Ways to reveal false doctrines

[chz]

Originally posted by Lorelei:

You aren't "playing ball on my court", you are here to show me that my court isn't accurate. See the difference? Then when I question your court, I am the offensive one.

I think you are passing an unfair judgement on me here. By "your court", I mean that the Baptists write the rules and choose the moderators. As far as I know, I haven't questioned anyone on Baptist doctrine.

I do understand why you find it offensive and I am trying to explain that we aren't motivated to offend. Ever hear the saying "the truth hurts"? Sometimes it does, but don't blame the bearer of the bad news, blame the cause of it.

I'm not sure you quite understand. The reason I find it offensive is for the same reason you would find it offensive if I said the same thing about you. And to be clear, your words don't hurt me. They just lead me to respect what you have to say less.

Don't you think that we would find it offensive that you are all here to "Prove us wrong"? You come here, to our home, to tell us just how wrong we are and you see nothing wrong with that? We aren't running the Catholic forums and doing the same. I DO have respect for your faith, so I don't go in your church (or message board) and shove my ideas down your throat then call YOU unfair and unloving for standing up for yourself in your own domain.

I'm not very aware of the past history here so bear with me. I could see your point if I were to invade one of your "Baptist Only" forums and started telling everyone they were living a lie. Although, you are making the case that if I were a truly loving Christian then I would do just that.

This is what truly perplexes me though. This forum is titled as such:

"Other Religions / Non-Baptist Doctrines
Debate other religions' doctrines/beliefs here."

Now, to me, this looks like an open invitation to discuss ideas on Non-Baptist Doctrines. If Catholics are truly not welcome here, please have an administrator or moderator ask me to leave.

At least be honest in your motives. Otherwise, why would a Catholic come to a Baptist board?

Sure, I'll be honest. I come to learn. I live in the South where there are very few Catholics and a lot of various types of Baptists. My faith is challenged in person from time to time and it is sometime difficult to provide answers on the spot. I seek understanding of where the common objections to the Catholic Church come from and how to answer such objections. I could read books but books don't give a feel for how typical discussion flows. And I just like to discuss doctrine with people that don't agree with me sometimes. Is it wrong for me to seek these things in a forum labeled for debate?

 

[HankD]

>>You are forgetting something. as a Christian if you think ANYONE (regardless of denom) is in error your only obligation is to pray for them....no where are you called to attack them ....nor are you to cause a stumbling block for anyone else...>>.

"only obligation is to pray for them"

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

HankD

 

[Daughter]

Originally posted by LaRae:
Lorlei,

You are forgetting something....as a Christian if you think ANYONE (regardless of denom) is in error your only obligation is to pray for them....no where are you called to attack them ....nor are you to cause a stumbling block for anyone else....

LaRae

If I may put in my £0.02...

Scripture does instruct us to warn others if they are in error AS WELL AS praying for them. I would hate to think of my unsaved friends or other unsaved people I meet asking "Why didn't she tell me?" on the Day of Judgment.

As long as that warning is done in love, then I see nothing wrong with it:

"Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted." (Galatians 6:1)

1 Peter 3:15 "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:"

Peace
Daughter

 

[javalady]

My sisters & brothers have done a great job pointing out some of the Scriptures that support the command of God to bring to light the error people are bound by.
What compassion & love is it that allows people to go on in their bondage, never giving to them the words of life?
If a person is blind & I have the key to give them sight, am I compassionate & loving because I don't want to offend them by telling them about the key I have that would heal their blindness?
As the old adage goes, if someone is asleep in a burning house, do you politely knock on the door & wait for an invitation to come in to save them? Or do you break the door down & rescue the person, because they may perish in their sleep?! Of course, if you have any true concern, you do the latter.
Jude mentions that "on some have compassion, making a difference: and others save with fear , pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh." (Jude 22,23)
So yes, it is appropriate for a believer to warn someone in a cult/false religion of the danger of their beliefs, of the eternal hell that awaits them unless they repent & rely on Jesus Christ alone for salvation. It is not hateful of the person--only hateful of "the garment spotted by the flesh."
So all this smoke being sent up by the RCC bunch shows that they are in a house full of flames & not only unaware of it--they don't want to be rescued!
Persevere, Brothers & Sisters! Keep praying, yes! But keep contending for the faith & keep grabbing those resistant souls & pulling them out of the fire!!

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by Juan Diego:
But you chose a public place to do such and therefore invite others to read and the result is they want a chance to respond. Have you found any Catholic forums that refused to allow non Catholics to participate?

I haven't even looked. I am not "witch hunting" and seeking out all Catholics to tell them how I believe. I will share what I believe with those I come in contact with, but I am not seeking them out in a place where they should be allowed to fellowship with each other.

You call it a public place, but are you paying for the domain hosting? Are the one paying for this access? Just because you can "log on" does not mean you own it and are therefore granted public access.

Originally posted by Juan Diego:


Thank you that *is* fair.

Why is it "fair"? Would you expect to be able to enter my church and do the same thing? I don't think it would be unfair for a Catholic forum to ask me not to post, you know why? I am not Catholic and all Catholics have the right to fellowship without interferance. I don't know, maybe I am just too adamant on having the right of freedom of speech and religion, even on the internet. Having the right to assemble without having to allow others of different faiths. I thought the persecution to make you have to listen to a religion that you dont' agree with inside of your own private domain ended with the constitution.

Originally posted by Juan Diego:
Isn't that what you're saying is the duty of a Christian?

It is the duty to share the beliefs, it isn't my duty to enter your sanctuary and private domain to do so.

Originally posted by Juan Diego:
Which was very unfair. You're in a public place.

So you help pay for this domain? Did we hide the fact we were a baptist site? It is misleading in any way of what you will find when you come to this site?

How come you only acknowledge the unfairness you feel has been done to you. Why not realize that you are not treating us with this so called "respect" that you are demanding we give?

Originally posted by Juan Diego:
I certainly hope so.

Indeed, for I haven't met a Catholic in real life yet that demands to enter my home or my church and tell me how wrong and unfair I am.

Originally posted by Juan Diego:
Keep doing that and you won't have many friends. How about convincing them of your conviction by how you live your life and treat others. Don't you think that would be more effective?

I didn't word it very well. I treat my Catholic friends, just that way, as friends. We know what the other one thinks, but that is not all we talk about or focus on and neither of us disrespects the other's beliefs inside thier own home.

See, you make judgements on how I live my life and treat my friends and you don't know anything about me. Your judgements are not even accurate by reading my posts. You are basing them on an opinion by reading a few words I typed and deciding for yourself what attitude and spirit are behind them. Go in the archives and you will see that I have cautioned people against that very thing. The reason why I say you can't judge us by this forum alone is that you can't see my attitude and it is soo easy to misread intentions especially if somethings are not worded well. It is hard for a lot of people to put things into written words, myself included. Yet you are ready to stand on the judgement throne against me, but I guess that is ok, for Catholics CAN be rude and judgemental. As long you as don't use the word false you can be as mean as you like.

Originally posted by Juan Diego:

OK. I can buy that, but sometimes I see some who cannot articulate their beliefs become very unchristian. Just the term "false beliefs" toward another is somewhat inciteful and is demonstrative of an ignorant person. I look at such a person and immediately form the opinion that he is very prejudiced\bigoted unable to back up his belief with true knowledge. If you want me to see that my belief is false you (1.) best not call it false (2.) and you should explain it to me using references and explanations that will convince me that it is false without my having to hear that it is. Once you are able to do that, I will not have a problem with calling it false myself.

In threads where specific issues are dealt with you will find me using scripture to back up my beliefs. You will find that I am very adamant that scripture be the final authority on settling a dispute. We disagree because we disagree where that authority is. You say the Church, I say God's Word. I said a long time ago that we will NEVER convince either one and we will NEVER get anywhere because we can't agree on this. That is why I actually seldom join in these conversations. I just speak up from time to time and then I usually bow out. That is my style. I speak my peace and let it be said and let it rest. At least I know I have spoken the truth.

Originally posted by Juan Diego:
It's not the pride issue so much with hearing "false," but I have a tendency to turn off someone whose couth allows them to say it.

See, you are here in a Baptist Forum where we believe it is false. You should realize you ARE going to hear it, whether you agree or not. False is false, I won't change my opinion of it just because the word hurts your pride or your feelings. You can continue to think you are better then me becaues you don't use the word. The Bible used it, and so will I.

Originally posted by Juan Diego:
First you are assuming that the leaders of my Church are liars and hypocrites and that I am standing up for such. I couldn't disagree with you more.

I am not assuming anything. I am taking what they believe and comparing it to what the Bible teaches. I don't care if you agree or not.

See, we disagree and the only way you will accept that is if I shut up about what I believe or agree with you. I can't do either, I am sorry. That is my point. I am at a Baptist Board and shouldn't have to do either.

Originally posted by Juan Diego:
I don't assume that the leaders of your church are liars or hypocrites because that is called rash judgment. It is unchristian to make such judgment of others.

Unchristian to do as Christ said and keep away from those who are teaching lies. To listen to the Bible and be able to identify false doctrines, to obey the Word and show people the errors of thier ways?

You assume my judgement is rash because you don't agree. That doesn't make it rash.

Originally posted by Juan Diego:
Let me give you an example. I am convinced that Joseph Smith was a liar and a fraud that perpetrated a hoax on his followers. But for me to treat any Mormon that believes and defends it as though he was a liar and hypocrite is uncalled for, unchristian, and definitly unconvincing to him.

So you are saying the Bible says to be silent about it, or that is just how you handle it? Your definition of "unchristian" is biased and has no biblical basis at all.

Originally posted by Juan Diego:

Do you see what I am saying Lorelei?

Yes and I disagree. Do you see what I am saying, or have you even tried?

Originally posted by Juan Diego:
You are assuming they are false. Maybe you are the one playing the part of St. Paul????

So you assume Mormonism is a false doctrine, or you know it? You think I assume and I know what the Bible tells me.

Originally posted by Juan Diego:
Articulate your beliefs intelligently, logically, and without malice and then be willing to admit when they don't match up logically. OK? Is that fair?

I am doing that to the best of my ability. There is no malice involved, at least from me. But see, you again are telling me that I am wrong..IF I do that then I will have to admit they don't match up. Wrong, they do match up. If it is fair, then you do it, for you are the one that is posting maliciously in our home, and you are not thinking intelligently or logically. Oh was that rude? Sorry, just showing how nice that was of you to tell me that. How Christian of you.

I sure hope you all don't treat your hosts this way in real life, I am sure you wouldn't have very many friends then either. Do you always go to someone else's house and tell me how they have to act and what they are allowed to say and how they must do only things that are or are not acceptable to you?

~Lorelei

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by LaRae:
Lorlei,

You are forgetting something....as a Christian if you think ANYONE (regardless of denom) is in error your only obligation is to pray for them....no where are you called to attack them ....nor are you to cause a stumbling block for anyone else....

LaRae

I am not attacking them. You too are missing my point. They are here on a Baptist forum to defend themselves from our beliefs which are based on God's Word. Who is attacking who??

Defending God's Word and correcting someone and showing them the Truth is not an attack.

Speaking the Truth never caused anyone to stumble. Let's look at this:

You are walking down a path and there is a big rock in the way and I can tell that you don't see it and are about to trip on it, stumble and fall. Do I tell you that the rock is there so you can open your eyes and see it, or do I keep silent so that I won't embarass you or interupt the walk you are enjoying so much? Which one will keep you from stumbling?

We are instructed to do more then pray as others have so gracefully pointed out.

~Lorelei

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by chz:
I think you are passing an unfair judgement on me here. By "your court", I mean that the Baptists write the rules and choose the moderators. As far as I know, I haven't questioned anyone on Baptist doctrine.

If you are not here to question our doctrine then why are you here?

Originally posted by chz:

I'm not sure you quite understand. The reason I find it offensive is for the same reason you would find it offensive if I said the same thing about you.

You find it offensive because you disgree. You can say the same thing to me and I don't care, I know what he Bible says so I don't worry about what you say. What I find offensive is where the conversation takes place. If I said it in a Catholic forum then you have every right to be offended, but I said it here, where I have every right to speak what we believe. Our beliefs offend you, sorry. But they are ours and this is our place.

Originally posted by chz:

And to be clear, your words don't hurt me. They just lead me to respect what you have to say less.

I am sorry if you disrespect someone who holds the Word of God as Truth and looks to only that as the final authority. That doesn't hurt me either. At least I didn't come speak them in your house and then expect to be respected.

Originally posted by chz:
I'm not very aware of the past history here so bear with me. I could see your point if I were to invade one of your "Baptist Only" forums and started telling everyone they were living a lie. Although, you are making the case that if I were a truly loving Christian then I would do just that.

Baptist Only or not, this is the "Baptist" board, we never changed that. It is run and owned by Baptists, but that doesn't seem to demand the respect of Catholics, it, for some reason, means we are suddenly supposed to stop talking like Baptists in this forum....

We are to speak out against false doctrines and false religions, but we aren't supposed to be tactless in doing so. See the problem is you only see your side. We say it so we are the ones being rude but we didn't go into your home to do it, you came to ours. Then you demand that we respect you and not speak what we believe. That is just unfair.

Originally posted by chz:
forum is titled as such:

"Other Religions / Non-Baptist Doctrines
Debate other religions' doctrines/beliefs here."

Now, to me, this looks like an open invitation to discuss ideas on Non-Baptist Doctrines. If Catholics are truly not welcome here, please have an administrator or moderator ask me to leave.

Come and debate all you want, but stop whining when we debate back.

Originally posted by chz:
Sure, I'll be honest. I come to learn. I live in the South where there are very few Catholics and a lot of various types of Baptists. My faith is challenged in person from time to time and it is sometime difficult to provide answers on the spot. I seek understanding of where the common objections to the Catholic Church come from and how to answer such objections. I could read books but books don't give a feel for how typical discussion flows. And I just like to discuss doctrine with people that don't agree with me sometimes. Is it wrong for me to seek these things in a forum labeled for debate?

No it is not, but don't be surprised when we tell you what we think. If that causes you to disrespect us, oh well, but don't demand that we must earn your respect under your terms.

~Lorelei

[ March 14, 2002, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: Lorelei ]

 

[LaRae]

To all who think they have a right to show others the error of their ways.....

Who are you to decide if anyone is in error? Shouldn't you be more concerned with making sure you are doing what you should be (living by example etc) than pointing out what you think is wrong with how someone else chooses to worship?

I don't think the Catholics who are here ...are here for reasons of trying to convert anyone (not that I have seen)....they are here to correct misconceptions AND/OR people who misrepresent the RCC.

This forum is about understanding why people believe what they do.....I notice it's the non-Catholics who continually attack the Catholics (not just here), some in subtle ways and others very openly (as tulpje who sees nothign wrong with calling JP2 the anti christ). ...is this what you are supposed to do as a Christian?

If you think anyone is wrong then pray for them, and show them by example, not by words....people tend to prove if they are walking the walk by their actions.

LaRae

 

[tulpje]

Originally posted by Cartesian Kid:
Lorelei said:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> how many times did Christ cry out "Woe" to the scribes and Pharisees and those who were supposed to be living and teaching God's Word but instead they were defiling it and leading others away. Did Jesus just "love" them and shut his mouth? No, he cried out!

But Christ responded this way to the religious leaders, not to the followers. We never see Christ responding in any way except compassion and love towards the average Jewish person. Over and over in scripture we see strong condemnation for people who are perverting Biblical truths to set themselves up as righteous. That is why Jesus responded with such anger. But we never see that attitude displayed towards those who are genuinely following certain teachings, even if those teachings are false. The only proper response to those you disagree with you has to be humility and love. Jesus's example does not apply in the case of those Roman Catholics who are on this board.</font>[/QUOTE]John 8
31To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
33They answered him, "We are Abraham's descendants[2] and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?"
34Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37I know you are Abraham's descendants. Yet you are ready to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father.[3] "
39"Abraham is our father," they answered.
"If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would[4] 40 do the things Abraham did. As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41You are doing the things your own father does."
"We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself." 42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

 

[tulpje]

Originally posted by LaRae:
To all who think they have a right to show others the error of their ways.....

Who are you to decide if anyone is in error? Shouldn't you be more concerned with making sure you are doing what you should be (living by example etc) than pointing out what you think is wrong with how someone else chooses to worship?

I don't think the Catholics who are here ...are here for reasons of trying to convert anyone (not that I have seen)....they are here to correct misconceptions AND/OR people who misrepresent the RCC.

This forum is about understanding why people believe what they do.....I notice it's the non-Catholics who continually attack the Catholics (not just here), some in subtle ways and others very openly (as tulpje who sees nothign wrong with calling JP2 the anti christ). ...is this what you are supposed to do as a Christian?

If you think anyone is wrong then pray for them, and show them by example, not by words....people tend to prove if they are walking the walk by their actions.

LaRae

I disagree. We are not suppose to be tolerant of false teaching. the Lord calls us to be a light in the world and to admonish and correct false teaching and Christian error where it is found

Mark 16:15
He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.

2 Corinthians 13
8For we cannot do anything against the truth, but only for the truth.

1 John 1
5This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.

The scripture even go further to say that we are to seperate ourselves from those who who persist in mixing something false with God's word

Romans 16
17I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.

2 Corinthians 6
14Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15What harmony is there between Christ and Belial[1] ? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people."[2]
17"Therefore come out from them
and be separate, says the Lord.
Touch no unclean thing,
and I will receive you."[3]

2 Corinthians 7
1Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.

Titus 3
10Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him.

2 John
10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. 11Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.

I could go on, but I think you get the point

 

[Juan Diego]

Ok, let's try this.

Someone said: "I am sorry if you disrespect someone who holds the Word of God as Truth and looks to only that as the final authority."

1. Now it doesn't matter who said it because many of you all say the same thing.

2. Saying that you "hold the Word of God as Truth and looks to only that as the final authority" has little meaning. Saying over and over and over adds no more meaning to it. It may make you feel as though you are stating a truth, but does not do any more than that.

3. Your exaggeration that I "disrespect someone who holds the Word of God as Truth and looks to only that as the final authority" holds no water either. I have great respect for someone who actually believes the Word of God. What I have disrespect for is the disrespect of shouting "false doctrine" over and over and over with no proof that such is the case.

4. If something is a "false doctrine" you should be able to prove it without having to shout. As the radio ad asks, "Are you raising your voice when you should be reinforcing your argument?"

5. I have found that the people who keep saying such things as, "I am sorry if you disrespect someone who holds the Word of God as Truth and looks to only that as the final authority" usually can't back up their argument therefore they resort to rudeness and name calling.

Now you have made accusations that the Catholic Church doesn't believe the Bible. Please state those things and prove your point. You don't need to shout or get insulting. You can talk in a normal voice and I will be glad to listen. If you can't do that, I am not going to discuss the issues with you.

I will also say that from my point of view I don't grasp that you actually believe the Bible.

Some examples:

John 20:21. "...As the father has sent me, I also send you." when he had said this, he breathed upon them, and said to them, "receive the holy spirit; whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; whose sins you shall retain, they are retained."

Luke 10:16. "He who hears you, hears me; and he who rejects you, rejects me; and he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me."

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Matthew 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

John 3:5 "...unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit HE CANNOT ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD."

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Now, if you don't believe these few without applying an interpretation to them, I don't think you should accuse anyone else of not following the Word of God.

Sincerely,
God bless you,
Juan Diego

 

[Calvinist Dude]

Originally posted by tulpje:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Cartesian Kid:
Lorelei said:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> how many times did Christ cry out "Woe" to the scribes and Pharisees and those who were supposed to be living and teaching God's Word but instead they were defiling it and leading others away. Did Jesus just "love" them and shut his mouth? No, he cried out!

But Christ responded this way to the religious leaders, not to the followers. We never see Christ responding in any way except compassion and love towards the average Jewish person. Over and over in scripture we see strong condemnation for people who are perverting Biblical truths to set themselves up as righteous. That is why Jesus responded with such anger. But we never see that attitude displayed towards those who are genuinely following certain teachings, even if those teachings are false. The only proper response to those you disagree with you has to be humility and love. Jesus's example does not apply in the case of those Roman Catholics who are on this board.</font>[/QUOTE]John 8
31To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
33They answered him, "We are Abraham's descendants[2] and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?"
34Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37I know you are Abraham's descendants. Yet you are ready to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father.[3] "
39"Abraham is our father," they answered.
"If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would[4] 40 do the things Abraham did. As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41You are doing the things your own father does."
"We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself." 42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."</font>[/QUOTE]

Ok...first let me say that I have no problems taking a stand against false teaching. However, we are not Jesus. He was God. He could read people's minds and knew their hearts. We don't. And notice even in this passage how Jesus doesn't lash out at this group of Jews in the same manner that He does with the Pharisees and religious leaders. There is a difference in how we deal with those who are sincere adherents to their faith and those who are out to deceitfully promote their own righteousness.

Someone posted this earlier, but it deserves posting again.

1 Peter 3:15 "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:"

 

[Juan Diego]

Originally posted by LaRae:
To all who think they have a right to show others the error of their ways.....

Who are you to decide if anyone is in error? Shouldn't you be more concerned with making sure you are doing what you should be (living by example etc) than pointing out what you think is wrong with how someone else chooses to worship?

I don't think the Catholics who are here ...are here for reasons of trying to convert anyone (not that I have seen)....they are here to correct misconceptions AND/OR people who misrepresent the RCC.

This forum is about understanding why people believe what they do.....I notice it's the non-Catholics who continually attack the Catholics (not just here), some in subtle ways and others very openly (as tulpje who sees nothign wrong with calling JP2 the anti christ). ...is this what you are supposed to do as a Christian?

If you think anyone is wrong then pray for them, and show them by example, not by words....people tend to prove if they are walking the walk by their actions.

LaRae

God bless you dear woman. I could not say that better. May the Peace of Christ be with you now and ever and forever.

Juan Diego

 

[Juan Diego]

Originally posted by Cartesian Kid:
Ok...first let me say that I have no problems taking a stand against false teaching. However, we are not Jesus. He was God. He could read people's minds and knew their hearts. We don't. And notice even in this passage how Jesus doesn't lash out at this group of Jews in the same manner that He does with the Pharisees and religious leaders. There is a difference in how we deal with those who are sincere adherents to their faith and those who are out to deceitfully promote their own righteousness.

Someone posted this earlier, but it deserves posting again.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> 1 Peter 3:15 "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:"

</font>[/QUOTE]Very succinct. You deserve credit for your Christian attitude.

God bless you eternally,
Juan Diego

 

[tulpje]

Originally posted by Cartesian Kid:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tulpje:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Cartesian Kid:
Lorelei said:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> how many times did Christ cry out "Woe" to the scribes and Pharisees and those who were supposed to be living and teaching God's Word but instead they were defiling it and leading others away. Did Jesus just "love" them and shut his mouth? No, he cried out!

But Christ responded this way to the religious leaders, not to the followers. We never see Christ responding in any way except compassion and love towards the average Jewish person. Over and over in scripture we see strong condemnation for people who are perverting Biblical truths to set themselves up as righteous. That is why Jesus responded with such anger. But we never see that attitude displayed towards those who are genuinely following certain teachings, even if those teachings are false. The only proper response to those you disagree with you has to be humility and love. Jesus's example does not apply in the case of those Roman Catholics who are on this board.</font>[/QUOTE]John 8
31To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
33They answered him, "We are Abraham's descendants[2] and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?"
34Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37I know you are Abraham's descendants. Yet you are ready to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father.[3] "
39"Abraham is our father," they answered.
"If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would[4] 40 do the things Abraham did. As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41You are doing the things your own father does."
"We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself." 42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."</font>[/QUOTE]

Ok...first let me say that I have no problems taking a stand against false teaching. However, we are not Jesus. He was God. He could read people's minds and knew their hearts. We don't. There is a difference in how we deal with those who are sincere adherents to their faith and those who are out tAnd notice even in this passage how Jesus doesn't lash out at this group of Jews in the same manner that He does with the Pharisees and religious leaders. o deceitfully promote their own righteousness.

Someone posted this earlier, but it deserves posting again.

1 Peter 3:15 "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:"

</font>[/QUOTE]Huh? He calls the children of Satan!!!

 

[tulpje]

Originally posted by Juan Diego:
Ok, let's try this.

Someone said: "I am sorry if you disrespect someone who holds the Word of God as Truth and looks to only that as the final authority."

1. Now it doesn't matter who said it because many of you all say the same thing.

2. Saying that you "hold the Word of God as Truth and looks to only that as the final authority" has little meaning. Saying over and over and over adds no more meaning to it. It may make you feel as though you are stating a truth, but does not do any more than that.

3. Your exaggeration that I "disrespect someone who holds the Word of God as Truth and looks to only that as the final authority" holds no water either. I have great respect for someone who actually believes the Word of God. What I have disrespect for is the disrespect of shouting "false doctrine" over and over and over with no proof that such is the case.

4. If something is a "false doctrine" you should be able to prove it without having to shout. As the radio ad asks, "Are you raising your voice when you should be reinforcing your argument?"

5. I have found that the people who keep saying such things as, "I am sorry if you disrespect someone who holds the Word of God as Truth and looks to only that as the final authority" usually can't back up their argument therefore they resort to rudeness and name calling.

Now you have made accusations that the Catholic Church doesn't believe the Bible. Please state those things and prove your point. You don't need to shout or get insulting. You can talk in a normal voice and I will be glad to listen. If you can't do that, I am not going to discuss the issues with you.

I will also say that from my point of view I don't grasp that you actually believe the Bible.

Some examples:

John 20:21. "...As the father has sent me, I also send you." when he had said this, he breathed upon them, and said to them, "receive the holy spirit; whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; whose sins you shall retain, they are retained."

Luke 10:16. "He who hears you, hears me; and he who rejects you, rejects me; and he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me."

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Matthew 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

John 3:5 "...unless a man be born again of water and the Spirit HE CANNOT ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD."

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Now, if you don't believe these few without applying an interpretation to them, I don't think you should accuse anyone else of not following the Word of God.

Sincerely,
God bless you,
Juan Diego

I am not sure what your point is in using the Keys. The Keys are for the forgiveness of sins and baptism is also for the forgiveness of sins. What does this have to do with the conversation?

This is the great commision. All Christians are to go out into all the world and proclaim the word of God... then Christ gave them the Keys to forgive sin. I'm lost!

Actually, these are the verses that apply to the situation:

2 Timothy 4
2Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction. 3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

[ March 15, 2002, 08:39 AM: Message edited by: tulpje ]

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Juan Diego:
Now, if you don't believe these few without applying an interpretation to them, I don't think you should accuse anyone else of not following the Word of God.

Why do you get to apply an interpretation when we don't? That is inconsistent on your part.

As for your claims that we have not supported our views about what Catholics believe in opposition to the Bible, those claims have been substantiated in numerous places, both here in this forum and in published sources available from major publishing houses. I am reading one right now entitled, Faith Alone: The Evangelical Doctrine of Justification by R. C. Sproul. YOu might disagree with it but you certainly cannot say that he has not supported his ideas from Scripture and shown what he has said to be true. Sproul's information is not new; it has been known and said for centuries.

 

[chz]

Originally posted by Lorelei:
If you are not here to question our doctrine then why are you here?

Why would I question Baptist doctrine in a forum for Non-Baptist Doctrines? I'll stick with what I know... Catholic Doctrines... there's plenty of discussion on that here.

We are to speak out against false doctrines and false religions, but we aren't supposed to be tactless in doing so. See the problem is you only see your side. We say it so we are the ones being rude but we didn't go into your home to do it, you came to ours. Then you demand that we respect you and not speak what we believe. That is just unfair.

I think the point is that to me and other Catholics, simply stating "you are following a false doctrine" lacks tact (2 : a keen sense of what to do or say in order to maintain good relations with others or avoid offense). Such a broad statement is not a good discussion starter. You might try something like this:

"I believe that the Catholic doctrine of ______ is false because ... Can anyone help me understand why Catholics believe this?"

My responses are my opinion to the questions you originally asked. I hope you don't think I'm forcing anything down your throat because that is not my intenet.

 

[HankD]

Yes, those who make bold to speak in the name of God should do it in meekness, but meekness does not mean towards men but towards God.

Here is a model of what the truth sounds like from a man of whom the Word of God says that he was a man of faith, filled with the Holy Spirit.

Acts 7:
[51] Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
[52] Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been
now the betrayers and murderers:
[53] Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
[54] When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

59] And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
[60] And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Yes he asked that they be forgiven as we hope and pray that all those who preach a counterfeit gospel will be forgiven by receiving the truth.

The Baptist movement was born out of the persecutions and slaughters of the Church of Rome against Separatists and Protestants.

Your Roman Catholic "spiritual" forefathers murdered Jews, Muslims and Christians because they would not accept the dogma of the Church of Rome.

Those dogmas have not changed. Why are certain guests here at the BB amazed that we are still so adamant in rejecting them?

HankD

 

[Clint Kritzer]

Just a quick off topic comment here. Can everyone please refrain from using quote boxes containing thousands of characters to answer with four or five word responses? High light and lift your quote that you are addressing and say, John Doe said:

blah, blah, blah.

Some of you are wearing out my scroll button for nothing!

- Clint