Featured We don't WANT "Free-Will"

Well, actually, in the Calvinistic system the work of God is regeneration, which makes men willing to repent and believe. Faith is still said to be man's. "You of little faith..." "Your faith has healed you..." "His faith was weak...." "Their faith was strong...." etc. Calvinists, at least the scholars I know, don't teach that God believes for man, but that God gives men a new heart which effectually causes them to believe and desire Him. So, if you (or Aaron) believe that faith is meritoriously 'GOOD' then you too would have to affirm we are saved by Grace through a work. Now, you may add the caveat, "by Grace through a work produced in us effectually by God," but nevertheless it is still a work if you hold to that view.

 

It is a fruit of the powerful Holy Spirit wrought Gospel, but not effectually applied. People aren't born with faith in Christ. That is just an absurdity used to misrepresent and distract from the our actual point of contention. One, Aaron has always dismissed as being irrelevant.

Here is where Piper, and Calvinists who have a better understanding of what is meant by meritorious faith, disagree with you. As the article of Piper's I quoted early explains, even Calvinists don't believe faith is 'meritoriously good," which must be what you are saying here since you already defined all 'good' as being 'meritorious.' BTW, I'm still waiting for a reference to all those lexicons and dictionaries that are supposedly in agreement with you on that point?

 

If you consider faith as being 'good' (which you have) and you consider 'good' being meritorious (deserving or earning divine favor--which you have), then you are the ONLY one of us who believes faith is a work.

Which comes to pass when someone is informed or has experienced that which is to be believed. i.e. "I believe GW is our first president after the history lesson."

"And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard?" -Paul

"Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." 30 Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." John 20

Why did the first group believe? Because they had seen him.
Why do we believe? Because we heard/read their story.

So, why doesn't everyone who hears/reads the story believe it? Because they choose to 'trade the truth in for lies' and harden their hearts toward their creator. (Rm 1) They perish because they refused to accept the clear revelation of divine truth. (2 Thess 2)

This is an intentional misrepresentation of what we have clearly claimed to believe. A work is meritorious, and we believe the only words that merited anything were the works of Christ. Faith is not meritorious. Since when does the ability to resist or rebel against truth make believing the truth deserve all the riches of Heaven and salvation?

If Aaron can prove that the ability of man to reject God's truth and gracious provision makes the ability to believe it meritorious, then I'll concede, but right now it is nothing more than an unfounded opinion of a man who still has yet to demonstrate he is even aware of the meaning of the word meritorious.

 

Wow... I have a couple of concerns here...
1) Aaron, you say, "If it is carnal faith..."

It seems to me that you are saying that there is more than one kind of faith. As though there is another kind of faith than what can be described as "to trust or believe or hope". How would it be described then? Enlighten me to this mysterious 'new' description! I've never heard a description matching the context of this thread that would be other than what I have proposed, so consider this your opportunity to speak truth to me that I may believe the truth!

What I think is a more accurate description of what you are doing is that you are changing the meaning of the word faith. If your definition holds true then is it even possible to have a 'misplaced' faith?​

2) Aaron, you continue on defining a carnal faith as, "a faith one possesses by nature like that of a child's belief in Santa Claus"

While the object of their trust is false, their faith is 'faith' regardless. You say it is not faith at all, I say it is misplaced faith. What was Jesus describing when he said, "...unless you... become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."? Was he not speaking of our a believing and trusting attitude? How is a trust in something false different than a trust in something true? The only difference is the object of our trust. What is trusted is the difference. In Ephesians 2:8 it is being saved that is being identified here as the gift of God, not the 'trust'. ​

3) Aaron, you speak of "straighforward witness", which, more fairly stated, is you and not the Holy Spirit. This 'straighforward witness' uses terms that are not so straight. For example, the definition of "faith" is no longer clear from this witness. This witness is abusing the rules of language, grammar and reason. You seem to say that 'faith' cannot be 'faith' unless it's object is true. However, if that is the case then one cannot be accurate in claiming that a 'false faith' even exists for such would be a circular thought that is also internally contradictory, and therefore makes no sense. The 'sense' derived from such an idea would have to be 'other' than what the phrase can actually mean. This is absurd.

Your definition and reasoning of faith:
Premise a) Faith is only 'belief/trust/hope in a true object'
Premise b) That which is belief/trust/hope in an untrue object is not faith.
Therefore: If 'Pa' then there cannot be a logical state of 'not-Pa'
One would expect that 'not-Pa' is equal to 'Pb' but it is not since there is an error in the 'Pa' premise that makes the argument as a whole, circular.

Questions:
1.What is the word for that which is "belief/trust/hope" in an untrue object"?
2. In your opinion is there such a word for that which is "belief/trust/hope" that we could start using if you will not accept that word to be 'faith'?