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Water in John 3:5?

atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
percho said:
Exactly what cleanses sin? Frees from sin? Blood?
Click to expand...
Not relevant to John 3:5.

“born of water and the Spirit” is the critical phrase being discussed.
Water:
  • IS NOT “natural birth”; because the need to exist is self evident.
  • IS “cleansing”; irrespective of what ultimately causes that cleansing.
THE POINT of John 3:5 is that cleansing is not enough to gain entry into the KINGDOM; it requires cleansing and spiritual rebirth. A LAW or an action might be able to cleanse, but only God can provide a spiritual rebirth.

So even if Jesus blood wiped away every sin, you would be in the exact same spot as ADAM without a spiritual rebirth into “sonship”. Adam didn’t enter the Kingdom on his righteousness, and neither will we.


John 3:5
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
 
P

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
atpollard said:
Not relevant to John 3:5.

“born of water and the Spirit” is the critical phrase being discussed.
Water:
  • IS NOT “natural birth”; because the need to exist is self evident.
  • IS “cleansing”; irrespective of what ultimately causes that cleansing.
THE POINT of John 3:5 is that cleansing is not enough to gain entry into the KINGDOM; it requires cleansing and spiritual rebirth. A LAW or an action might be able to cleanse, but only God can provide a spiritual rebirth.

So even if Jesus blood wiped away every sin, you would be in the exact same spot as ADAM without a spiritual rebirth into “sonship”. Adam didn’t enter the Kingdom on his righteousness, and neither will we.


John 3:5
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
Click to expand...


I disagree and here is why.

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Gen 1:26
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Gen 2:7

But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels;

Everyone who will see, enter, and inherit the kingdom of God will have to be born of woman that is come into the world through the water and the blood and will then have to be born of the Spirit. All born of women are born just as Adam was made, a little lower than the angels, which is of flesh and blood, which also includes Jesus.
See Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children (Of man V 6) are partakers of flesh and blood, he (Jesus was made a little lower than the angels V 9) also himself likewise took part of the same;
See also 1 John 5:6 relative to Jesus; This one is he who did come through water and blood -- Jesus the Christ, not in the water only, but in the water and the blood; and the Spirit it is that is testifying, because the Spirit is the truth,

John 3 is speaking of being born into the world and being born into the kingdom.

One is, of flesh, through water and blood and the other is, of spirit, through the Spirit.

This question needs to be answered Yes or No.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Cor 15:50

Did that verse apply to Jesus of Nazareth born of the virgin Mary? Yes or No!

One more question.

But God raised him from the dead:
God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. Acts 13:30,33

Is, the day, of Jesus being raised up again, from the dead V 30 spoken of a day of being begotten ie born? A day of being called Son?

Another Yes or No.
 
1689Dave

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
Reynolds said:
What is the water in this verse?
For many years, I held it to be one thing. Now I am wavering between 3 possible meanings
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“For I will take you from among the nations and gather you out of all countries and bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleanness; and from all your idols will I cleanse you. A new heart will I give you and a new spirit will I put within you, and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you shall heed My ordinances and do them. And you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and you shall be My people, and I will be your God. I will also save you from all your uncleannesses, and I will call forth the grain and make it abundant and lay no famine on you.” Ezekiel 36:24–29 (AMP)

“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;” Titus 3:5 (KJV 1900)
 
R

Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
What hasn’t been discussed, so far, is the actual context. Jesus was talking to a Jewish leader and the Jews often thought that they had a birth right to God just because they were children of Abraham.

That is the purpose in the use of the word water which is talking about a physical birth. The Jews believed they automatically had salvation because the were physically born Jews. Which is also why Jesus goes on to say Born again. The very nature of Nicodemus’ question tells us the context of the water when he asks how can a man enter a second time into his mother’s womb.

Jesus said what is born of the flesh ( water) is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit.

context is king
 
1689Dave

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
Revmitchell said:
What hasn’t been discussed, so far, is the actual context. Jesus was talking to a Jewish leader and the Jews often thought that they had a birth right to God just because they were children of Abraham.

That is the purpose in the use of the word water which is talking about a physical birth. The Jews believed they automatically had salvation because the were physically born Jews. Which is also why Jesus goes on to say Born again. The very nature of Nicodemus’ question tells us the context of the water when he asks how can a man enter a second time into his mother’s womb.

Jesus said what is born of the flesh ( water) is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit.

context is king
Click to expand...
Jews were not valid Jews until circumcised on the 8th day. Jews are not a race.
 
atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
percho said:
John 3 is speaking of being born into the world and being born into the kingdom.
Click to expand...
Only Nicodemus is speaking of being born into the world in that conversation, and his point was that it can only happen once so that CAN NOT BE THE REBIRTH that Jesus is speaking of.

Jesus CONTRASTS being born in the flesh with being born into the Kingdom … so “water AND Spirit” of John 3:5 does not fit with a contrast.
 
atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
percho said:
This question needs to be answered Yes or No.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Cor 15:50

Did that verse apply to Jesus of Nazareth born of the virgin Mary? Yes or No!
Click to expand...
Jesus of Nazareth was not part of the audience to whom Paul wrote the Letter 1 Corinthians.
I am not one to tell God the Son what He MUST or CANNOT do.

That is as close as I can come to answering your “How many Angels can dance on the head of a pin?” type of question about whether Christ can inherit the Kingdom of God.

I do not see how that question MUST be answered to discuss or understand John 3:5.
 
atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
percho said:
One more question.

But God raised him from the dead:
God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. Acts 13:30,33

Is, the day, of Jesus being raised up again, from the dead V 30 spoken of a day of being begotten ie born? A day of being called Son?
Click to expand...
Non sequitur.
We are discussing how men enter the Kingdom of God and the “water and Spirit” of John 3:5.


Context:
Acts of the Apostles 13:14-43 [NLT]
14 But Paul and Barnabas traveled inland to Antioch of Pisidia. On the Sabbath they went to the synagogue for the services. 15 After the usual readings from the books of Moses and the prophets, those in charge of the service sent them this message: "Brothers, if you have any word of encouragement for the people, come and give it."

16 So Paul stood, lifted his hand to quiet them, and started speaking. "Men of Israel," he said, "and you God-fearing Gentiles, listen to me.

17 "The God of this nation of Israel chose our ancestors and made them multiply and grow strong during their stay in Egypt. Then with a powerful arm he led them out of their slavery. 18 He put up with them through forty years of wandering in the wilderness. 19 Then he destroyed seven nations in Canaan and gave their land to Israel as an inheritance. 20 All this took about 450 years. "After that, God gave them judges to rule until the time of Samuel the prophet. 21 Then the people begged for a king, and God gave them Saul son of Kish, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, who reigned for forty years. 22 But God removed Saul and replaced him with David, a man about whom God said, 'I have found David son of Jesse, a man after my own heart. He will do everything I want him to do.'

23 "And it is one of King David's descendants, Jesus, who is God's promised Savior of Israel! 24 Before he came, John the Baptist preached that all the people of Israel needed to repent of their sins and turn to God and be baptized. 25 As John was finishing his ministry he asked, 'Do you think I am the Messiah? No, I am not! But he is coming soon--and I'm not even worthy to be his slave and untie the sandals on his feet.'

26 "Brothers--you sons of Abraham, and also you God-fearing Gentiles--this message of salvation has been sent to us! 27 The people in Jerusalem and their leaders did not recognize Jesus as the one the prophets had spoken about. Instead, they condemned him, and in doing this they fulfilled the prophets' words that are read every Sabbath. 28 They found no legal reason to execute him, but they asked Pilate to have him killed anyway.

29 "When they had done all that the prophecies said about him, they took him down from the cross and placed him in a tomb. 30 But God raised him from the dead! 31 And over a period of many days he appeared to those who had gone with him from Galilee to Jerusalem. They are now his witnesses to the people of Israel.

32 "And now we are here to bring you this Good News. The promise was made to our ancestors, 33 and God has now fulfilled it for us, their descendants, by raising Jesus. This is what the second psalm says about Jesus:
'You are my Son.
Today I have become your Father.'

34 For God had promised to raise him from the dead, not leaving him to rot in the grave. He said, 'I will give you the sacred blessings I promised to David.' 35 Another psalm explains it more fully: 'You will not allow your Holy One to rot in the grave.' 36 This is not a reference to David, for after David had done the will of God in his own generation, he died and was buried with his ancestors, and his body decayed. 37 No, it was a reference to someone else--someone whom God raised and whose body did not decay.

38 "Brothers, listen! We are here to proclaim that through this man Jesus there is forgiveness for your sins. 39 Everyone who believes in him is declared right with God--something the law of Moses could never do. 40 Be careful! Don't let the prophets' words apply to you. For they said, 41 'Look, you mockers,
be amazed and die!
For I am doing something in your own day,
something you wouldn't believe
even if someone told you about it.'"

42 As Paul and Barnabas left the synagogue that day, the people begged them to speak about these things again the next week. 43 Many Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, and the two men urged them to continue to rely on the grace of God.
​

percho said:
Another Yes or No.
Click to expand...

No, Jesus was ALWAYS the Son and the Father was ALWAYS the Father.
 
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P

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
atpollard said:
Only Nicodemus is speaking of being born into the world in that conversation, and his point was that it can only happen once so that CAN NOT BE THE REBIRTH that Jesus is speaking of.

Jesus CONTRASTS being born in the flesh with being born into the Kingdom … so “water AND Spirit” of John 3:5 does not fit with a contrast.
Click to expand...

Jesus answered, 'Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born (out) of water, and (of) Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;
that which hath been born (out) of the flesh flesh is, and that which hath been born (out) of the Spirit, spirit is.

Verse 6 establishes the contrast. Born out of water equates to, the flesh and out of, The Spirit equates to spirit.

Let me ask. 1 John 5:6 YLT
This one is he who did come through water and blood -- Jesus the Christ, not in the water only, but in the water and the blood; and the Spirit it is that is testifying, because the Spirit is the truth,

What do you think is the water spoken of there? Whose, water and whose blood is the Spirit of God testifying about there?
I have read 3 commentaries on that verse Barnes, Coffman, Gill and can not understand how none tie what the Spirit of God is testifying to here. Just go back one chapter and see and believe what the Spirit of truth testifies. And none of the above do that.

Beloved, every spirit believe not, but prove the spirits, if of God they are, because many false prophets have gone forth to the world; in this know ye the Spirit of God; every spirit that doth confess Jesus Christ in the flesh having come, of God it is, and every spirit that doth not confess Jesus Christ in the flesh having come, of God it is not; and this is that of the antichrist, which ye heard that it doth come, and now in the world it is already. 1 John 4:1-3 YLT

That water and blood is about Jesus Christ coming in the flesh, His birth by the virgin Mary. Through the water and the blood of Mary.

The man child of Rev 12 :2,5 is Jesus and whoever or whatever you believe the woman is this is stated; And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. ---- If Mary as I believe, do you think her water broke and she bleed giving birth to Jesus the Christ?
 
P

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
because also Christ once for sin did suffer -- righteous for unrighteous -- that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the spirit, 1 Peter 3:18
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born out of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth; to him who did love us, and did bathe us from our sins in his blood,
so also it hath been written, 'The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit, but that which is spiritual is not first, but that which was natural, afterwards that which is spiritual. 1 Cor 15:45,46 Remember to date Jesus is the only one born of woman who has experienced this.

All of those in bold are time specific and at the same moment. Is that spoken of as a spiritual birth?

that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6
 
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