Way of Arminian Baptists forum

[Iconoclast]

Not one of your passages mentions the will being free
You show nothing but error,but you are content with your error.
You do not want interaction at this point, you think you are okay.
No need to waste time here.

Good. In order not to waste time, you just answer me, if you do not have the will to choose something, then why are you just asked to do something that automatically implies the presence of free will?

If you have no will, how can you fulfill the command to choose your faith voluntarily?

If you have no will, how can you voluntarily repent?

If you have no will, how can you voluntarily bring forth the fruits of repentance of your own free will?
====================================================
You reject the obvious.[/QUOTE]
I did not say man has no will evidently you're not reading the post so this no sense to answer you if you're not going to read the posts why should I answer

 

[Strannik]

What and who blinds the minds of those who do not believe?
1 John 2:15-17
15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world.
17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

Who is the prince of this world?
John 14:30
I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me.

2 Corinthians 4
3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

God will shine in our hearts only if He has determined to save us, at the proper time, God then reveals Christ inside of us.
in effect, we are born again, and then He is shining in our heart.
We have nothing to do with this. God's Spirit moves where He wills. You see the effects of the wind, but it is an invisible force. The wind blows where IT WISHES.
And you can not perceive-understand the kingdom of God, as in who Christ is unless your first Born Again.

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

Other than Christ setting you free from sin, your not free, no humans are truly free, either your slaves of sin, or slaves of God.
Every person has a master that rules over them.

1 Corinthians 12
3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

Since this is true
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Notice, you cant believe and say so except by the Spirit of God.
Your believing unto salvation is entirely then the gift of God.

But note that Christ said the words that you should turn to an unborn person from above. In the Scriptures, in general, all calls for repentance and conversion refer precisely to the unborn.

Remember the centurion Cornelius.

He led a pious life as a non-reborn Christian, as he had clearly chosen to serve the Most High God long before.

He even prayed and God heard him long before the Holy Spirit descended on him.
========================
30 Cornelius said, " On the fourth day I fasted until this hour, and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in a light robe,
31 And he said, Cornelius! your prayer is heard, and your alms are remembered before God.
32 So go to Joppa and call for Simon, who is called Peter; he is staying in the house of Simon the tanner by the sea; he will come and tell you.
33 Immediately I sent to you, and you did well to come. Now we are all present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.
34 Peter opened his mouth and said, " Truly, I know that God has no regard for persons.",
35 But in every nation, he who fears him and does what is right is pleasing to Him.
36 He sent the word to the children of Israel, proclaiming peace through Jesus Christ, who is the Lord of all.
37 You know what happened throughout all Judea, beginning in Galilee, after the baptism preached by John:
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and he went about doing good and healing all who were possessed by the devil, because God was with Him.
39 And we are witnesses of all that he did in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, and that at last he was killed by hanging on a tree.
40 This man God raised up on the third day, and gave him to appear.
41 Not to all the people, but to the witnesses who were chosen from God, to us, who ate and drank with him, after his resurrection from the dead.
42 And he commanded us to preach to the people, and to bear witness that He is the appointed Judge of the living and the dead from God.
43 All the prophets bear witness of him, that whosoever believeth in him shall receive the remission of sins in his name.
44 While Peter was still speaking, the Holy Spirit came upon all who were listening to the word.
(Acts II.10:30-44)

 

[AustinC]

1). " Who wrote the above comment? It looks like Iconoclast wrote something."
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I have some error in the message there. It seems that part of someone else's message got into it.
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2). ???
You confuse free will with freedom of speech. Slaves can express themselves freely, but they can never be free from their master.
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It seems that you are confusing something, although freedom of speech also depends on free will. If you don't have the will, you can't say a free word.
And in the Scriptures there are calls to act according to the will, and not just a request for ranting.
======================================
3) why is the same not true. Without the will and desire to believe in Moses, one cannot choose between the Law of Moses and the old life.
============================
4). You don't understand the fact that Jesus is calling for a change of master.
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30 When He said this, many believed in Him.
31 Then Jesus said to the Jews who believed in him, " If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples.",
32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.
33 They answered him:
34 Jesus answered them, " Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is a servant of sin."
35 But the servant does not abide in the house forever; the son abides forever.
36 Therefore, if the Son sets you free, you will truly be free.
37 I know that you are the seed of Abraham, but you seek to kill me, because my word does not fit in you.
38 I say what I have seen with my Father, but you do what you have seen with your father.
39 They answered and said to him, " Our father is Abraham." Jesus said to them, " If you were the children of Abraham, you would do the works of Abraham."
40 And now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth, which I have heard from God: Abraham did not do this.
41 You do the works of your father. And they said to him, " We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, God."
42 Jesus said to them, " If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I came from God and came; for I did not come from Myself, but He sent Me."
43 Why do you not understand my speech? Because you can't hear My words.
44 Your father is the devil, and you want to fulfill the lusts of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning and did not stand in the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks his own, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
45 But because I speak the truth, you do not believe me.
46 Which of you will accuse me of unrighteousness? But if I speak the truth, why do you not believe me?
47 He who is of God listens to the words of God. You do not listen because you are not of God.
48 To this the Jews answered and said to him, "Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan, and that you have a demon?"
49 Jesus answered, " I have no demon; but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me."
50 But I do not seek my glory: there is one who seeks and judges.
51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever keepeth my word, he shall never see death.
(John.8:30-51)

16 Do you not know that to whom you give yourselves as servants to obey, you are also servants to whom you obey, or servants of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness?
17 Thank God that you, who were formerly servants of sin, have become obedient from the heart to the way of teaching to which you have given yourself up.
18 But when you were delivered from sin, you became servants of righteousness.
19 I speak according to the reasoning of men, for the sake of the weakness of your flesh. As you have given your members as servants to uncleanness and iniquity for unrighteous works, so now present your members as servants of righteousness for holy works.
20 For when you were servants of sin, you were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit did you have then? These things, which you are now ashamed for the end of those things is death.
22 But now that you have been delivered from sin and become servants to God, your fruit is holiness, and the end is eternal life.
23 For the wages of sin is death, and the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(Rom. 6: 16-23)

"if the Son sets you free"

That's the answer. God must choose to set you free. It's in the scripture you quote, yet you still demand that humans must set themselves free by their own willful attempt.

You teach salvation by the law, not by grace.

 

[Strannik]

Good. In order not to waste time, you just answer me, if you do not have the will to choose something, then why are you just asked to do something that automatically implies the presence of free will?

If you have no will, how can you fulfill the command to choose your faith voluntarily?

If you have no will, how can you voluntarily repent?

If you have no will, how can you voluntarily bring forth the fruits of repentance of your own free will?
====================================================
You reject the obvious.

I did not say man has no will evidently you're not reading the post so this no sense to answer you if you're not going to read the posts why should I answer[/QUOTE]
Sorry, but I read all the messages and respond to them.
Although if you have already become irritated, then you can stop discussing this issue.

God's blessings to you, we will still remain in our opinion, since I clearly see that a person, although imperfect and very sick, still has his own will.
====================================

 

[Yeshua1]

I read the creed of 1689 and found nothing to refute my beliefs about Calvinism.

The creed is a good summery of Calvinism, but we hold the only inspired source to be the Bible!

 

[Yeshua1]

You confuse the sinful nature with the duty to sin.
Although it is said that we are slaves of sin, but even slaves rebel against slaveholders, and people do not always sin, but sometimes even sinners do something good.

Jesus did not just as often set the example of the Gentiles, who certainly went to perdition.

We are all enslaved to sin as our master until born again!

 

[Scott Downey]

But note that Christ said the words that you should turn to an unborn person from above. In the Scriptures, in general, all calls for repentance and conversion refer precisely to the unborn.

Remember the centurion Cornelius.

He led a pious life as a non-reborn Christian, as he had clearly chosen to serve the Most High God long before.

He even prayed and God heard him long before the Holy Spirit descended on him.
========================
30 Cornelius said, " On the fourth day I fasted until this hour, and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in a light robe,
31 And he said, Cornelius! your prayer is heard, and your alms are remembered before God.
32 So go to Joppa and call for Simon, who is called Peter; he is staying in the house of Simon the tanner by the sea; he will come and tell you.
33 Immediately I sent to you, and you did well to come. Now we are all present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.
34 Peter opened his mouth and said, " Truly, I know that God has no regard for persons.",
35 But in every nation, he who fears him and does what is right is pleasing to Him.
36 He sent the word to the children of Israel, proclaiming peace through Jesus Christ, who is the Lord of all.
37 You know what happened throughout all Judea, beginning in Galilee, after the baptism preached by John:
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and he went about doing good and healing all who were possessed by the devil, because God was with Him.
39 And we are witnesses of all that he did in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, and that at last he was killed by hanging on a tree.
40 This man God raised up on the third day, and gave him to appear.
41 Not to all the people, but to the witnesses who were chosen from God, to us, who ate and drank with him, after his resurrection from the dead.
42 And he commanded us to preach to the people, and to bear witness that He is the appointed Judge of the living and the dead from God.
43 All the prophets bear witness of him, that whosoever believeth in him shall receive the remission of sins in his name.
44 While Peter was still speaking, the Holy Spirit came upon all who were listening to the word.
(Acts II.10:30-44)

So when did Cornelius become saved?
He was saved before the gift of the Holy Spirit fell on them. Remember the early church had many gifts of the Spirit as supernatural signs.
Getting saved is a process, which begins with becoming born again first by GOD's Spirit, and ends with your believing from the heart God raised Christ from the dead, and confessing Jesus is Lord. Cornelius is a good example of how people are born again by GOD before they confess Christ and are 'saved' as in 'sealed' in the Holy Spirit.
In these Gentiles situation, they were born of God, then they were enabled to believe in Christ, and there was some time between these 2 things

Ephesians 1 demonstrates this.

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Acts 11
13 And he told us how he had seen an angel standing in his house, who said to him, ‘Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon whose surname is Peter, 14 who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.’

17 If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?”

18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.”

Now notice v8, at this point God had made Cornelius born of God. But his salvation was not yet completed.

8 But I said, ‘Not so, Lord! For nothing common or unclean has at any time entered my mouth.’ 9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, ‘What God has cleansed you must not call common.’ 10 Now this was done three times, and all were drawn up again into heaven.

 

[Strannik]

The creed is a good summery of Calvinism, but we hold the only inspired source to be the Bible!

I agree with you.The fact is that the highest authority in the Teaching is not any interpretation of the Bible in the form of creeds, symbols of faith or something else, but that the Bible itself.

 

[Strannik]

We are all enslaved to sin as our master until born again!

However, any slave, when offered to choose freedom instead of slavery, is able to choose freedom of his own free will.

 

[Strannik]

So when did Cornelius become saved?
He was saved before the gift of the Holy Spirit fell on them. Remember the early church had many gifts of the Spirit as supernatural signs.
Getting saved is a process, which begins with becoming born again first by GOD's Spirit, and ends with your believing from the heart God raised Christ from the dead, and confessing Jesus is Lord. Cornelius is a good example of how people are born again by GOD before they confess Christ and are 'saved' as in 'sealed' in the Holy Spirit.
In these Gentiles situation, they were born of God, then they were enabled to believe in Christ, and there was some time between these 2 things

Ephesians 1 demonstrates this.

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Acts 11
13 And he told us how he had seen an angel standing in his house, who said to him, ‘Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon whose surname is Peter, 14 who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.’

17 If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?”

18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.”

Now notice v8, at this point God had made Cornelius born of God. But his salvation was not yet completed.

8 But I said, ‘Not so, Lord! For nothing common or unclean has at any time entered my mouth.’ 9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, ‘What God has cleansed you must not call common.’ 10 Now this was done three times, and all were drawn up again into heaven.

Well, do you admit that Cornelius led a pious life long before Peter and Christianity in general appeared in his life?
Yes, and we are all saved before we come to the Church, since the Sacrament of our Salvation took place before the appearance of the Church on the Day of the descent of the Holy Spirit.
But the fact of the matter is that all this does not negate the simple fact that people have at least some personal will to believe God on their own, at least somehow, even though we naturally need His help.
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24 Immediately the boy's father cried out with tears, " I believe, Lord." help my unbelief.
(Mar. 9: 24)

 

[Scott Downey]

Well, do you admit that Cornelius led a pious life long before Peter and Christianity in general appeared in his life?
Yes, and we are all saved before we come to the Church, since the Sacrament of our Salvation took place before the appearance of the Church on the Day of the descent of the Holy Spirit.
But the fact of the matter is that all this does not negate the simple fact that people have at least some personal will to believe God on their own, at least somehow, even though we naturally need His help.
--------------------------------------------------------
24 Immediately the boy's father cried out with tears, " I believe, Lord." help my unbelief.
(Mar. 9: 24)

Definitely need lots of help in believing unto salvation.
People can be wishy washy, everyone believes something.
But no one can know Christ unless Christ wills that they know Him.
God's people will be willing when He shows His power working in them.

psalm 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

The Father reveals the Truth about who Christ is to BABES. (such as newborn babes born of God) You must be born of God to know Christ.
Luke 10
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.

22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

 

[Strannik]

Definitely need lots of help in believing unto salvation.
People can be wishy washy, everyone believes something.
But no one can know Christ unless Christ wills that they know Him.
God's people will be willing when He shows His power working in them.

psalm 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

The Father reveals the Truth about who Christ is to BABES. (such as newborn babes born of God) You must be born of God to know Christ.
Luke 10
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.

22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

Well, you yourself admit that God gives us faith and helps us to cultivate it, but to accept it or reject it is our own business.

 

[AustinC]

Well, you yourself admit that God gives us faith and helps us to cultivate it, but to accept it or reject it is our own business.

Where does the Bible tell humans they get to accept or reject faith? Please provide specific scripture that tells us this very claim that you make.

There is no verse.

Now, you can find verses where Jesus tells his disciples they have little faith, but you cannot find a verse saying humans can accept or reject faith.

You never find a verse where Jesus goes up to a pagan and says "I have a jar of faith to give you. Will you accept it or will you reject it?"

Strannik, your theology is not built on sound scripture.

 

[Strannik]

Where does the Bible tell humans they get to accept or reject faith? Please provide specific scripture that tells us this very claim that you make.

There is no verse.

Now, you can find verses where Jesus tells his disciples they have little faith, but you cannot find a verse saying humans can accept or reject faith.

You never find a verse where Jesus goes up to a pagan and says "I have a jar of faith to give you. Will you accept it or will you reject it?"

Strannik, your theology is not built on sound scripture.

It is about Christ's command to believe in Him and in Him.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me; but if not, believe me in the very works.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do, he also will do, and more than these he will do; for I go to my Father.
(John.14:11,12)
================================

And this means that Christ was not sent to the Gentiles, but to the Jews. but according to the faith of the Gentile woman, who was outside of the Church, and outside of Israel, Christ still marked her faith.

24 But he answered and said: I am sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 And she came and bowed down to him, and said, Lord! help me.
26 But he answered and said, " It is not good to take bread from the children and throw it to the dogs."
27 She said, " Yes, Lord." but the dogs also eat the crumbs that fall from the table of their masters.
28 Then Jesus answered and said to her, " O woman! great is your faith; let it be done to you according to your desire. And her daughter was healed in that hour.
(Matthew 15: 24-28)

 

[AustinC]

It is about Christ's command to believe in Him and in Him.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me; but if not, believe me in the very works.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do, he also will do, and more than these he will do; for I go to my Father.
(John.14:11,12)
================================

And this means that Christ was not sent to the Gentiles, but to the Jews. but according to the faith of the Gentile woman, who was outside of the Church, and outside of Israel, Christ still marked her faith.

24 But he answered and said: I am sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 And she came and bowed down to him, and said, Lord! help me.
26 But he answered and said, " It is not good to take bread from the children and throw it to the dogs."
27 She said, " Yes, Lord." but the dogs also eat the crumbs that fall from the table of their masters.
28 Then Jesus answered and said to her, " O woman! great is your faith; let it be done to you according to your desire. And her daughter was healed in that hour.
(Matthew 15: 24-28)

So, based upon this we can conclude that the Bible never says humans get to accept or reject faith. You have made my point.

 

[Strannik]

So, based upon this we can conclude that the Bible never says humans get to accept or reject faith. You have made my point.

In the sense of not accepting or rejecting faith?
Christ personally testified to a woman's faith even before the Church was established.
Here we see an example of how Christ, on the contrary, called her to think about Who and for what she believes, because for the Jews he was just a "pagan dog", but she, despite all obstacles, still decided to trust Christ and believed Him.
==================================

To listen to you, on the contrary, you simply deprive a lot of people of faith. You do everything so that they become discouraged and eventually fall away from the living faith in Christ the Redeemer.

 

[Brightfame52]

I have a question. How do you believe in them? How do you interpret them?
Don't you see that God makes it possible for all people to be saved?

So its fair to say that you believe that the Death of Christ in and of itself doesnt save anyone, correct ?

 

[Brightfame52]

Some hold to double predestination, while some of us do not!

You dont believe God predestinated some to hell for their sins, so that He will demonstrate His Justice for sin, in contrast with having predestinated some to eternal Glory so that He will demonstrate His Mercy ? I do, see Rom 9:20-23

 

[AustinC]

2 Corinthians 4:1-6

Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart. But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

 

[Strannik]

So its fair to say that you believe that the Death of Christ in and of itself doesnt save anyone, correct ?

The point is that I believe that Christ died and rose again for the WHOLE world, and not just for a bunch of pre-elected people whom God supposedly made saved in the first place.
---------------------------------

15 But Christ died for all, so that those who live no longer live for themselves, but for him who died for them and rose again.
(2 Corinthians 5: 15)