We Do Not Limit Atonement!

[4study]

sturgman,

Interesting.
If the atonement appeases the wrath of God, why is the wrath of God eventually poured out upon the wicked?

Any apparent contradiction here is probably due to our different understandings of what atonement is.

Sin does not need to be forgiven. Rather, it needs to be removed. Removal (remission) is not forgiveness.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by sturgman:
Yelsew, I am sorry you feel that way, but if you ever change your mind, you are more than welcome to join in again.

Sturgman I responded to Bro Glen.

I raise no barriers, and my spirit remains open to all truth. I trust that you are not like Bro. Glen and thus closed to truth.

 

[Primitive Baptist]

At Calvary, an atonement was made, not made available for the sons of men to dispose of it in whatever way they see fit. It is the most heretical doctrine to preach an atonement that does not avail unless it be combined with the will of man. Such is the doctrine of Satan and all his ministers. Jesus made an actual atonement for actual sins. Those sins are covered, forever removed from the elect as far as the east is from the west, neverto be remembered against them anymore. It is only when we are made to see the truth of the word of God that we will understand what the Bible teaches, "And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, know the Lord, for they all shall know me from the least of them unto the greatest of them, For I will forgive their iniquities, and their sins will I remember no more."

 

[4study]

Primitive Baptist,

Jesus made an actual atonement for actual sins. Those sins are covered, forever removed from the elect as far as the east is from the west, neverto be remembered against them anymore.

Then God forgives sins regardless of one's faith.

 

[romanbear]

Hi P.B.

Atonement is not limited to Calvinist or the elect and this is not shown to be true anywhere except in Calvinism. Christ Paid the penality for all people everywhere and in every time until He returns.Heresey lies in the Calvinist camp when you say my Lords death didn't pay for everybody.Your wrong You limit that which God did for all man kind because you don't think He's worth that much.Thus your limited Atonement
Romanbear

 

[JGrayhound]

Sturgman, yes I am one and the same as JGray on DWebb board.

Yelsew, which statement was assinine? I made no outrageous statements. I accused you of being inconsistent...now prove me wrong (if you can). Don't resort to word-play. I responded to your quote which was contradictory.....address THAT issue.

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
This is where you Calvinist miss the boat. A man doesn't become "unable" to respond to God until he has rejected God.

And this is why so many discussions become fruitless arguments. You have ignored or at least overlooked a foundational truth. Man is conceived in sin and is already bent toward sin and needs no help seeking sin.

Now, one sin is enough to condemn. "All our righteousness is as filthy rags." You need a foreign righteousness to do good before God. According to Romans 1-11, men do not seek God, they do not please God, they set up idols, they try to earn favor with God, they are under Adam's condemnation, they abuse mercy, they are slaves of sin, they cannot obey the law of God, they do not strive for salvation, they have zeal without knowledge, and they question God's plan.

Arminians want to believe in the innate goodness of man so that he can choose to either follow the world or follow God. The fact is that he is sprinting ahead toward sin and the world and away from God.

 

[William C]

Originally posted by Preach the Word:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brother Bill:
This is where you Calvinist miss the boat. A man doesn't become "unable" to respond to God until he has rejected God.

And this is why so many discussions become fruitless arguments. You have ignored or at least overlooked a foundational truth. Man is conceived in sin and is already bent toward sin and needs no help seeking sin.

Now, one sin is enough to condemn. "All our righteousness is as filthy rags." You need a foreign righteousness to do good before God. According to Romans 1-11, men do not seek God, they do not please God, they set up idols, they try to earn favor with God, they are under Adam's condemnation, they abuse mercy, they are slaves of sin, they cannot obey the law of God, they do not strive for salvation, they have zeal without knowledge, and they question God's plan.

Arminians want to believe in the innate goodness of man so that he can choose to either follow the world or follow God. The fact is that he is sprinting ahead toward sin and the world and away from God. </font>[/QUOTE]Preach, your jumping in the middle of a debate that you obviously haven't read in its entirity. Go read my new post titled "Calvinism's teaching of Total Inablity is unfounded in scripture." See if you can answer those arguments for me.

Total Depavity, better stated "total inability has no support in scripture.

With Respect,
Bill

 

[Yelsew]

JGrayhound posted February 17, 2003 09:44 PM
Originally posted by Yelsew:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JGrayhound:
I believe he means that: if you reject the atonement for yourself, you have now limited its extent to everyone but yourself. You have acted as to exclude it from you. I guess one could also say, that it is no longer for the whole world if you reject it. Hmm. That gives me an even bigger look into the inconsistencies of Arminianism.

Yelsew said,

You are wrong JGrayhound! Atonement remains for the whole world (whosoever believes). Atonement is what God the Son did for mankind, and is not effected by man. One's acceptance or rejection of atonement affects the one only and not the whole of mankind. No one man's rejection of atonement affects any other man's atonement. Atonement is not limited by man in any conceivable fashion.

</font>[/QUOTE]--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JGrayhound replied

First, I said that "I believe he means...". It was my attempt to translate it for you, obviously it did not work.

Second, you have contradcited yourself. You said "atonement remains for the whole world (whosoever believes)". Is it the "whole world" or the "whosoever believes"? It cannot be both, because the whole world does not believe. So, which is it?????
If we can't get past your contradictions we can never have a real discussion.

JGrayhound posted February 17, 2003 09:46 PM

Furthermore, I did not say I agreed with what I posted, but it was the logical conclusion of your post before.

Yelsew posted February 17, 2003 11:49 PM

Second, you have contradcited yourself. You said "atonement remains for the whole world (whosoever believes)". Is it the "whole world" or the "whosoever believes"? It cannot be both, because the whole world does not believe. So, which is it?????
If we can't get past your contradictions we can never have a real discussion.

Yelsew said,

Do trees sin?
Do cattle sin?
Do mountains sin?
Do oceans sin?
Do winds sin?
Do Clouds sin?
Do the lilies of the field sin?

Do any of the above read the Holy Scriptures?
When the prophets spoke, was it to these things I listed?
When the Apostles "went to all the world, was it these that they made disciples baptising them?

NO! Every scripture is aimed at MAN and Man alone! You must stop to think when you try to apply scripture. All scripture is given to man and only to man!

JGrayhound posted February 17, 2003 11:54 PM
You know what I mean.

The question is: all men or all men who believe?

Yelsew posted February 18, 2003 01:00 AM

Originally posted by JGrayhound:
You know what I mean.

The question is: all men or all men who believe?

Yelsew replied,{quote]And you knew what I meant but that did not stop your asinine response to me.

JGrayhound posted February 18, 2003 06:23 PM

Yelsew, which statement was asinine? I made no outrageous statements. I accused you of being inconsistent...now prove me wrong (if you can). Don't resort to word-play. I responded to your quote which was contradictory.....address THAT issue.

It is asinine to infer that atonement, over which man has no control, is dependent upon whether a man believes or not! Atonement is entirely of God and is for all mankind regardless of whether or not even one man believes. Atonement, like the Creation, is entirely accomplished by God and not one of His created humans is exempted from that atonement.

Further, there is no inconsistency as you seem to think. If inconsistency exists it is in your understanding!

 

[romanbear]

Hi Preach the word;

A quote from you;
----------------------------------------------
Arminians want to believe in the innate goodness of man so that he can choose to either follow the world or follow God. The fact is that he is sprinting ahead toward sin and the world and away from God.
----------------------------------------------
Your right in that man doesn't want anything to do with God.This is why man has made so many, it helps him hide from the real God.But to say all man is another matter.The Jews for instance had the real God and are Gods chosen people even they run from him but again not all Jews run some are bold enough to say Lord take me and do what you will.I know many of them. The Jews never considered such thoughts as that of Calvinist. I know that God sent his Son into the world for all man not just the elect. Why does man have to be so ignorant of the truth is it because Satan is prowling around like a lion in all his deceitfulness. The father of lies and many believe his lies.Calvinism is such a lie.There is nothing in scripture that says grace is irresistible or that we have to be born again in order to have faith it's the other way around everytime.
Romanbear

 

[JGrayhound]

Yelsew, I never said that atonement was in any way dependent upon mankind....that is the Arminian position which I fully reject. I don't know why you think I hold that position.

I reject your view that atonement was for the whole world (at least in the way you mean it).

Let me clear something else up, since you seemed to be confused. The statement you made which I say is inconsistent is this: you said, "Atonement remains for the whole world (whosoever believes)".
My question is: is atonement for the whole world or "whosever believes"?

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by romanbear:
1. The Jews for instance had the real God and are Gods chosen people even they run from him but again not all Jews run some are bold enough to say Lord take me and do what you will.

2. There is nothing in scripture that says grace is irresistible or that we have to be born again in order to have faith it's the other way around everytime.

1. It is not often that an arminian is so bold as to reveal what they actually believe. You see, the difference between those who are lost and those who are saved is that those who are saved were bold enough to tell the Lord to do with them whatever he wants.

Romanbear, you are admitting that man has some goodness in him that is enough to save him. How can you not see this man-made, man-centered-, man-glorifying, idolatrous religion for what it is?

2. Let me correct you here. Not all calvinists believe that you must be born-again in order to believe. You are reading the thoughts of one now. Now, will you continue to say that they all believe that or will you retract your statement? Hmm....

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by romanbear:
Hi tyndale;
Your right the bible say's a lot of things you claim. It just doesn't say all that you claim. Like unconditional election irresistable grace being regenerated before we have faith.These are all lies from Augustine and the Catholic Church.It also doesn't say that we should murder those who disagree with us it doesn't say that the Church should be a government passing laws to prohibit other religons.This all in the name of Calvin and Calvinism. Just like his mentor a murder of thousands of Christians who wouldn't agree with him
Romanbear

Most martyrs were so condemned because of thier stand against infant baptism which ultimately taught that the infants, who could not make a choice either way, nor discern in any spiritual matters were wards of the church, thus baptism protected them if they died before able to be called accountable, and if they reached the age of 'accountability' the church could teach them to accept Christ, which is an intellectual, historical acceptance alone.

Baptists were hated, not because of their refusal to accept Calvinism, {TULIP} but because of their refusal to baptize their children, or submit to this by the state sponsored churches.

Even in our fair nation, in the colony of Virginia, Baptists were prohibited from preaching unless licensed by the state, [Anglican], and were prohibited from holding services in the same location, and from doing so more than once each month.

In Three Witnesses for the Baptists (I believe is where I read this) Bro. Curtis Pugh of Canada records an instance where three 'Baptists' were arrested at least one an laymember; they were fined and beaten for preaching the Gospel of the Son of God. ON ANOTHER OCCASSION PATRICK HENRY TRAVELLED FROM NEW YORK TO VA. TO DEFEND IN A COURT OF LAW SOME WHO WERE CHARGED WITH PREACHING THE GOSPEL OF THE SON OF GOD.

Most of this persecution resulted from refusal to accept infant baptism, not the Doctrines of Grace.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Frogman]

Sorry Brethren, I don't know how this happened

Originally posted by romanbear:
Hi tyndale;
Your right the bible say's a lot of things you claim. It just doesn't say all that you claim. Like unconditional election irresistable grace being regenerated before we have faith.These are all lies from Augustine and the Catholic Church.It also doesn't say that we should murder those who disagree with us it doesn't say that the Church should be a government passing laws to prohibit other religons.This all in the name of Calvin and Calvinism. Just like his mentor a murder of thousands of Christians who wouldn't agree with him
Romanbear

Most martyrs were so condemned because of thier stand against infant baptism which ultimately taught that the infants, who could not make a choice either way, nor discern in any spiritual matters were wards of the church, thus baptism protected them if they died before able to be called accountable, and if they reached the age of 'accountability' the church could teach them to accept Christ, which is an intellectual, historical acceptance alone.

Baptists were hated, not because of their refusal to accept Calvinism, {TULIP} but because of their refusal to baptize their children, or submit to this by the state sponsored churches.

Even in our fair nation, in the colony of Virginia, Baptists were prohibited from preaching unless licensed by the state, [Anglican], and were prohibited from holding services in the same location, and from doing so more than once each month.

In Three Witnesses for the Baptists (I believe is where I read this) Bro. Curtis Pugh of Canada records an instance where three 'Baptists' were arrested at least one an laymember; they were fined and beaten for preaching the Gospel of the Son of God. ON ANOTHER OCCASSION PATRICK HENRY TRAVELLED FROM NEW YORK TO VA. TO DEFEND IN A COURT OF LAW SOME WHO WERE CHARGED WITH PREACHING THE GOSPEL OF THE SON OF GOD.

Most of this persecution resulted from refusal to accept infant baptism, not the Doctrines of Grace.

Your freedoms brother are instilled in our Bill of Rights because Baptists were adamant about the issue of seperation of church and state.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

My question is: is atonement for the whole world or "whosever believes"?

YES!

 

[JGrayhound]

so, the whole world believes???

 

[Frogman]

Of, course, the whole world beleives, in the world system.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[KenH]

Personally, I have come to believe that there is no limitation to the atonement of Christ either in power(or effectiveness) or in intent(or extent). His atonement is unlimited in both power and intent.

 

[romanbear]

Hi Preach the word;

A quote from you;
------------------------------------------------
Romanbear, you are admitting that man has some goodness in him that is enough to save him. How can you not see this man-made, man-centered-, man-glorifying, idolatrous religion for what it is?
-------------------------------------------------
You should be ashamed of yourself talking to me like this.You can't manipulate me with guilt.I don't have any. My lord took all my guilt away when He died for me. Just like the Calvinist you are, accusing me of something I never said.This above is not from me this from you.You don't even know me and you are already are assuming and accusing me.

You cannot correct me. How can a person who believes in regeneration before faith ever believe such a thing. Show me in scripture where I have erred. Every place where faith and regeneration occurs faith always comes first. By the way "Regeneration" means to ("become renewed") the meaning of ("saved") or ("born again"). If you don't believe this then you are not a Calvinist.If Calvinist don't believe this then the whole tulip fails.There is no unconditional election no irresistible grace no limited Atonement ect.ect. Just prove me wrong....

Yes I believe in freewill and I suppose that since you seem to be unhappy with this then you must not believe it. You cannot dominate my beliefs. This what Calvin did in Geneva When He murdered Michael and hundreds of others for not agreeing with him. Or are you going to prove your points. Or just claim you are right.

This board is called Calvinist/Arminian debate. Why are you surprised that you would find someone who disagrees with you?. Is it because you know down deep that I'm right and can't admit it... At any rate Preach, I'm not the only one.You're conversing with one who will let his light shine weather you like it or not...The only way you can put it out is Kill me. I'm ready to die for what I believe in.Like Paul said to die is gain.I will never turn my back on my Lord for you or any Calvinist.
Romanbear

 

[romanbear]

Hi Ken;

Thank God you see this for real. Atonement isn't limited
Romanbear