Ways to reveal false doctrines

[GraceSaves]

Tulpje,

You do realize that the forgiveness of sins and the satisfaction of sins is something different, right? When, as Catholics, our sins are forgiven, they are WIPED AWAY, completely gone, rather than just "covered up" as Luther believed it to be. Catholics do not follow the logic of "dung hills covered in snow," as Luther illustrated, but rather that the sins are completely wiped away.

This satisfaction is only made AFTER the sin has been ABSOLVED. And, as you stated, if the satisfaction is not made on earth, it is done in purgatory, where any uncleanness that remains in/on us is taken away by God. It in no way hinders our salvation, for whether we make satisfaction here or it is done for us in purgatory, we will be in heaven regardless.

 

[Juan Diego]

Tulpje,
I didn't understand your post to be more than informatory. Were you supporting my post or refuting it? It's not clear to me. Will you explain?

God bless you,
Juan Diego

 

[GraceSaves]

Tulpje,

I was attempting to explain what is meant by "satisfaction," which isn't covered in either of the statements you posted.

 

[tulpje]

No we don't believe that our sins are covered up. That is just rediculous. We have confession and absolution just like you do. Expet rarely is it done in private anylonger. We have an order at the beginning of our service. We confess our sins and the pastor abolves our sins. We believe in the keys. we belive that holy baptism and Holy communion are both meens of grace through which there is forgiveness of sins. What you are saying is just not so. We just don't believe that we have to buy or pentinance with good works.

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by tulpje:
No we don't believe that our sins are covered up. That is just rediculous. We have confession and absolution just like you do....

...We have an order at the beginning of our service. We confess our sins and the pastor abolves our sins.

No, you have corporate confession and absolution, in which, not some, but NONE of your individual sins are confessed. Your "sinfulness" is confessed. This is not the same thing.

Furthermore, this is from your website:

I have a question regarding the Lutheran teaching on justification.

I believe that the Lutheran church teaches that when a person is justified by God that God imputes to that person the righteousness of Christ (the person is reckoned righteous in God's sight--forensic [external] justification).

Does this "imputing" or "reckoning" of righteousness also include making the person internally righteous? What I mean is, does the person, when justified, because of the indwelling now of the Holy Spirit and because God has put a new heart in the person and written His laws in their hearts and made them fleshy and not stone, actually begin to be righteous (not only declared righteous), even though they still fight sin dwelling in their flesh?

I'm trying to decide between Lutheranism and Catholicism. Catholics say that Lutherans believe that God only "covers" a person with His righteousness (like snow covering a pile of dung) but does not actually make them righteous inwardly. Even though there are many things that I find questionable/nonapostolic in Catholicism (purgatory, indulgences, Immaculate Conception), it seems to me that what must decide my choice is the teaching on justification--because it has eternal consequences.

What is, exactly, the Lutheran teaching on justification?

The Bible teaches that we are justified by grace alone through faith alone, not by our works. Good works are not part of our justification, but they result from our justification (Ephesians 2:8-10, Romans 3:21-28).

"The person, when justified, because of the indwelling now of the Holy Spirit and because God has put a new heart in the person and written His laws in their hearts and made them fleshy and not stone, actually begin to be righteous (not only declared righteous), even though they still fight sin dwelling in their flesh." This is not part of justification (that is, it is not a cause of our forgiveness). This is a result of justification.

Justification is imputation, that is, it is a verdict pronounced on us because of Christ's death and resurrection as our substitute. Justification is that God declares our sins forgiven because Christ has paid for them. There is nothing left for us to pay. The Bible speaks of our sins being not charged to us, covered, thrown into the sea, removed as far as east from the west. All of this is due solely to the grace of God and the merit of Christ. Nothing in us contributes anything to this. Even our faith does not earn or merit anything by its own worth. It is simply the means through which we receive the gift.

The contrasts between the Lutheran and Catholic views then are the following.

Lutherans say we are justified by faith alone. The Catholic view is that we are not justified by faith alone, but by faith and works.

Lutherans say the grace by which we are justified is the gracious attitude of God by which he forgives our sins. Catholics say the grace by which we are justified includes gifts that God puts into us (infused grace) by which we are able to do the works that complete our justification.

Lutherans say that the person who stands under the grace of God in faith has complete justification. The imputation or declaration of righteousness to us is complete now. Catholics say justification is a gradual process which is completed by what we do.

Catholics say good works are part of our justification. They merit further grace. Lutherans says our good works are a result of justification. We do good works not to gain justification but to show our love and gratitude to God because we have been justified. The process by which we are made righteous begins now, but it is complete only when we enter heaven.

Lutherans teach that if we have saving faith in Christ, we can be confident that we will enter heaven when we die. Catholics teach that we may (probably will) have to complete payment for some of the temporal penalty of our sins in purgatory. The Catholic doctrines of purgatory, indulgences, and the merits of the saints are consequences of an unscriptural view of justification.

Lutherans stress Christian living as much or more than Roman Catholics, but they emphasize that these works are not done to earn forgiveness, but to give thanks for forgiveness. Catholicism always leaves a person unsure of forgiveness because it depends in part on us. The Bible leaves us confident of forgiveness because it depends entirely on Christ's merit, not even in part on our merit or the merit of Mary and the saints. "Since we have been justified through faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand" (Romans 5:1-2).

Okay, not only does the WELS lie about the Catholic Church here (they say: Catholicism always leaves a person unsure of forgiveness because it depends in part on us. Where they got that, I'd REALLY like to know), but it dodges the question from the reader as to what Luther taught. The whole concept of "dung heaps covered in snow" was Luther's idea, and it is what he taught. I'll find you the source, if you so wish.

Originally posted by tulpje:

Expet rarely is it done in private anylonger.

Which is strictly against the Lutheran Confessions, in which it was to be maintained at a level just under that of the Sacraments (meaning, of extreme importance).

Originally posted by tulpje:
We believe in the keys. we belive that holy baptism and Holy communion are both meens of grace through which there is forgiveness of sins. What you are saying is just not so.

So, in other words, you can take communion (an act that you do) and you get forgiveness of sins? I thought you condemned that notion?

Originally posted by tulpje:
We just don't believe that we have to buy or pentinance with good works.

Who does believe this? You just made it up? Or you have a complete and willfull lack of understanding of Catholic teachings on Penance?

 

[tulpje]

http://www.wels.net/sab/frm-bel.html
IV. JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH

We believe that God has justified all sinners, that is, he has declared them righteous for the sake of Christ. This is the central message of Scripture upon which the very existence of the church depends. It is a message relevant to people of all times and places, of all races and social levels, for "the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men" (Romans 5:18). All need forgiveness of sins before God, and Scripture proclaims that all have been justified, for "the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men" (Romans 5:18).

We believe that individuals receive this free gift of forgiveness not on the basis of their own works, but only through faith (Ephesians 2:8,9). Justifying faith is trust in Christ and his redemptive work. This faith justifies not because of any power it has in itself, but only because of the salvation prepared by God in Christ, which it embraces (Romans 3:28; 4:5). On the other hand, although Jesus died for all, Scripture says that "whoever does not believe will be condemned" (Mark 16:16). Unbelievers forfeit the forgiveness won for them by Christ (John 8:24).

We believe that people cannot produce this justifying faith, or trust, in their own hearts, because "the man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him" (1 Corinthians 2:14). In fact, "the sinful mind is hostile to God" (Romans 8:7). It is the Holy Spirit who gives people faith to recognize that "Jesus is Lord" (1 Corinthians 12:3). The Holy Spirit works this faith by means of the gospel (Romans 10:17). We believe, therefore, that a person's conversion is entirely the work of God's grace. Rejection of the gospel is, however, entirely the unbeliever's own fault (Matthew 23:37).

We believe that sinners are saved by grace alone. Grace is the undeserved love of God for sinners. This love led God to give sinners everything they need for their salvation. It is all a gift of God. People do nothing to earn any of it (Ephesians 2:8,9).

We believe that already before the world was created, God chose those individuals whom he would in time convert through the gospel of Christ and preserve in faith to eternal life (Ephesians 1:4-6; Romans 8:29,30). This election to faith and salvation in no way was caused by anything in people but shows how completely salvation is by grace alone (Romans 11:5,6).

We believe that at the moment of death, the souls of those who believe in Christ go immediately to be with the Lord in the joy of heaven because of the atoning work of Christ (Luke 23:43). The souls of those who do not believe in Christ go to an eternity of misery in hell (Luke 16:22-24).

We reject every teaching that people in any way contribute to their salvation. We reject the belief that people with their own power can cooperate in their conversion or make a decision for Christ (John 15:16). We reject the belief that those who are converted were less resistant to God's grace than those who remain unconverted. We reject all efforts to present faith as a condition people must fulfill to complete their justification. We reject all attempts of sinners to justify themselves before God.

We reject any suggestion that the doctrine of justification by faith is no longer meaningful today.

We reject the teaching that believers can never fall from faith ("once saved, always saved"), because the Bible says it is possible for believers to fall from faith (1 Corinthians 10:12).

We reject the false and blasphemous conclusion that those who are lost were predestined, or elected, by God to damnation, for God wants all people to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9).

We reject universalism, the belief that all people are saved, even those without faith in Christ (John 3:36). We reject pluralism, the belief that there are other ways to salvation besides faith in Christ (John 14:6; Acts 4:12). We reject any teaching that says it does not matter what one believes so long as one has faith in God.
This is what Scripture teaches about justification by grace through faith. This we believe, teach and confess.

[ March 16, 2002, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: tulpje ]

 

[tulpje]

VI. THE MEANS OF GRACE

We believe that God bestows all spiritual blessings upon sinners by special means established by him. These are the means of grace, the gospel in Word and sacraments. We define a sacrament as a sacred act established by Christ in which the Word connected with an earthly element gives the forgiveness of sins.

We believe that through the gospel, the good news of Christ's atoning sacrifice for sinners, the Holy Spirit works faith in people, whose hearts are by nature hostile to God (1 Peter 1:23). Scripture teaches that "faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ" (Romans 10:17). This Spirit-worked faith brings about a renewal in sinners and makes them heirs of eternal life in heaven.

We believe that also through the Sacrament of Baptism the Holy Spirit applies the gospel to sinners, giving them new life (Titus 3:5) and cleansing them from all sin (Acts 2:38). The Lord points to the blessing of Baptism when he promises, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mark 16:16). We believe that the blessing of Baptism is meant for all people (Matthew 28:19), including infants. Infants are born sinful (John 3:6) and therefore need to be born again, that is, to be brought to faith, through Baptism (John 3:5).

We believe that all who join in the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper receive the true body and blood of Christ in, with, and under the bread and wine (1 Corinthians 10:16). This is true because, when the Lord instituted this sacrament, he said, "This is my body. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins" (Matthew 26:26,28). We believe that Christ's words of institution cause the real presence--not any human action. As believers receive his body and blood, they also receive the forgiveness of sins (Matthew 26:28) and the comfort and assurance that they are truly his own. Unbelievers also receive Christ's body and blood, but to their judgment (1 Corinthians 11:29).

We believe that the Lord gave his Word and the sacraments of Baptism and the Lord's Supper for a purpose. He commanded his followers, "Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you" (Matthew 28:19,20). Through God's Word and sacraments he preserves and extends the holy Christian church throughout the world. Believers should therefore be diligent and faithful in the use of these divinely established means of grace for themselves and in their mission outreach to others. These are the only means through which immortal souls are brought to faith and to life in heaven.

We reject any views that look for the revelation of the grace of God and salvation apart from the gospel as found in the Scriptures. We reject any views that look for the Holy Spirit to work faith apart from the means of grace. We likewise reject the view that the law is a means of grace.

We reject the view that babies should not be baptized and that they cannot believe in Christ (Luke 18:15-17). We reject the view that baptism must be by immersion.

We reject all teachings that the Sacrament of the Altar offers nothing more than signs and symbols of Jesus' sacrifice, thereby denying that Christ's true body and blood are received in the Lord's Supper. We reject the view that those who eat the body of Christ in the sacrament merely receive Christ spiritually by faith. We reject the claim that unbelievers and hypocrites do not receive the true body and blood of Jesus in the Sacrament.

We reject the doctrine of transubstantiation, which teaches that the substance of the bread and wine are changed entirely into the body and blood of Christ. Scripture teaches that all communicants receive both the bread and wine and the body and blood of Christ (1 Corinthians 10:16).

We reject any attempt to set the precise moment within the celebration of the Lord's Supper when the body and blood of Christ become present. We therefore reject the view that one must believe that Christ's body and blood are present as soon as the words of consecration have been spoken and the view that one must believe that Christ's body and blood become present only at the moment of eating and drinking.
This is what Scripture teaches about the means of grace. This we believe, teach and confess.

 

[tulpje]

V. GOOD WORKS AND PRAYER

We believe that faith in Jesus Christ always leads a believer to produce works that are pleasing to God. "Faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead" (James 2:17). As a branch in Christ the vine, a Christian produces good fruit (John 15:5).

We believe that works pleasing to God are works of love, for "love is the fulfillment of the law" (Romans 13:10). Faith, however, does not set up its own standards to determine what is loving (Matthew 15:9). True faith delights to do only what agrees with God's holy will. That will of God is revealed in the Bible, particularly in the Ten Commandments as their content is repeated in the New Testament. In wrestling with current moral problems, the Christian will therefore seek answers from God's law.

We believe, for example, that the Fifth Command-ment teaches that all human life is a gift from God. This commandment speaks against abortion, suicide, and euthanasia ("mercy killing").

We believe that the Sixth Commandment regulates marriage and the family. God instituted marriage as a lifelong union of one man and one woman (Matthew 19:4-6). It is the only proper context for sexual intimacy and the procreation of children. A marriage can be ended without sin only when God ends the marriage through the death of one of the spouses. Nevertheless, a Christian may obtain a divorce if his or her spouse has broken the marriage through adultery (Matthew 19:9) or malicious desertion (1 Corinthians 7:15). The Sixth Commandment forbids all sexual intimacy apart from marriage, including homosexuality (1 Corinthians 6:9,10).

We believe that individuals are free to make their own decisions concerning matters that are neither forbidden nor commanded by God's Word (adiaphora). People must be careful, however, that their use of this freedom does not cause others to sin.

We believe that good works, which are fruits of faith, must be distinguished from works of civic righteousness performed by unbelievers. Although unbelievers may do much that appears to be good and upright, these works are not good in God's sight, for "without faith it is impossible to please God" (Hebrews 11:6). While we recognize the value of such works for human society, we know that unbelievers cannot do their duty to God through works of civic righteousness.

We believe that in this world even the best works of Christians are tainted with sin. A sinful nature still afflicts every Christian. Therefore Christians often fail to do the good they want to do but keep on doing the evil they do not want to do (Romans 7:18-21). They must confess that all their righteous acts are like filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6). Because of Christ's redemption, however, these imperfect efforts of Christians are considered holy and acceptable by their heavenly Father.

We believe that the Holy Spirit enables every believer to produce good works as fruits of faith (Galatians 5:22-25). The Holy Spirit gives every believer a new nature, or "new man," that cooperates with the Holy Spirit in doing good works. The Holy Spirit uses the gospel to motivate believers to do good works.

The Holy Spirit also equips the church with all the spiritual gifts it needs for its well-being (1 Corinthians 12:4-11). During the beginning of the New Testament era, special charismatic gifts were given to the church, such as signs, miracles, and speaking in tongues. These gifts were connected with the ministry of the apostles (2 Corinthians 12:12). There is no evidence in Scripture that we today should expect the continuation of such charismatic gifts.

We believe that a life of prayer is a fruit of faith. Confidently, through faith in their Savior, Christians address their heavenly Father with petitions and praise. They present their needs and the needs of others, and they give thanks (1 Timothy 2:1). Such prayers are a delight to God, and he grants their requests according to his wisdom (Matthew 7:7,8; 1 John 5:14).

We reject every thought that the good works of Christians in any way earn or contribute toward establishing a right relationship with God and gaining salvation in heaven.

We reject every attempt to abolish the unchanging moral law of God as revealed in the Bible as the absolute standard of what is right and wrong.

We reject the view that people may decide for themselves what is right and wrong apart from God's Word. We reject any misuse of the term love to condone behavior contrary to God's Word. We recognize these arguments as schemes of Satan to obscure the knowledge of God's holy will and to undermine the consciousness of sin.

We reject any view that considers the act of praying a means of grace. Although God certainly gives good gifts to believers in answer to their prayers, he conveys his forgiving grace and strengthens faith only through the Word and sacraments. Furthermore, we reject any view that looks upon prayer as beneficial only because it helps the one who prays feel better.

We reject the view that all prayers are acceptable to God, and we hold that the prayers of all who do not have faith in Christ are vain babbling addressed to false gods (Matthew 6:7). This is what Scripture teaches about good works and prayer. This we believe, teach, and confess.

 

[tulpje]

Originally posted by GraceSaves:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tulpje:
We just don't believe that we have to buy or pentinance with good works.

Who does believe this? You just made it up? Or you have a complete and willfull lack of understanding of Catholic teachings on Penance?[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]"IT IS OBVIOUS THAT ONE MUST PERFORM THE GOOD WORKS-PRAYERS, ALMS DEEDS, VISISTS TO A CHURCH, ETC.-WHICH ARE PRESCRIBED FOR GRANTING AN UNDULGENCE"

You are purchacing your penance just not with money. You are doing so with good works.

I have to admit that you have a very condencending tone. Was this statement, "You just made it up? Or you have a complete and willfull lack of understanding of Catholic teachings on Penance?" necessary? I think that I have a very good grasp on the idea. The idea is that you are not forgiven through the blood of Christ but through your own deeds.

 

[tulpje]

we haven't abolished private confession. We can have a private coonfession. We just normally do it as as a part of the service during the brief order of confession and absolution. As a congregation we confess our sins together. Then through the use of the keys, the pastor absolves our sins.

http://www.wels.net/sab/listen/luth-sm-cat.html#keys
CONFESSION
First: What is Confession?

Confession has two parts. The one is that we confess our sins; the other, that we receive absolution or forgiveness from the pastor* as from God himself, not doubting but firmly believing that our sins are thus forgiven before God in heaven. Second: What sins should we confess?

Before God we should plead guilty of all sins, even those we are not aware of, as we do in the Lord's Prayer. But before the pastor we should confess only those sins which we know and feel in our hearts.

Third: How can we recognize these sins?

Consider your place in life according to the Ten Commandments. Are you a father, mother, son, daughter, employer or employee? Have you been disobedient, unfaithful, or lazy? Have you hurt anyone by word or deed? Have you been dishonest, careless, wasteful, or done other wrong?

Fourth: How will the pastor assure a penitent sinner of forgiveness?

He will say, "By the authority of Christ, I forgive you your sins in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen."

*The German term is best translated as 'confessor," that is, the person who hears the confession.

[ March 16, 2002, 08:38 PM: Message edited by: tulpje ]

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by tulpje:
I have to admit that you have a very condencending tone. Was this statement, "You just made it up? Or you have a complete and willfull lack of understanding of Catholic teachings on Penance?" necessary? I think that I have a very good grasp on the idea. The idea is that you are not forgiven through the blood of Christ but through your own deeds.

My tone reflected the statement that Catholics pay for the forgiveness of sins. How many times do Catholics have to tell you that indulgences are POST-FORGIVENESS before you realize it? Indulgences are for the satisfaction of sins, NOT the forgiveness. So, when you openly condemn indulgences but are showing a lack of knowledge on what they are, even when said knowledge is provided for you, yes, you are making it up, because it is ungrounded. Indulgences are not forgiveness of sins.

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by tulpje:
we haven't abolished private confession. We can have a private coonfession. We just normally do it as as a part of the service during the brief order of confession and absolution. As a congregation we confess our sins together. Then through the use of the keys, the pastor absolves our sins.

Where did I say you abolished it? You said they were the same thing, and that "private confession is hardly used any more."

Therefore, there is a big difference between Lutherans and Catholics here. That's all I said. I didn't question anything beyond that.

 

[tulpje]

"IT IS OBVIOUS THAT ONE MUST PERFORM THE GOOD WORKS-PRAYERS, ALMS DEEDS, VISISTS TO A CHURCH, ETC.-WHICH ARE PRESCRIBED FOR GRANTING AN UNDULGENCE"

Ok... so you get the inulgence AFTER you do these things? Is that like going to the store handing the cashire the money and then recieving the items for which I payed for? You don't receive the merchendise before you pay for it. So, you PERFORM THE GOOD WORKS-PRAYERS, ALMS DEEDS, VISISTS TO A CHURCH, ETC." then forgiveness is granted. Ohhhh I see now. Thanks

Forgiveness is a free gift of God. I don't need to "PERFORM THE GOOD WORKS-PRAYERS, ALMS DEEDS, VISISTS TO A CHURCH, ETC." before my sins are forgiven. That is saying that what Christ did on the cross was not good enough. He died for your sins and mine. It is a completed work. Now we only have to ask for forgiveness and in his divine mercy, he grants it. Amen

 

[LaRae]

Perhaps this site can help explain the concept of Penance and Indulgences:

http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ300.HTM

LaRae

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by tulpje:
"IT IS OBVIOUS THAT ONE MUST PERFORM THE GOOD WORKS-PRAYERS, ALMS DEEDS, VISISTS TO A CHURCH, ETC.-WHICH ARE PRESCRIBED FOR GRANTING AN UNDULGENCE"

If you're going to continue using this quote, please use correct grammar. It's "I"ndulgence, not "U"ndulgence.

Originally posted by tulpje:
Ok... so you get the inulgence AFTER you do these things? Is that like going to the store handing the cashire the money and then recieving the items for which I payed for? You don't receive the merchendise before you pay for it. So, you PERFORM THE GOOD WORKS-PRAYERS, ALMS DEEDS, VISISTS TO A CHURCH, ETC." then forgiveness is granted. Ohhhh I see now. Thanks

I don't know what you see, but it exactly opposite of what I just told you. An indulgence is for the "satisfaction" of a sin that has already been "completely forgiven." Therefore, if the sin is already forgiven, how exactly does an indulgence forgive you of it? It's logical sense, unless you're just looking over my posts and not reading them.

Originally posted by tulpje:
Forgiveness is a free gift of God. I don't need to "PERFORM THE GOOD WORKS-PRAYERS, ALMS DEEDS, VISISTS TO A CHURCH, ETC." before my sins are forgiven. That is saying that what Christ did on the cross was not good enough. He died for your sins and mine. It is a completed work. Now we only have to ask for forgiveness and in his divine mercy, he grants it. Amen

Double amen. No Catholic teaching has ever required you to do anything for the forgiveness of sins. With those forgivenesses, we will share eternity with Christ, indulgences or no indulgences. Indulgences are wholly unncessary for salvation, and you can go through life without ever receiving one.

Now, will you please, please, please read my posts and stop the incesant repeating that indulgences are for the forgiveness of sins? This is your own invention, not the teaching of any church body in the world, and it makes no logical sense. You are doing damage by saying it.

 

[tulpje]

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm
In the Sacrament of Baptism not only is the guilt of sin remitted, but also all the penalties attached to sin. In the Sacrament of Penance the guilt of sin is removed, and with it the eternal punishment due to mortal sin; but there still remains the temporal punishment required by Divine justice, and this requirement must be fulfilled either in the present life or in the world to come, i.e., in Purgatory. An indulgence offers the penitent sinner the means of discharging this debt during his life on earth.

OK! So, you were released of the GUILT of your sin through confession and absolution, but were not released of the PUNISHMENT for that sin, so in order to be released of said PUNISHMENT, you need to do good works and then after you PERFORM THE GOOD WORKS-PRAYERS, ALMS DEEDS, VISISTS TO A CHURCH, ETC.-WHICH ARE PRESCRIBED FOR GRANTING AN INDULGENCE, your eternal PUNISHMENT for said SIN is DISCHARGED? So, that still equates to you are not going to go to heaven unless you buy and indulgence through GOOD WORKS-PRAYERS, ALMS DEEDS, VISISTS TO A CHURCH, ETC.-WHICH ARE PRESCRIBED FOR GRANTING AN INDULGENCE? Is that correct?

 

[Lorelei]

Sorry I have been gone so long, I missed so much of the conversation!

Originally posted by Juan Diego:
1. Now it doesn't matter who said it because many of you all say the same thing.

Ah, but I have said it, so I will respond.

Originally posted by Juan Diego:
2. Saying that you "hold the Word of God as Truth and looks to only that as the final authority" has little meaning. Saying over and over and over adds no more meaning to it. It may make you feel as though you are stating a truth, but does not do any more than that.

Stating it does not, you are right. But if you have ever read any of my posts in any of the other threads you will find that I do indeed hold the Bible as the final authority.

Originally posted by Juan Diego:
3. Your exaggeration that I "disrespect someone who holds the Word of God as Truth and looks to only that as the final authority" holds no water either. I have great respect for someone who actually believes the Word of God. What I have disrespect for is the disrespect of shouting "false doctrine" over and over and over with no proof that such is the case.

That all sounds lovely, yet you ignore the fact that I use the words "false doctrine" after I have compared Catholic doctrine to what the Word of God says. You may disrespect me, that is your choice, but that doesn't change the facts.

Originally posted by Juan Diego:
4. If something is a "false doctrine" you should be able to prove it without having to shout. As the radio ad asks, "Are you raising your voice when you should be reinforcing your argument?"

Who says I shout it? Who says I am raising my voice? It is your own preconceived ideas as to the attitudes of someone who disagrees with you. You assume we are shouting and have some pious attitude behind our words. You have no idea how softly I speak and with what great compassion I share what I believe. Please, try not to add to my words an attitude that comes from you and not me. We believe Catholics have been led astray, we believe they are following things that the Bible teaches are wrong. This does NOT make me happy and self righteous, it saddens me deeply.

Originally posted by Juan Diego:
5. I have found that the people who keep saying such things as, "I am sorry if you disrespect someone who holds the Word of God as Truth and looks to only that as the final authority" usually can't back up their argument therefore they resort to rudeness and name calling.

Before you continue to make assumptions about me and imply the very rudeness you accuse of me, I would ask that you please go read some of my posts and see how much I quote scripture to back up my arguments. The reason I get so frustrated debating with Catholics, is that the scripture means nothing to them, because they rely on the tradition of the Church rather then scripture.

Originally posted by Juan Diego:
Now you have made accusations that the Catholic Church doesn't believe the Bible. Please state those things and prove your point.

I have in other threads. The purpose of this thread was to discuss how to reveal false doctrines. You have said much regarding your opinion yet you show no scriptures that tell me that I should not even use the words "false doctrine". Where is the scriptural basis for that? We are to be gentle and kind, but as I mentioned, even Christ cried out to those who were doing such things. I also stated this verse:

James 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

You only disagree that you are in error, not that the Bible says so.

Originally posted by Juan Diego:
You don't need to shout or get insulting. You can talk in a normal voice and I will be glad to listen. If you can't do that, I am not going to discuss the issues with you.

I am and have been talking in a normal voice...what makes you think I am yelling?

Originally posted by Juan Diego:

I will also say that from my point of view I don't grasp that you actually believe the Bible.

Wonderful! We finally get to the bottom of it. You don't grasp what we believe. That is fine and understandable, but that doesn't mean that I have to stop professing to believe it does it? What I believe makes you angry, and you find the belief itself offensive. I can understand that.

2 Timothy 4:2Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction. 3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

We are told to keep preaching the Word in season and out. Whether you like to hear it or not. But some people would rather listen to lies. It's that simple.

I know you think I am not being gentle or patient, but that is because you can't hear how I am saying what I say. Just because we aren't sugar coating the truth does not make us unkind.

John 20:21. "...As the father has sent me, I also send you." when he had said this, he breathed upon them, and said to them, "receive the holy spirit; whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; whose sins you shall retain, they are retained."

And this applies only to the priesthood how?

Luke 10:16. "He who hears you, hears me; and he who rejects you, rejects me; and he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me."

Amen. Is there a specific point your doctrine is supposed to make with this that I disagree, or are you saying that this too refers only to your priesthood? (Unless you are referring to the priesthood of all believers)

1 Peter 2:9But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Amen, though I never see Peter referred to as a Pope and he never allowed anyone to show him such reverance.

Acts 10:25As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. 26But Peter made him get up. "Stand up," he said, "I am only a man myself."

Matthew 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Again, it is you that apply interpretation by quoting all these verses that you assume to apply only to your church.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Amen! All power belongs to Jesus NOT to the church.

John 3:5 "...unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit HE CANNOT ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD."

Yes, I was born of water when I was born. I was baptized when I was born of the Spirit.

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Last I recall, Jesus rose from the dead and is now in heaven with the Father. I don't see how you can have any of his body around left to eat. Of course we know that he broke bread and said to take and eat, for it was his body. Note: He didn't tear flesh of his arm and say that.

Originally posted by Juan Diego:
Now, if you don't believe these few without applying an interpretation to them, I don't think you should accuse anyone else of not following the Word of God.

It is your church that needs to apply the interpretation to them. I believe what they say you believe what the church says they mean.

Do you believe this one?

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

~Lorelei

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by chz:
"I believe that the Catholic doctrine of ______ is false because ... Can anyone help me understand why Catholics believe this?"

I already understand why Catholics believe it. Why they believe it is not the issue and I don't need you to explain it to me.

I understand that in this thread I haven't given specific reasons why I believe your doctrines are false, but that is because that is not the topic of this thread. The purpose of this thread was not to discuss the specific differences (as that is done in many other threads), but rather, to ask you why we have to sugarcoat our beliefs just because you have decided to come to a Baptist Board.

Simply stating you are following false doctrine would be tacky, but that is not what we are doing. We give the scriptural references, we explain why we believe it, we show you how they are false, and what the right way is.

You don't agree, that is fine, but stop telling us we have to word our beliefs this way or that way. That is exactly what I am talking about. You come to see us on our board and then tell us how we are supposed to talk in front of you. This is how you should title your thread. Sorry, if you don't like what we believe, but we won't stop believing it just because you are here. We won't stop speaking it or preaching it. We shouldn't have to or be expected to. That is my point.

Originally posted by kwob02:
I believe that Jesus grieves daily over the arrogance and bitterness that is exchanged between those who claim his name as their own.

You say this because you don't believe that the Catholics preach another gospel. You think they believe in the Christ that the Bible teaches, but sadly they do not.

The Bible clearly says:

Galations 1: But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

2 John: 9Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. 11Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.

Doesn't sound very loving, but it is the Word of God.

Originally posted by Deacon's Son:

That view is presumptuous and asanine

Thank you for revealing how real love should be worded. My view comes from statements that were made by the Catholics who insisted to be able to come to this board.

When you "defend" yourself, you are trying to show us that "you" are right, and therefore we are "wrong". It all comes out the same.

Either way, I have no problem with you coming here to debate with us, my problem comes when people start crying when they hear the very beliefs that they have come to "defend". You knew we believed it, don't get upset when we say so.

~Lorelei

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by tulpje:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm
In the Sacrament of Baptism not only is the guilt of sin remitted, but also all the penalties attached to sin. In the Sacrament of Penance the guilt of sin is removed, and with it the eternal punishment due to mortal sin; but there still remains the temporal punishment required by Divine justice, and this requirement must be fulfilled either in the present life or in the world to come, i.e., in Purgatory. An indulgence offers the penitent sinner the means of discharging this debt during his life on earth.

OK! So, you were released of the GUILT of your sin through confession and absolution, but were not released of the PUNISHMENT for that sin, so in order to be released of said PUNISHMENT, you need to do good works and then after you PERFORM THE GOOD WORKS-PRAYERS, ALMS DEEDS, VISISTS TO A CHURCH, ETC.-WHICH ARE PRESCRIBED FOR GRANTING AN INDULGENCE, your eternal PUNISHMENT for said SIN is DISCHARGED? So, that still equates to you are not going to go to heaven unless you buy and indulgence through GOOD WORKS-PRAYERS, ALMS DEEDS, VISISTS TO A CHURCH, ETC.-WHICH ARE PRESCRIBED FOR GRANTING AN INDULGENCE? Is that correct?

No. I would honestly like to know, how in good conscience, you replaced the words "temporal punishment" with "eternal punishment." Please tell me.

 

[tulpje]

Does it matter? with indugences you are trying to escape God wrath with works.. no matter what word you use for the type of wrath, it is still wrath.