross. Preterist really give those living in the first century more life expectancy than is even normal. For comparison God gave Israel 40 years in the desert to literally kill off that generation and the next. Jesus was allowing grace to state some would still be alive in 70AD. So it has little to do with "soon" or "that generation". It was the grace of God allowing some to live longer than normal. What was at had was the death of a way of life, and Israel ceased being a nation until 1948. The gap was the restoration of Israel. Why has Israel not been given that status hundreds of years ago? Or 1,000 years ago?

The final "end" is Adam's 6,000 years of punishment in sin and death by sin. That 6,000 years did not end in 70AD. Adam's number is 6 thousand years, 6 days a week, 6 hours a day. The beast is the image of the FP which represents that Satan wants humanity to remain lost after that number has expired. God says, "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." Satan says, "Keep on keeping on in your own fallen state."

Also Satan is bound for 1000 years. That did not happen in 70AD.

Thank you for taking the time to elaborate. I disagree with pretty much everything in your answer, but you are very civil about it. I think I addressed several of those points in your other responses.

We have such different viewpoints that I'm just going to sum up from the sequence of events you listed.
1) The Abomination of Desolation was when General Titus destroyed the Temple in 70 AD.
2) The Great Tribulation was the Jewish Wars in and around Jerusalem from 66 - 70 AD.
3) The 2nd Coming is in our future. Jesus "came" in judgment on Apostate Israel in 70 AD, but He did not physically return.
4) While 1948 saw Israel become a nation, it has nothing to do with prophecy. The "fig tree" of Matthew 19 was just an illustration from nature. (I addressed that in post # 125).

Our views couldn't be more different. I find your views to be pretty strange, and I'm sure you think mine are strange as well. I think I'll be content to agree to disagree. May God bless you and keep you, and may He grant us both a clear understanding of Scripture. After all, the Scriptures are inspired, but our interpretations of what they say are not.

 

[robycop3]

There are more than a hundred of posts in this topic: Watch to the beast: the beast: the beast: the beast ...
But the Word of GOD reveals that there are TWO MAN Beasts: The old/ancient Beast of sea-Revelation 13:v.1 to 10 and the future ruthless Beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb (a false lamb) , and he spake as a Dragon. - Revelation 13:v.11-18

Watch for the Beast? Which one of the TWO BEASTS are you suggesting looking more specifically at?

Could you identify the Man Beast of sea who has a NAME of blasphemy? By the way, the Man Beast of the earth will give his Power, and this Throne and great Authority to the Beast of sea, then the Beast of sea will be LINKED to the Man Beast of the earth. And no man will buy or sell, save he that has the mark, or the NAME of the Beast LINKED to the Man Beast of the earth, or the number of his Name - a NAME of blasphemy.. If you know what is the NAME of blasphemy of the Man Beast of sea, then you will be able to count (NOT CALCULATE, BUT COUNT) the number of the Man Beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

By the way, in what place is or will be the Throne of the Man Beast of the earth like a lamb? Why the Man Beast of the earth will give to the Man Beast of sea his Power, and his Throne and Great Authority? Yeah, what will really be in player in this satanic event? By the way, your point is to be focused and watching for the beast, no?

The beast from the sea will be the antichrist and his empire. The beast from the earth will be his sidekick, the miracle-working false prophet. They will be in power when the great trib occurs & Jesus returns.

And the beast will have Jerusalem as his capital, as will Jesus after He casts the beast & FP alive into hell & destroys their army.

 

[robycop3]

"Those events" will not happen until after the Second Coming.

No, the beast will come to power & the great trib will occur. The beast will commit the AOD. The trib will fall the hardest on the beast's empire, which is also called a beast. Immediately after the trib is ended, Jesus will return.

 

[robycop3]

And, for the umpteenth time, Why would Jesus and the NT writers tell their immediate audience that those events are to happen soon if they were not? Why would Jesus leave them confused about when to expect these events?

And, for the umpteenth time, Christ's 2nd Coming is still in our future.

Since you know Jesus' return is in the future, you SHOULD know the coming of the beast, the AOL, marka the beast, etc. & the great trib, etc. are in the future as well, as Rev. 19 plainly shows Jesus will return while the beast in in power.

 

[Lodic]

Since you know Jesus' return is in the future, you SHOULD know the coming of the beast, the AOL, marka the beast, etc. & the great trib, etc. are in the future as well, as Rev. 19 plainly shows Jesus will return while the beast in in power.

The fact that the 2nd Coming is in our future does not mean that all of the prophecies of the Olivet Discourse, Revelation, etc. are in the future. The Beast (Roman Empire) was in power when Jesus brought judgment upon Israel. You are stuck on Rev 19, but overlook where Revelation says "the time is near", "soon", etc. You also change "this generation" to "the generation that sees those things". Adding to the prophecies is a bad idea, and changing what Jesus actually said to what you want it to say is the same as saying He didn't know how to get His message across.

 

[robycop3]

The fact that the 2nd Coming is in our future does not mean that all of the prophecies of the Olivet Discourse, Revelation, etc. are in the future. The Beast (Roman Empire) was in power when Jesus brought judgment upon Israel. You are stuck on Rev 19, but overlook where Revelation says "the time is near", "soon", etc. You also change "this generation" to "the generation that sees those things". Adding to the prophecies is a bad idea, and changing what Jesus actually said to what you want it to say is the same as saying He didn't know how to get His message across.

The events haven't happened, so you have no basis for your argument.

It was JESUS-not I-who said He would return, & the beast & his army would seek to fight Him. That rules out the beast's already having come & gone. You simply have no valid argument.

 

[Lodic]

The events haven't happened, so you have no basis for your argument.

It was JESUS-not I-who said He would return, & the beast & his army would seek to fight Him. That rules out the beast's already having come & gone. You simply have no valid argument.

Let's see - you can't get past changing what Jesus Himself said about those events coming to pass within the lifetime of His disciples, yet, I am the one who has no basis for my argument. Sure, you go with that . To paraphrase your own post, it was JESUS - not I - who said "all these things" (meaning the Great Tribulation, AOD, etc) would happen soon. It was JESUS - not I - who told them "when YOU see these things". That rules out the Beast's future coming, since it's already happened.

[EDIT] When Jesus’ clear words don’t suit the "futurist" view, words are removed, new words added, and Greek words redefined. “This generation” becomes, “the generation that sees these signs,” as if Jesus was addressing a generation other than the one to whom He was speaking. Jesus made it clear that it was His present audience (the repeated use of the second person plural “you” throughout Matthew 24) that would “see all these things”.

 

[robycop3]

Let's see - you can't get past changing what Jesus Himself said about those events coming to pass within the lifetime of His disciples, yet, I am the one who has no basis for my argument. Sure, you go with that . To paraphrase your own post, it was JESUS - not I - who said "all these things" (meaning the Great Tribulation, AOD, etc) would happen soon. It was JESUS - not I - who told them "when YOU see these things". That rules out the Beast's future coming, since it's already happened.

Once again... IF THE BEAST HAS ALREADY COME & GONE, HOW COME JESUS ISN'T HERE?????????????

That's the CARDINAL QUESTION! Jesus said that when He returns, the beast & his army will attack Him, in very clear, plain language, no matter which translation(s) you're using, or in the Koine Greek mss. from which our translations are made. Now, you admit that Jesus' return is future. There's no way you can dismiss His words that the beast & FP will seek to make war with Him, but will be captured & cast alive into hell, after which Jesus will rule the world from Jerusalem. There's not one word of Scripture saying that after He returns, He will leave again.

It simply CANNOT be both ways. If the beast has come & gone, Jesus would physically be here, known to everyone on the planet. And we all know He's NOT here now. So, insisting that the beast has come & gone means you DON'T BELIEVE JESUS in Rev. 19! Even if you say the beast was the Roman empire, it isn't here now, either. You're stuck in your conundrum. YOU EITHER BELIEVE GENTRY & DEMAR, OR YOU BELIEVE JESUS! You cannot believe both !

READERS, WHO HAS MADE HIS CASE HERE ?

 

[Lodic]

Once again... IF THE BEAST HAS ALREADY COME & GONE, HOW COME JESUS ISN'T HERE?????????????

That's the CARDINAL QUESTION! Jesus said that when He returns, the beast & his army will attack Him, in very clear, plain language, no matter which translation(s) you're using, or in the Koine Greek mss. from which our translations are made. Now, you admit that Jesus' return is future. There's no way you can dismiss His words that the beast & FP will seek to make war with Him, but will be captured & cast alive into hell, after which Jesus will rule the world from Jerusalem. There's not one word of Scripture saying that after He returns, He will leave again.

It simply CANNOT be both ways. If the beast has come & gone, Jesus would physically be here, known to everyone on the planet. And we all know He's NOT here now. So, insisting that the beast has come & gone means you DON'T BELIEVE JESUS in Rev. 19! Even if you say the beast was the Roman empire, it isn't here now, either. You're stuck in your conundrum. YOU EITHER BELIEVE GENTRY & DEMAR, OR YOU BELIEVE JESUS! You cannot believe both !

READERS, WHO HAS MADE HIS CASE HERE ?

To put it very simply, do you believe the "Left Behind" fantasy promoted by "futurists" who misinterpret Scripture, or do you believe the crystal clear words of Christ. If you believe the "Left Behind" view, you ignore what is taught in Scripture. If you believe Christ, you recognize that "this generation", "soon", and the other time indicators used in the NT mean exactly what they always mean. Did Jesus deliberately confuse His disciples? If yes, this is not the Jesus of the Bible. If no, then these events must have already happened because Jesus said that His disciples would see those events happen. Think about this carefully and prayerfully, then choose whom you should believe.

 

[Oseas3]

The beast from the sea will be the antichrist and his empire. The beast from the earth will be his sidekick, the miracle-working false prophet. They will be in power when the great trib occurs & Jesus returns.

And the beast will have Jerusalem as his capital, as will Jesus after He casts the beast & FP alive into hell & destroys their army.

The Word of GOD reveals that there are TWO MAN Beasts:

The old/ancient Beast of sea-Revelation 13:v.1 to 10;

and the future ruthless Beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb (a false lamb, of course) , and he spake as a Dragon. - Revelation 13:v.11-18

Watch for the Beast?

Which one of the TWO BEASTS are you suggesting looking more specifically at?

Could you identify the Man Beast of sea who has a NAME of blasphemy?

By the way, the Man Beast of the earth will give his Power, and this Throne and great Authority to the Beast of sea, then the Beast of sea will be LINKED to the Man Beast of the earth. And no man will buy or sell, save he that has the mark, or the NAME of the Beast LINKED to the Man Beast of the earth, or the number of his Name - a NAME of blasphemy.. If you know what is the NAME of blasphemy of the Man Beast of sea, then you will be able to count (NOT CALCULATE, BUT COUNT) the number of the Man Beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

By the way, in what place is or will be the Throne of the Man Beast of the earth like a lamb?

Why the Man Beast of the earth will give to the Man Beast of sea his Power, and his Throne and Great Authority? Yeah, what will really be in player in this satanic event?

By the way, your point is to be focused and watching for the Man Beast, no? Which of the two Man Beasts you are watching specifically?

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning
This thread will be closed no sooner than 6 am EST (Wed) / 3 am PST (Wed)

 

[timtofly]

Every time Jesus spoke of "this generation", He always meant the generation He was speaking to. If Jesus meant a different, future generation when He gave the Olivet Discourse, He would have said something like "THAT generation", "the generation THAT SEES THESE EVENTS", etc. Jesus said "THIS generation" and His disciples understood He was talking about their generation.

While Israel becoming a nation again in 1948 was wonderful, and God has blessed them, this has nothing to do with Biblical prophecy. The cursing of the fig tree in Matthew 21 has nothing to do with Israel. Jesus was giving an object lesson on hypocrisy - "all leaf but no fruit".

Jesus clearly said:

"Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

This generation that sees the fig tree bloom. Did the fig tree bloom in the first century?

 

[Cathode]

Every time Jesus spoke of "this generation", He always meant the generation He was speaking to. If Jesus meant a different, future generation when He gave the Olivet Discourse, He would have said something like "THAT generation", "the generation THAT SEES THESE EVENTS", etc. Jesus said "THIS generation" and His disciples understood He was talking about their generation.

While Israel becoming a nation again in 1948 was wonderful, and God has blessed them, this has nothing to do with Biblical prophecy. The cursing of the fig tree in Matthew 21 has nothing to do with Israel. Jesus was giving an object lesson on hypocrisy - "all leaf but no fruit".

Dude, are you paying attention to what’s been happening recently.

Swedes Are Implanting Microchip Vaccine Passports. It Won't Stop There

Implanted vaccine passports.

Already I can’t go to local government facilities for work, lost my contract, can’t buy alcohol in the shop, can’t return to the state if I leave, can’t go to the gym or any event venue with over 500 capacity, without a vaccine passport. This is just phase 1.

Look at what’s happening around the place, events will overtake your interpretation of scripture and you won’t be able to argue that the apocalypse isn’t happening before your very eyes.
Keep your eyes on the weather out there.

 

[Lodic]

Jesus clearly said:

"Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

This generation that sees the fig tree bloom. Did the fig tree bloom in the first century?

Jesus was using the fig tree as an example from nature. He could just as easily have used apples or figs. His point was the things that His disciples would see - Jerusalem surrounded by armies (Luke 21:20), the Gospel preached throughout the Roman Empire (Matthew 24:14), the Abomination of Desolation (Matthew 24:15), etc. As you pointed out, Jesus said "this generation would not pass until all these things are fulfilled". Jesus meant His immediate audience (not a future generation), otherwise He would have said "they", "the generation then living when the fig tree blossoms", etc. There is no such thing as a "fig tree" generation, as it was just an illustration from nature.

 

[Lodic]

Dude, are you paying attention to what’s been happening recently.

Swedes Are Implanting Microchip Vaccine Passports. It Won't Stop There

Implanted vaccine passports.

Already I can’t go to local government facilities for work, lost my contract, can’t buy alcohol in the shop, can’t return to the state if I leave, can’t go to the gym or any event venue with over 500 capacity, without a vaccine passport. This is just phase 1.

Look at what’s happening around the place, events will overtake your interpretation of scripture and you won’t be able to argue that the apocalypse isn’t happening before your very eyes.
Keep your eyes on the weather out there.

I must admit that the events of recent days are really scary. Furthermore, if the events of Revelation were pointing to our day, it could very easily look like that. However, I think it's more coincidence than anything else. WWII looked a lot like the end of the world to their generation. For that matter, the American Civil War had many people convinced they were living in the last days.

Even though @robycop3 and I disagree on the timing of the "end times" events, we agree that all the "end times" prophecies have to happen.