Way of Arminian Baptists forum

[Strannik]

And again, I apologize, but the words you quoted have nothing to do with you, because I showed you a lot of text from the Holy Scriptures that unequivocally refute your error, and you just pulled out the text from the Epistle to the Corinthians, which by the way Paul said that they SIN with sins that even the Gentiles were shocked.
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1 And I could not speak to you, brethren, as to the spiritual, but as to the carnal, as to the infants in Christ. (1 Cor.3:1)
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1 There is a true rumor that you have committed fornication, and such fornication as is not heard even among the Gentiles, that a man has his father's wife instead of his wife. 2 And you are proud, instead of weeping rather, that he who has done such a thing may be taken out from among you. 3 And I am absent in body, but present you with the spirit, have judged already, as though I were you: so done this deed, 4 when you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 delivered to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 6 You have nothing to brag about. Don't you know that a little leaven leavens the whole dough? 7 Therefore purify the old leaven, that it may be a new test for you, for you are without leaven, for our Passover, Christ, was slain for us. 8 Therefore let us celebrate not with the old leaven, not with the leaven of vice and deceit, but with the unleavened bread of purity and truth. 9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with fornicators; 10 yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or predators, or with idolaters; for then must get you out of this world. 11 But I have written to you not to associate with him who, being called a brother, remains a fornicator, or a covetous man, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a rapacious man. 12 For what am I to judge even the outsiders? Don't you judge the inner ones? 13 But God judges the outsiders. So cast out the corrupt one from among you. (1 Corinthians 5: 1-13)
==========================
And now in this Epistle Paul writes
As we can see, Paul called for an end to the punishment for those who repented of their sins, so that Satan would not harm him and the Church, since a Christian could fall away from the Church altogether.

1 Therefore I have judged within myself not to come to you again with sorrow. 2 For if I grieve you, who will make me glad but he who is grieved with me? 3 This is what I wrote to you, that when I came I might not be grieved by those for whom I should have rejoiced: for I am sure in all of you that my joy is joy for all of you. 4 Out of great sorrow and a troubled heart, I wrote to you with many tears, not to grieve you, but that you might know the love that I have in abundance for you. 5 But if anyone has grieved, it has not grieved me, but in part, not to say much, and all of you. 6 This punishment from many is sufficient for such a person, 7 so it is better for you to forgive him and comfort him, so that he will not be consumed by excessive sorrow. 8 Therefore, I ask you to show him your love. 9 For this is why I have written, that I may know by experience whether you are obedient in all things. 10 to whom ye forgive, and I have to; for me, what if I forgave someone, forgive you on behalf of Christ, 11 lest us by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his devices. (2 Corinthians 2: 1-11)
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[Strannik]

Here Paul draws the attention of the Corinthians to the fact that the ministry of Christians is higher than that of Moses. Then he was bound to do just what was written, and today we are bound to do not just what is written, but also what is supported by the Personal Testimony of the Holy Spirit in us.
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1 Do we really need to get to know you again? Or do we need, as some, letters of recommendation to you or from you? 2 You are our Epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3 and you show him that you are a letter of Christ through our Ministry, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone, but upon the fleshly tables of the heart. 4 We have such confidence in God through Christ, 5 not because we ourselves are able to think of anything from ourselves, as if from ourselves, but our ability is from God. 6 He made us able Ministers of the New Covenant, not of letter but of spirit; for the letter kills, but the spirit giveth life. 7 but If the Ministry lethal letters inscribed on stone, was so glorious that the Israelites could not look at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face is momentary, - 8 is not much more to be nice to the spirit of service? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation is glorious, the ministry of justification is all the more glorious. (2 Corinthians 3: 1-9)
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And here Paul explains that he did not deceive or pervert the Word of God, but if someone does not understand it and continues to disbelieve, it is someone who has betrayed himself and the god of this world has blinded him with his lies.

1 Therefore, having such a ministry by the grace of God, we do not lose heart; 2 But, rejecting hidden shameful deeds, not resorting to cunning and not distorting the word of God, but revealing the truth, we present ourselves to the conscience of every person before God. 3 But if our gospel is closed, it is closed to those who perish, 4 to the unbelievers, whose minds have been blinded by the God of this world, so that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of the invisible God, may not shine upon them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus, the Lord; And we are your servants to Jesus, 6 because God, who commanded light to shine out of darkness, has enlightened our hearts to enlighten us with the knowledge of the glory of God in the person of Jesus Christ. (2 Corinthians 4: 1-6)
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Here again, Paul reminds us that the Day of Salvation is NOW and means that we must live according to our rank, so as not to perish.

1 But we, as your companions, beseech you, that the grace of God may not be received in vain. 2 For it is written, " In a good time I have heard you, and in the day of salvation I have helped you." Behold, now is the good time, behold, now is the Day of Salvation. 3 We are in no way believe stumbling, not to be blamed Ministry, 4 but in all things approving ourselves as the Ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses, 5 under the blows, in prison, in exile, in writings, in vigils, in the posts, 6 in purity, understanding, generosity, kindness, in the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned, 7 in the word of truth, by the power of God; with weapons of righteousness in the right hand and on the left, 8 by honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers us, but we are true; 9 as unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and us, but here, we are alive; we are punished, but we are not killed; 10 us sorrowful, and always rejoicing; as poor, yet enriching many; having nothing, and yet possessing all things. 11 Our lips are opened to you, Corinthians, and our hearts are enlarged. 12 You are not cramped in us, but your hearts are cramped. 13 In equal retribution, I say, as to children, you will also spread out. 14 Do not bow down under the yoke of others with the unbelievers, for what is the fellowship of righteousness with iniquity? What does light have in common with darkness? 15 What is the agreement between Christ and Belial? Or what part has a believer with an infidel? 16 What is the compatibility of the temple of God with the idols? For ye are the temple of the living God, as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Therefore go out from among them, and separate yourselves, saith the LORD, and touch not the unclean; and I will receive you. 18 And I will be your Father, and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty. (2 Corinthians 6: 1-18) --------------------------

And here Paul says that if someone was upset by writing about the loss of their salvation, he does not regret it, but is only glad.
This chapter, by the way, clearly speaks about the possibility of losing salvation, according to the will of man.

8 Therefore, if I have grieved you with the message, I do not regret it, although I did regret it; for I see that the message has grieved you, but only for a time.
9 Now I rejoice, not because you are grieved, but because you are grieved to repent; for you are grieved for God's sake, so that you have not suffered any harm from us.
10 For sorrow for God's sake produces constant repentance to salvation, but worldly sorrow produces death.
11 For the very fact that you are grieved for God's sake, see what zeal has produced in you, what apologies, what indignation against the guilty, what fear, what desire, what jealousy, what punishment! By all accounts, you have shown yourself to be clean in this matter.
12 Therefore, if I have written to you, it is not for the sake of the offending one, nor for the sake of the offended one, but that our care for you may be revealed to you before God.
13 Therefore we are comforted by your comfort; and we are still more gladdened by the joy of Titus, because you have all calmed his spirit.
14 So I was not ashamed if I boasted of you in any way before him, but just as we told you all the truth, so our praise was true before Titus;
15 and his heart is very well disposed towards you, when he remembers the obedience of all of you, how you received him with fear and trembling.
16 Therefore I rejoice that I can rely on you in all things.
(2 Corinthians 7: 8-16)
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As you can see in these passages of Scripture, Paul wrote about transgressions and about repentance. If in the beginning he rebuked and accused the Corinthians of their sins, in the end he was already glad that they themselves had decided to correct themselves.

 

[AustinC]

God is accused and slandered precisely by the Calvinists, since it is the Calvinists who teach that God did not save everyone, contrary to His own words, but only a handful of people created in advance.

Not true. God is not accused, nor is God slandered.

However, here we see you teaching that God saved everyone. (Universalism)

In other comments you also say that human will is so powerful that humans overthrow God's salvation and chose to be unsaved.

In any viewing of what you say, it becomes clear that you find humans to be the ruler and controller of their own salvation, while God is a lower and passive being who is incapable of being victorious over the human will. Your teaching is anathema.

 

[Brightfame52]

WHY does God "bear with these with much longsuffering"? if they are going to hell anyway? This is something that no reformed person can actually deal with!

He has His reasons. Nevertheless He created them for destruction.

 

[Brightfame52]

this is a LIE!

No it's not.

 

[Brightfame52]

Luke 22:20 says that Jesus also died for Judas! another Truth rejected by the "reformed"!

That is false.

 

[Brightfame52]

You have perverted the Word of God:
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16 For God so loved the world, that he gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(John 3: 16)
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Anyone can believe.
=========================
14 For the love of Christ embraces us, who reason thus: if one died for all, then all died.
15 But Christ died for all, so that those who live no longer live for themselves, but for him who died for them and rose again.
16 Therefore henceforth we know no one according to the flesh; but if we knew Christ according to the flesh, we no longer know him.
17 So whoever is in Christ is a new creature; the old things have passed away, and now all things are new.
18 Yet from God, who by Jesus Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 For God in Christ reconciled the world to himself, without imputing to men their transgressions, and gave us the word of reconciliation.
(2 Corinthians 5: 14-19)
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Christ died for the whole world, and God in Christ reconciled the whole world to Himself, not just a group of people.
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28 Come to me, all you who labor and are burdened, and I will give you rest.;
(Matthew 11: 28)
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Christ Himself calls for all those in need to come to him, and not just a group of people.
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Is this not enough for you or more?

God commands EVERYONE, EVERYWHERE, that is, ALL over THE WORLD, to repent of their sins and turn to Christ.
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30 So, leaving the times of ignorance, God now commands all men everywhere to repent,
(Acts 1: 30).17:30)

You have been deceived Christ specifically said He died for the Sheep. Jn 10

 

[Brightfame52]

You have again perverted the very meaning of the text.
God did not make sinful people as vessels for dirt.
There is actually a discussion why God Himself judges Who He wants and how He wants, and if we remember the Pharaoh, the Lord gave Him time to think again, even though He knew in advance that the Pharaoh would die, as in principle we can know about people who are extremely arrogant and arrogant.
Yes, and Paul makes it clear that no one will be saved by good deeds, but :

8 But what does the Scripture say? The word is near to you, in your mouth and in your heart, that is, the word of faith that we preach.
9 For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is the Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved,
10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, " Whoever believes in him will not be ashamed."
12 for there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon Him.
13 For whoever calls on the name of the LORD will be saved.
(ROM.10:8-13)
================================================

So here we see that the "vessels of wrath" are not people specially created for sin, but those who voluntarily rejected the Right Word, the Word of Grace, and did not believe in Christ.

Yes God made some people vessels of Wrath and fits them for destruction. Rom 9

 

[SavedByGrace]

He has His reasons. Nevertheless He created them for destruction.

where did it say this? YOU have perverted the Word of God!

 

[SavedByGrace]

That is false.

because you cannot admit to the Truth as taught in the Bible, as it will destroy you pet theology!

 

[Strannik]

Not true. God is not accused, nor is God slandered.

However, here we see you teaching that God saved everyone. (Universalism)

In other comments you also say that human will is so powerful that humans overthrow God's salvation and chose to be unsaved.

In any viewing of what you say, it becomes clear that you find humans to be the ruler and controller of their own salvation, while God is a lower and passive being who is incapable of being victorious over the human will. Your teaching is anathema.

Что ж, смотрите сами.
Иисус умер за всех мужчин
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14 Ибо любовь Христова обнимает нас, рассуждающих так: если один умер за всех, то все умерли.
15 Но Христос умер за всех, так что живущие уже не для себя живут, но для умершего за них и воскресшего.
(2 Коринфянам 5: 14,15)

49 Но один из них, некий Каиафа, который был в тот год первосвященником, сказал им: "Вы ничего не знаете,
50 И вы не подумаете, что лучше для нас, чтобы один человек умер за людей, нежели чтобы все люди погибли.
51 Но этого он не сказал о себе, но, когда он был в том году первосвященником, он предсказал, что Иисус умрет за людей.,
52 и не только для людей, но и для того, чтобы собрать рассеянных детей Божьих.
53 С того дня они решили убить Его.
(Иоанна 11: 49-53)
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Его спасение до концов земли.
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47 Ибо вот что повелел нам Господь: Я поставил вас во свет язычников, чтобы вы были спасены до концов земли.
(Деяния II.13: 47)
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Об управлении человеком по собственному желанию.
----------------------------
Самостоятельное наказание:

1. Матфея 3: 2 И говорит: покайтесь,
ибо царство близко.
Небесный.
2. Матфея 4:17 С тех пор
Иисус начал проповедовать и
скажи: "Покайтесь, ибо
приблизилось Царство Небесное ".
3. Отметьте 1:15 и скажите, что
время исполнилось, и
Царство Божие близко,
Покайтесь и верьте в Евангелие.
4. Деяния 2: 38 Но Петр сказал им: "
Покайся и дай ему креститься ».
каждый из вас во имя Иисуса
Christ for the remission of sins; and
receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
5. Acts.3:19 Therefore repent and be
converted, that
your sins may be atoned for,
--------------------------------
"believe" (3)

1. Mark 1: 15 and saying that the
time is fulfilled, and
the kingdom of God is at hand,
Repent, and believe in the gospel.
2. John.12: 36 As long as the light is with you,
believe in the light, that you may be
sons of light. Having said this, Jesus
he walked away and disappeared from them.
3. John.14: 1 Let not
your heart be troubled; believe in God, and in God.
Believe me.
-----------------------------------------

"save yourself" (1)

1. Acts.2:40 And in many other
words he testified and
exhorted, saying,: save yourselves from
this corrupt race.

 

[Strannik]

Not true. God is not accused, nor is God slandered.

However, here we see you teaching that God saved everyone. (Universalism)

In other comments you also say that human will is so powerful that humans overthrow God's salvation and chose to be unsaved.

In any viewing of what you say, it becomes clear that you find humans to be the ruler and controller of their own salvation, while God is a lower and passive being who is incapable of being victorious over the human will. Your teaching is anathema.

About the ability of people to reject salvation in Christ themselves:

8 But I say to you, " Whoever confesses me before men, the Son of Man will also confess me before the angels of God.";
9 But whoever rejects me before men will be rejected before the angels of God.
(LK.12:8,9)
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48 he who Rejects Me and does not receive My words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.
(John.12:48)
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46 Then Paul and Barnabas boldly said, " You were the first to be preached the word of God, but as you reject it and make yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles."
(Acts II.13:46)
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21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and because no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the Antichrist who rejects the Father and the Son.
23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
(1 John.2:21-23)
====================================
And there are many such passages in the Scriptures, or did you not hold the Scripture in your hands at all?

 

[Strannik]

You have been deceived Christ specifically said He died for the Sheep. Jn 10

Jesus died for all men
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47 For this is what the LORD has commanded us: I have placed you in the light of the Gentiles, that you may be saved to the ends of the earth.
(Acts II.13:47)
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Correctly. Although He died for all people, but now only a few have believed in Him, and now they are the sheep of his Flock.

16 So the last shall be first and the first last: for many be called, but few are chosen.
(Matthew 20: 16)

 

[Strannik]

[QUOTE = "Brightfame52, сообщение: 2684861, участник: 18124"] Да, Бог создал для некоторых людей сосуды Гнева и приспособил их к уничтожению. Rom 9 [/ QUOTE]

Here I will simply tell you that you are pulling the text out of the context of the entire Epistle and the entire Bible.
=================================
Predestined the "pots of wrath" before they were born.
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11 For when they were not yet born, and had not done anything good or evil (that the will of God in the election might be done
12 Not from works, but from him who calls), it was said to her, " The greater will be enslaved to the lesser.",
13 As it is written, I loved Jacob, but I hated Esau.
14 What shall we say? Is it not true of God? No way.
15 For He says to Moses: whom to pardon, pardon; one regret, regret.
16 so then it is not of him that willeth not runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, " For this very reason have I appointed you, that I may show my power over you, and that my name may be preached throughout all the earth."
18 So he has mercy on whomever he wills; but he hardens whomever he wills.
19 You will say to me, ' What else does he accuse me of? For who will resist His will?
20 And who are you, man, that you dispute with God? Will the product say to the one who made it, ' Why did you make me like this?'
21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, to make of the same mixture one vessel for honorable use, and another for low use?
22 What if God, wishing to show his anger and show his power, with great longsuffering spared the vessels of anger, ready for destruction,
23 That together he may manifest the riches of his glory over the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared for glory.,
24 even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
(ROM.9:11-24)
======================================
Predestined those about whom He knew in advance.
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29 For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be like the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 But those whom He predestined, he called, and those whom He called, He justified; and those whom he justified, he glorified.
31 What can I say to this? If God is for us, who is against us?
(ROM.8:29-31)
============================
But even His foreknowledge does not prevent the sinner from being saved.
--------------
16 And at the end of seven days the word of the LORD came to me.:
17 son of man! I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel, and thou shalt hear the word at My mouth, and you shall give them warning from Me.
18 When I say to the wrongdoer, ' You will die!And thou shalt not admonish him, nor speak, to warn the wicked man from his wicked way, that he may live; then that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, and I will seek his blood at thy hands.
19 But if you have admonished the wicked, and he has not turned from his iniquity and from his iniquity, then he will die in his iniquity, and you have saved your soul.
20 And if a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and does wrong, when I put a stumbling block before him and he dies, then if you have not admonished him, he will die for his sin, and his righteous deeds that he did will not be remembered to him; and I will seek his blood at your hands.
21 But if you admonish the righteous, so that the righteous will not sin, and he will not sin, then he will also live, because he was admonished, and you saved your soul.
(Ezek. 3: 16-21)

 

[Iconoclast]

Sorry, but you need to clarify that God said a lot of things that it is given to His people in eternal possession, but there was always a condition:
"IF YOU YOURSELVES DO NOT DEPART FROM MY COMMANDMENTS."
So there is only the promise that the Lord nothing is taken away and the other to choose not to be able to, but we lose it will be able to:
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12 take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, so that you do not depart from the living God.
13 But instruct one another every day, as long as it is possible to say, `Now,' so that none of you will be hardened by being deceived by sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we only keep the life we have begun firmly to the end,
15 As long as it is said, ' Now, when you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts, as in the time of murmuring.'
16 For some of those who heard it murmured, but not all those who came out of Egypt with Moses.
17 But who did he resent for forty years?
18 Against whom did he swear that they would not enter into his rest, if not against the disobedient?
19 So we see that they could not enter because of their unbelief.
(Heb. 3: 12-19)
--------
1 Therefore let us be wary, lest, while the promise remains to enter into his rest, any of you should be found late.
2 For it was announced to us, as it was to them; but the word that was heard did not profit them, because it was not dissolved by the faith of those who heard it.
3 But we who believe enter into the rest, because He said, 'I swore in my anger that they would not enter into my rest,' even though His works were done in the beginning of the world.
4 For there is no place where it is said of the seventh day: and God rested on the seventh day from all his works.
5 And again here, ' They shall not enter into my rest.'
6 it still remains that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief,
7 else defines a certain day, `today', saying through David after so long a time; as it is said: `today, if you hear His voice, harden not your hearts'.
(Heb.4:1-7)
=======================================
So here we see that "some did not enter" not because they were simply not pre-elected, but because they were not submissive and rejected the Truth themselves

So your response as well as sbg is to totally ignore the verse and suggest that man must do something rather than trust what God says...interesting!

 

[SavedByGrace]

So your response as well as sbg is to totally ignore the verse and suggest that man must do something rather than trust what God says...interesting!

Judging by your theology I know that I am right

 

[Strannik]

So your response as well as sbg is to totally ignore the verse and suggest that man must do something rather than trust what God says...interesting!

In case you haven't noticed, I've shown you the text in the context of the Bible, not just ripped it out like you did.

 

[Iconoclast]

Judging by your theology I know that I am right

You are not in position to judge anything without understanding scripture
When you are answered with scripture you deflect away to

AustinC, I just write in accordance with the Word of God Itself and do not tear the text out of context as you do, and you can not frighten me, but in your affairs I do not see any attraction to the Word of God.

God why you put just a vicious Tyrant Who contrary to his words sends people into eternal punishment?
============================================
1. Deut. 4: 2 do not add to that,
What I command you, and do not
abate from it; keep the
commandments of the Lord your God,
which I command you [today].

2. Deut.12: 32 All I have
I command you, do your best
do not add to this, and do
not subtract from that.
3. Prov.30:6 Do not add to His
words, lest He reprove
you, and you prove to be a liar.

The biblical God sends multitudes to the second death.
To refer to the righteous judgment of God as you have is profane and needs to be repented of.

 

[Strannik]

Sorry, I just got a message about deleting my message due to the fact that I allegedly quoted the already "deleted message"myself. What was it you could find out?

 

[SavedByGrace]

You are not in position to judge anything without understanding scripture
When you are answered with scripture you deflect away to

The biblical God sends multitudes to the second death.
To refer to the righteous judgment of God as you have is profane and needs to be repented of.

You believe in the hyper Calvinistic heresy