We Do Not Limit Atonement!

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Those who failed to have faith in God the Creator are found unworthy by God to continue among the living.

I find that statement extremely revealing. "Those who failed to have faith are found unworthy by God" exposes the merit system in Arminian faith that many Arminians deny is in their theology. But what you wrote says it all -- those who choose to have faith are deemed "worthy" and merit salvation, and those who choose not to have faith are deemed "unworthy" and do not merit salvation.

worthy
1 a : having worth or value : ESTIMABLE <a worthy cause> b : HONORABLE, MERITORIOUS <worthy candidates>
2 : having sufficient worth or importance

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Frogman:
How can he be said to be a winner?

Well...if, according to the traditional idea, the vast majority spend eternity with Satan and only a distinct minority spend eternity with God, then hasn't Satan gotten what he desired(leaving out for the moment the debate over whether God is glorified by torturing His own creation for ever and ever)?

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
1)I read the articles on the internet that you posted.

2)It just doesn't seem to be a very strong case too me.

3)I wonder why that is?

1) I appreciate you taking the time.

2) Personally, I find the arguments about the use of forever in the Old Testament in describing certain items, such as the Aaronic priesthood, very interesting on this matter. Obviously, God did not intend for that priesthood to last more than about 1500 years, certainly not for eternity or even for the duration of this earthly age, even though God said it was a "forever" priesthood.

3) Personally, I hope it is because there are more and more people who are examining their beliefs with the Bible and if what they grew up believing or what they have accepted as traditional do not line up with what they now understand the Bible to be truly teaching, they then change to be more accurate with what they understand God's Word to teach - knowing that none of us will ever understand God's Word 100% accurately.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
1)Why should you be concerned?

2)That is why it is absolutely, totally important that you, and all of us, tell others who have not heard, the Gospel about Jesus.

1) Because I care what happens to people and what ultimately happens to them.

2) You do realize that the vast majority of people have never heard the gospel?

Personally, I no longer find it acceptable, from any theological perspective, to feel snug and secure because I don't believe I will go through the lake of fire while not looking at whether the traditional teaching on hell is accurate because I don't think it will affect me.

 

[Frogman]

2) Personally, I find the arguments about the use of forever in the Old Testament in describing certain items, such as the Aaronic priesthood, very interesting on this matter. Obviously, God did not intend for that priesthood to last more than about 1500 years, certainly not for eternity or even for the duration of this earthly age, even though God said it was a "forever" priesthood.

This was typifying the eternal preisthood of Christ.

Bro. Dallas

 

[William C]

Originally posted by Ken H:

3) Personally, I hope it is because there are more and more people who are examining their beliefs with the Bible and if what they grew up believing or what they have accepted as traditional do not line up with what they now understand the Bible to be truly teaching, they then change to be more accurate with what they understand God's Word to teach - knowing that none of us will ever understand God's Word 100% accurately.

I think its because Calvinist hate the idea of a God who would torture someone for all of eternity who never had the ability to do anything about their condition.

Calvinism's soterioligical stance leads the mind of even believers down a confusing, fatalistic path that causes all kinds of tormoil in the lives of the individuals, who honestly deal with these issues, and the church that has consistantly been divided on this issue.

God is the God of peace not confusion. I can understand the gospel causing non-believers confusion, but for years this issue has been highly debated by great men and women on both sides of the issue. Calvinist admit that everyone is "born" Arminian, and that unless they are convinced through doctrine they will remain Arminian. But look at the fruits of this doctrine throughout history, church splits, confusion among believers who hear it, anti-evangelism (when taken to seed) and a host of other such divisive results. Is that of God?

To believers, the gospel should lead to peace, not confusion. The gospel should lead one to think of God's love, mercy and goodness toward us, not his arbitary wrath upon those who never had any opprotunity.

Just as we can know believers by their fruits, you can tell a doctrine by it's fruit.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
Just as we can know believers by their fruits, you can tell a doctrine by it's fruit.

That is a double-edged sword. Just think about the easy believism and spiritual shallowness that free-willism has wrought in some circles.

Until and unless someone convinces me that the Fall in the Garden of Eden did not actually cause man to die spiritually, I will remain a Calvinist with a Christian universalist viewpoint.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Frogman:
This was typifying the eternal preisthood of Christ.

So we are not to take the words as applying to the Aaronic priesthood even though that is what they say in their ordinary meaning?

 

[Frogman]

If God said it was 'forever' then what would be the ordinary meaning of it? If not to point to the eternal priesthood in Christ?

Bro. Dallas

 

[romanbear]

Hi Ken;

A quote from you;
-----------------------------------
Until and unless someone convinces me that the Fall in the Garden of Eden did not actually cause man to die spiritually, I will remain a Calvinist with a Christian universalist viewpoint.
-----------------------------------
My reply;
Ken how would you like to start;
1.No where does the Bible say our spirits are dead because of the fall of Adam.If I'm wrong show me.
Romanbear

 

[William C]

Originally posted by Ken H:

That is a double-edged sword. Just think about the easy believism and spiritual shallowness that free-willism has wrought in some circles.

That is from a totally different debate concerning Lordship salvation. The idea that one can have Christ as Savior but not as Lord. That type of error is made by Calvinists and Arminians alike.

Until and unless someone convinces me that the Fall in the Garden of Eden did not actually cause man to die spiritually, I will remain a Calvinist with a Christian universalist viewpoint.

Why do you believe that scriptures teaching about being dead in our sins means that man is incapable of responding to the geniune and powerful calling of the gospel? And if that powerful gospel can't have affect on anyone, what is its purpose?

With Respect,
Bro. Bill

 

[KenH]

Romanbear and Brother Bill,

I would direct your attention to Ephesians 2:1-10.

The gospel is the power of God unto salvation. The Holy Spirit is the One Who energizes our dead spirits(regeneration) to respond in repentance and belief to the gospel call.

Anything or anyone that is dead cannot respond to any stimulus whatsoever. It or he must be given life first.

This is THE fundamental point of controversy between Calvinists and non-Calvinists. We do not agree on this point and will never agree on this point during our time on this earth. This is simply an area where our two theological systems cannot be reconciled and it is THE area from which the rest of our soteriological disagreements spring.

 

[Primitive Baptist]

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;" [Ephesians 2:1]

"And you, being dead in the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;" [Colossians 2:13]

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by npetreley:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
Those who failed to have faith in God the Creator are found unworthy by God to continue among the living.

I find that statement extremely revealing. "Those who failed to have faith are found unworthy by God" exposes the merit system in Arminian faith that many Arminians deny is in their theology. But what you wrote says it all -- those who choose to have faith are deemed "worthy" and merit salvation, and those who choose not to have faith are deemed "unworthy" and do not merit salvation.

worthy
1 a : having worth or value : ESTIMABLE &lt;a worthy cause&gt; b : HONORABLE, MERITORIOUS &lt;worthy candidates&gt;
2 : having sufficient worth or importance </font>[/QUOTE]It is exactly the same in Calvinism! If you do not have faith you are unworthy! If that is not the truth of Calvinism, then Calvinism is false doctrine.

 

[Frogman]

It is exactly the same in Calvinism! If you do not have faith you are unworthy! If that is not the truth of Calvinism, then Calvinism is false doctrine.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't know how you get this, Calvinists claim faith comes from God alone, no-one can possess faith, except God provides it.

Grace mixed with works is false. Grace is unmerited favor, so we all are unworthy, it is a Gift of God.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
Just as we can know believers by their fruits, you can tell a doctrine by it's fruit.

Did you konw that the Great Awakenings and virtually of the early church planting in this country as well as the modern missions movement in England took place by strong calvinists?? You are right that you can tell a doctrine by its fruit. The fruit of calvinism has been church planting, evangelism, and holy living ... things worth our imitation.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by romanbear:
1.No where does the Bible say our spirits are dead because of the fall of Adam.If I'm wrong show me.

Rom 5:12-21 would be a good place to start. There, we are all dead because of one man's sin. That is obviously not physical death so it must be spiritual death.

Likewise Eph 2:1-3 talks of us being dead in trespasses and sins in which we walk (i.e., live) according to this word. Again, it is obviously not physical death so it must be spiritual. While that passage does not attribute it to Adam, it talks of the nature of spiritual death, describing it, not as the ability to do nothing at all, but rather as the fact that we all walk in sin becuase of our nature as the children of wrath. This verse passage talks of the gracious intervention of God.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Frogman:
It is exactly the same in Calvinism! If you do not have faith you are unworthy! If that is not the truth of Calvinism, the Calvinism is false doctrine.

I don't know how you get this, Calvinists claim faith comes from God alone, no-one can possess faith, except God provides it.

Grace mixed with works is false. Grace is unmerited favor, so we all are unworthy, it is a Gift of God.

No one can live and breathe except God allows it.
No one can drive a car except God allows it.
No one can procreate except God allows it.
No one can believe except God allows it.
No one can disbelieve except God allows it.

So what's the point?

GOD ALLOWS IT!

WE are all equally under God's one Grace where He allows man to behave in the manner that man will, and with all the capabilities with which God made man which included Free will (including choice), love, hate, mercy, cruelty, Justice, tyranny, peace, war, fear, etc. God lets us do it our way.

It is up to us, using the capabilities we are given to first and foremost hear the Gospel and choose to believe in Jesus, then to behave according to our beliefs. We are responsible for our choices and conduct else there would be NO JUDGMENT! That is what judgment is all about. If you eliminate free will, then you must eliminate judgment!

Calvinism does not eliminate Judgment, therefore Calvinism must accept human Free Will. It is a "both" situation where you cannot have one without the other.

 

[Yelsew]

Rom 5:12-21 would be a good place to start. There, we are all dead because of one man's sin. That is obviously not physical death so it must be spiritual death.

Likewise Eph 2:1-3 talks of us being dead in trespasses and sins in which we walk (i.e., live) according to this word. Again, it is obviously not physical death so it must be spiritual. While that passage does not attribute it to Adam, it talks of the nature of spiritual death, describing it, not as the ability to do nothing at all, but rather as the fact that we all walk in sin becuase of our nature as the children of wrath. This verse passage talks of the gracious intervention of God.

That is A FALSE CONCLUSION!

From God's perspective, our unredeemed spirit is dead. That is a relationship issue, and not a physical or spiritual reality. Scripture says that the life of the flesh is spirit. If the spirit is dead, the flesh is dead too! If the flesh lives, that is ample evidence that the spirit lives, and is therefore redeemable.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Originally posted by Yelsew:

The fact is, it was a ONCE for ALL sacrifice, one that is contingent upon the ones for whom the sacrifice was made.

This quote is from Hebrews 10:10, the context of the chapter of which pertained to sacrifices and offerings.

Yelsew and his fellow Arminians would like to make it read and say once for all men, when the writer to the Hebrews obviously meant once for all sacrifices and offerings.
Jesus Christ is the Passover Lamb, He is the Scapegoat who carries the sins of the people away into the wilderness, He is the blood offering, He is the turtledove, He is the Mercy Seat, He is every animal that is to be sacrificed as a blood atonement, as a sin offering.
His death fulfilled ALL offerings and sacrifices, and after Him there are NO MORE sacrifices that need to be offered by His people, spiritual Israel, represented by national Israel, to whom these laws and sacrifices were commanded.
All those laws and sacrifices were pointing to the cross, and the Lamb of God that was sacrificed on that cross, for the sins of many.
He atoned for the sins of His people reconciling them to God thru His death, securing their salvation by taking on the penalty of their sins upon Himself, satisfying God's wrath and meeting the full demands of God's justice.