• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Way of Arminian Baptists forum

Status
Not open for further replies.
Strannik

Strannik

Member
Brightfame52 said:
You dont believe God predestinated some to hell for their sins, so that He will demonstrate His Justice for sin, in contrast with having predestinated some to eternal Glory so that He will demonstrate His Mercy ? I do, see Rom 9:20-23
Click to expand...
Don't you confuse "de jure" predestination with "de facto" predestination?"?
========================

According to the Law, sinners are not predestined to perish like ordinary violators of ordinary laws - this is "de jure".

When God personally predestines each person to eternal torment, this is already a personal predestination of each person according to the fact of his very existence - this is "de facto".

Do you think God created each person with the mark "you are going to perdition"?
 
B

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
stran

The point is that I believe that Christ died and rose again for the WHOLE world, and not just for a bunch of pre-elected people
Click to expand...

Then you dont believe the Truth friend. Christ did only die for Gods Chosen Elect, the Sheep, the Body of Christ.
 
B

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Strannik said:
Don't you confuse "de jure" predestination with "de facto" predestination?"?
========================

According to the Law, sinners are not predestined to perish like ordinary violators of ordinary laws - this is "de jure".

When God personally predestines each person to eternal torment, this is already a personal predestination of each person according to the fact of his very existence - this is "de facto".

Do you think God created each person with the mark "you are going to perdition"?
Click to expand...
Yes God created some as vessels of wrath, fits them for destruction Rom 9:20-21. Thats according to scripture
 
SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
Brightfame52 said:
Yes God created some as vessels of wrath, fits them for destruction Rom 9:20-21. Thats according to scripture
Click to expand...

WHY does God "bear with these with much longsuffering"? if they are going to hell anyway? This is something that no reformed person can actually deal with!
 
Strannik

Strannik

Member
Brightfame52 said:
stran



Then you dont believe the Truth friend. Christ did only die for Gods Chosen Elect, the Sheep, the Body of Christ.
Click to expand...
You have perverted the Word of God:
-----------------------------------------------
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(John 3: 16)
------------------
Anyone can believe.
=========================
14 For the love of Christ embraces us, who reason thus: if one died for all, then all died.
15 But Christ died for all, so that those who live no longer live for themselves, but for him who died for them and rose again.
16 Therefore henceforth we know no one according to the flesh; but if we knew Christ according to the flesh, we no longer know him.
17 So whoever is in Christ is a new creature; the old things have passed away, and now all things are new.
18 Yet from God, who by Jesus Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 For God in Christ reconciled the world to himself, without imputing to men their transgressions, and gave us the word of reconciliation.
(2 Corinthians 5: 14-19)
--------------------------------------------------
Christ died for the whole world, and God in Christ reconciled the whole world to Himself, not just a group of people.
==================================================
28 Come to me, all you who labor and are burdened, and I will give you rest.;
(Matthew 11: 28)
----------------------------------------------------------
Christ Himself calls for all those in need to come to him, and not just a group of people.
===================================================
Is this not enough for you or more?

God commands EVERYONE, EVERYWHERE, that is, ALL over THE WORLD, to repent of their sins and turn to Christ.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
30 So, leaving the times of ignorance, God now commands all men everywhere to repent,
(Acts 1: 30).17:30)
 
A

AustinC

Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace said:
WHY does God "bear with these with much longsuffering"? if they are going to hell anyway? This is something that no reformed person can actually deal with!
Click to expand...
It's actually something you can't deal with, which is why you resort to creative biblical interpretation and accusing God.
 
A

AustinC

Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace said:
Luke 22:20 says that Jesus also died for Judas! another Truth rejected by the "reformed"!
Click to expand...
I read the verse. It does not say what you claim it says. Nowhere in the verse does it say "Jesus died for Judas." Got any other verse out of context as a prooftext for your pretext?
 
Strannik

Strannik

Member
Brightfame52 said:
Yes God created some as vessels of wrath, fits them for destruction Rom 9:20-21. Thats according to scripture
Click to expand...
You have again perverted the very meaning of the text.
God did not make sinful people as vessels for dirt.
There is actually a discussion why God Himself judges Who He wants and how He wants, and if we remember the Pharaoh, the Lord gave Him time to think again, even though He knew in advance that the Pharaoh would die, as in principle we can know about people who are extremely arrogant and arrogant.
Yes, and Paul makes it clear that no one will be saved by good deeds, but :

8 But what does the Scripture say? The word is near to you, in your mouth and in your heart, that is, the word of faith that we preach.
9 For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is the Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved,
10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, " Whoever believes in him will not be ashamed."
12 for there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon Him.
13 For whoever calls on the name of the LORD will be saved.
(ROM.10:8-13)
================================================

So here we see that the "vessels of wrath" are not people specially created for sin, but those who voluntarily rejected the Right Word, the Word of Grace, and did not believe in Christ.
 
Strannik

Strannik

Member
AustinC said:
I read the verse. It does not say what you claim it says. Nowhere in the verse does it say "Jesus died for Judas." Got any other verse out of context as a prooftext for your pretext?
Click to expand...
20 And also the cup after supper, saying,: This cup is the New Testament in My blood, which is shed for you.
21 And behold, the hand of him who betrays me is with me at the table;
22 However, the Son of Man goes according to his destiny, but woe to the man to whom he gives himself up.
23 And they began to ask one another which of them would do it.
(LK.22:20-23)
=========================================
Jesus incidentally noted that the traitor is next to Him, and this is both Judas and Peter.
Only Peter repented of the sin of treachery. But Judas is not.

And in general, Christ died for the whole world, and this means for His traitors, too.
 
Strannik

Strannik

Member
AustinC said:
It's actually something you can't deal with, which is why you resort to creative biblical interpretation and accusing God.
Click to expand...
God is accused and slandered precisely by the Calvinists, since it is the Calvinists who teach that God did not save everyone, contrary to His own words, but only a handful of people created in advance.
 
I

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
SavedByGrace said:
YOUR false teaching of salvation! :Geek
Click to expand...

If you read your bible more, perhaps you would have noticed these verses;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place,
having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Done deal,,,,Having obtained... On the cross Jesus said It is finished.
 
SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
Iconoclast said:
If you read your bible more, perhaps you would have noticed these verses;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place,
having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Done deal,,,,Having obtained... On the cross Jesus said It is finished.
Click to expand...

Don't forget John 3.16 the Biblical understand of it and not the reformed
 
Strannik

Strannik

Member
Iconoclast said:
If you read your bible more, perhaps you would have noticed these verses;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place,
having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Done deal,,,,Having obtained... On the cross Jesus said It is finished.
Click to expand...
Sorry, but you need to clarify that God said a lot of things that it is given to His people in eternal possession, but there was always a condition:
"IF YOU YOURSELVES DO NOT DEPART FROM MY COMMANDMENTS."
So there is only the promise that the Lord nothing is taken away and the other to choose not to be able to, but we lose it will be able to:
-------------------------------------
12 take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, so that you do not depart from the living God.
13 But instruct one another every day, as long as it is possible to say, `Now,' so that none of you will be hardened by being deceived by sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we only keep the life we have begun firmly to the end,
15 As long as it is said, ' Now, when you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts, as in the time of murmuring.'
16 For some of those who heard it murmured, but not all those who came out of Egypt with Moses.
17 But who did he resent for forty years?
18 Against whom did he swear that they would not enter into his rest, if not against the disobedient?
19 So we see that they could not enter because of their unbelief.
(Heb. 3: 12-19)
--------
1 Therefore let us be wary, lest, while the promise remains to enter into his rest, any of you should be found late.
2 For it was announced to us, as it was to them; but the word that was heard did not profit them, because it was not dissolved by the faith of those who heard it.
3 But we who believe enter into the rest, because He said, 'I swore in my anger that they would not enter into my rest,' even though His works were done in the beginning of the world.
4 For there is no place where it is said of the seventh day: and God rested on the seventh day from all his works.
5 And again here, ' They shall not enter into my rest.'
6 it still remains that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief,
7 else defines a certain day, `today', saying through David after so long a time; as it is said: `today, if you hear His voice, harden not your hearts'.
(Heb.4:1-7)
=======================================
So here we see that "some did not enter" not because they were simply not pre-elected, but because they were not submissive and rejected the Truth themselves
 
A

AustinC

Well-Known Member
Strannik said:
Sorry, but you need to clarify that God said a lot of things that it is given to His people in eternal possession, but there was always a condition:
"IF YOU YOURSELVES DO NOT DEPART FROM MY COMMANDMENTS."
So there is only the promise that the Lord nothing is taken away and the other to choose not to be able to, but we lose it will be able to:
-------------------------------------
12 take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, so that you do not depart from the living God.
13 But instruct one another every day, as long as it is possible to say, `Now,' so that none of you will be hardened by being deceived by sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we only keep the life we have begun firmly to the end,
15 As long as it is said, ' Now, when you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts, as in the time of murmuring.'
16 For some of those who heard it murmured, but not all those who came out of Egypt with Moses.
17 But who did he resent for forty years?
18 Against whom did he swear that they would not enter into his rest, if not against the disobedient?
19 So we see that they could not enter because of their unbelief.
(Heb. 3: 12-19)
--------
1 Therefore let us be wary, lest, while the promise remains to enter into his rest, any of you should be found late.
2 For it was announced to us, as it was to them; but the word that was heard did not profit them, because it was not dissolved by the faith of those who heard it.
3 But we who believe enter into the rest, because He said, 'I swore in my anger that they would not enter into my rest,' even though His works were done in the beginning of the world.
4 For there is no place where it is said of the seventh day: and God rested on the seventh day from all his works.
5 And again here, ' They shall not enter into my rest.'
6 it still remains that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief,
7 else defines a certain day, `today', saying through David after so long a time; as it is said: `today, if you hear His voice, harden not your hearts'.
(Heb.4:1-7)
=======================================
So here we see that "some did not enter" not because they were simply not pre-elected, but because they were not submissive and rejected the Truth themselves
Click to expand...
2 Corinthians 4:1-6

Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart. But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top