We have to obey Jesus!

[DHK]

Do you believe that we have to obey after we are saved? DHK says that we do not have to obey after we are saved and we will remain saved. However, the Bible says if we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth, and the person who has deceived themselves. DHK speaks untruths, and I love showing the Truth with the written Word of God.

Moriah speaks untruths not the Word of God.
Moriah misrepresents what DHK has said, thus has lied.
Lying is a transgression of God's Law. James 2:10; 1Jn. 3:4

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
--serious trouble Moriah.

My position: I never said that one does not "have to obey" after we are saved. That is the norm. However we obey out of love not out of duty.
I also said there are exceptions, such as the thief on the cross, and many others who get saved just before they die. There is not enough time for them to do any works.
So, Moriah, don't misrepresent my position and lie. If sinlessness is your position you have failed. You need to get saved all over again. Repent of this ugly sin. No matter what your theological position is, you still need to repent of your lies about my position, your misrepresentation of my position.
We are created "unto good works." Salvation is by grace through faith...not of works (good works included in that definition).

 

[The Biblicist]

Moriah speaks untruths not the Word of God.
Moriah misrepresents what DHK has said, thus has lied.
Lying is a transgression of God's Law. James 2:10; 1Jn. 3:4.

Moriah demands that we must "do" something to be saved and therefore, he demands we must have "works" as "works" are what we DO!

On the other hand she attempts to deny that "works of the Law" refer to what we do but rather refers to one aspect of "the law" or the ceremonial law or only those things that gentiles must "do" to become a Jew. She is forced to this conclusion because Paul says we are justified "without works" and not "by the works of the law."

However, this redefinition of "the works of the Law" does not harmonize with Romans 2 or Romans 7 where the works of the Law by the Jew are defined to include the TEN COMMANDMENTS just as James 2:10-11 includes the TEN COMMANDMENTS. The law of Moses is the MOST COMPREHENSIVE application of the Law to man ever given and thus is inclusive of all lessor applicatons of God's law such as the ten commandments or as written upon the conscience of the Gentiles.

Hence, the "works of the Law" cannot be restricted to merely one aspect of the law or those things that Gentiles do to become Jews but include "the WHOLE law" and everything God commanded Moses.

Therefore, Paul says we are justified "without works" and thus without PERSONAL OBEDIENCE or things we DO simply because justification depends solely upon CHRIST'S OBEDIENCE to the Law not ours. Not ours because only Christ's obedience can satisfy the full demands of the law whereas our obedience or DOING always "COMES SHORT" of the "glory of God" which is the SINLESS RIGHTEOUSNESS of God - which is the only deserving Standard of righteousness God could demand for salvation. It would be oxymoronic for God's standard to be "be almost perfect" or "do the best you can" but that is precisely what Moriah is forced to embrace as God's standard for righteousness and what she would offer God to satisfy the demands of His Law - almost perfect, best I can do, etc.!

 

[Moriah]

Moriah speaks untruths not the Word of God.
Moriah misrepresents what DHK has said, thus has lied.
Lying is a transgression of God's Law. James 2:10; 1Jn. 3:4

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
--serious trouble Moriah.

My position: I never said that one does not "have to obey" after we are saved. That is the norm. However we obey out of love not out of duty.
I also said there are exceptions, such as the thief on the cross, and many others who get saved just before they die. There is not enough time for them to do any works.
So, Moriah, don't misrepresent my position and lie. If sinlessness is your position you have failed. You need to get saved all over again. Repent of this ugly sin. No matter what your theological position is, you still need to repent of your lies about my position, your misrepresentation of my position.
We are created "unto good works." Salvation is by grace through faith...not of works (good works included in that definition).

I do not lie. You did say that we do not have to obey to stay saved! You said it affects our fellowship and not our salvation. You keep slandering me, twisting, and lying.

 

[DHK]

I do not lie. You did say that we do not have to obey to stay saved! You said it affects our fellowship and not our salvation. You keep slandering me, twisting, and lying.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

When you don't continue in obedience you sin. When you sin you deceive yourself, the truth is not in you, you make Christ a liar, and his word is not in you.

Your salvation is lost; you have no hope in eternity.
OTOH, My salvation is kept secure in the hand of Christ. I do not have to depend on works to be saved. I am saved by grace through faith and not of good works.

 

[Moriah]

saved by grace/faith ALONE by the Lord, and once saved by him,

You are the one who needs to be told to believe the Word of God!
The only time “faith alone” is spoken of, is when James tells us what kind of faith NOT to have! That it is dead, useless.

we than Are indeed expected to obey him, but that is what our new natures will want to do, but still have to overcome old sin natures in us by reckoning our bodies dead to sin, now alive in Christ, and rely upon the empowering of the Holy spirit!

We are to know and understand BEFORE we are saved that we are to obey Him! DHK and you say we know and understand NOTHING about God’s Word.
We are to have a heart that God chooses to save! The Bible tells us.

DHK NOT saying Christians should not obey God,

Stop saying things I do not say. Just like you say things the Bible does not say when you keep saying “faith alone.”

he is saying do it out of love for Him, as we live to please him, not to obey in order to get or kept saved!

DHK says that even if we never obey after being saved, that we will remain saved! That is what DHK says. The Bible says that is a deceived person and a liar.

 

[The Biblicist]

The only time “faith alone” is spoken of, is when James tells us what kind of faith NOT to have! That it is dead, useless.

Faith alone does not save. Faith must embrace the truth of the Gospel in the sense of TRUST in it as the only hope of Salvation. Demons cannot do that. They can only believe in the sense of acknowledge the truth of it but never commit trust in it as their own hope.

Faith alone does not save anyone but it must embrace the truth of the gospel as ones only hope of salvation.

Hence, it is no more "faith alone" but "faith IN Christ." Faith in Chist IS obedience to the gospel whereas rejecting the good news that Christ FINISHED and SATISIED the full demands of God's righteousness for salvation BY HIS OWN WORKS is disobedience to the gospel. Asserting YOUR PERSONAL OBEDIENCE needs to be ADDED to the obedience of Christ to FINISH or SATISFY God's righteous demands is DISOBEDIENCE to the gospel.

 

[DHK]

DHK says that even if we never obey after being saved, that we will remain saved! That is what DHK says. The Bible says that is a deceived person and a liar.

I do not teach that.
You lie about my position.
I give you examples like the thief of the cross who never had time for any good works.

Read again Eph.2:8,9.
This time, lest you insert your own interpretation of works take a look at a couple of other translations for verse 9:

(CEV) It isn't something you have earned, so there is nothing you can brag about.

(Darby) not on the principle of works, that no one might boast.

There is no reference to the works of the law. They are works that you do, works that one does to merit eternal life. They have nothing to do with the OT.

 

[The Biblicist]

Faith alone does not save. Faith must embrace the truth of the Gospel in the sense of TRUST in it as the only hope of Salvation. Demons cannot do that. They can only believe in the sense of acknowledge the truth of it but never commit trust in it as their own hope.

Faith alone does not save anyone but it must embrace the truth of the gospel as ones only hope of salvation.

Hence, it is no more "faith alone" but "faith IN Christ." Faith in Chist IS obedience to the gospel whereas rejecting the good news that Christ FINISHED and SATISIED the full demands of God's righteousness for salvation BY HIS OWN WORKS is disobedience to the gospel. Asserting YOUR PERSONAL OBEDIENCE needs to be ADDED to the obedience of Christ to FINISH or SATISFY God's righteous demands is DISOBEDIENCE to the gospel.

On the other thread you were asked about how God saved you and you responded:


I wanted God’s Truth, not other religion’s truth.
I got forceful, I stopped doubting completely, I feared God, I humbled myself and confessed that I was a sinner and hated all my sins. I put God before all things and all people.

I started to do things Jesus said, like forgive others because God will not forgive me unless I forgive others. I got married. I tried to make myself the seed that fell along the good soil. I kept knocking until the door was answered. I would never give up or stop searching no matter what or how long it took.

Tell me, if there is nothing you can do to be the person God saves, then why are there so many who say they believe in God and Jesus and keep sinning as there has been no change? The Bible says they are deceived and liars. - Moriah

To which I merely quoted three scripture references without any comments

Rom. 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Lk. 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

Mt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


To which you replied as follows:


The scripture you quote is about the Jews who helped in their cleansing before God, when they did ceremonial washings. That scripture you quote is about the Jews who still think they must do something before coming to God, like observance of special days, like offerings.
- Moriah

Please explain how not being "unjust" not being an "adulterer" claiming Christ as "Lord, Lord" and having done "many wonderful things" and "in thy name" belongs to things necessary to become a Jew or the ceremonial laws?????

 

[The Biblicist]

On the other thread you were asked about how God saved you and you responded:


I wanted God’s Truth, not other religion’s truth.
I got forceful, I stopped doubting completely, I feared God,I humbled myself and confessed that I was a sinner and hated all my sins. I put God before all things and all people.

I started to do things Jesus said, like forgive others because God will not forgive me unless I forgive others. I got married. I tried to make myself the seed that fell along the good soil. I kept knocking until the door was answered. I would never give up or stop searching no matter what or how long it took.

Tell me, if there is nothing you can do to be the person God saves, then why are there so many who say they believe in God and Jesus and keep sinning as there has been no change? The Bible says they are deceived and liars. - Moriah

Notice in the testimony provided by Moriah there is not one word about what Christ did for her or even trusting in Christ to save her but it is all about what "I" did and "I" am doing! Works is a CHRISTLESS soteriology.

 

[Moriah]

I do not teach that.

You do teach that! If you do not teach that, then say it now that we MUST OBEY TO REMAIN SAVED.

You lie about my position.
I give you examples like the thief of the cross who never had time for any good works.

You see, you even use the thief on the cross to defend your false words. You said we do not have to obey and if we do not obey, we are still saved.
You prove I have not lied.
As for the thief, he did obey! He feared God. He humbled himself. He confessed his sin and acknowledged that he deserved the suffering he was doing for his sin. He called on Jesus when he asked Jesus to remember him.

Read again Eph.2:8,9.
This time, lest you insert your own interpretation of works take a look at a couple of other translations for verse 9:

(CEV) It isn't something you have earned, so there is nothing you can brag about.

(Darby) not on the principle of works, that no one might boast.

Ephesians 2:8-9 is about there is nothing we did to cause God to decide to save us, God made the plan for salvation before the creation of the world. This is evident when Paul tells us of good works we are to do after we are saved. This scripture does not nullify the scriptures that tell us to believe, repent, confess, trust, and call on the name of the Lord.
It means we did not do anything to have God make the plan for us to be saved. We did not do special ceremonial washings, we did not give animal sacrifices, we did not have to buy ten people a house.
You said we understand nothing until after we are saved. You still have not explained how we can trust in Jesus when we understand NOTHING about him!


You kept saying we do not have to obey to remain saved. YOU SAID THAT MANY TIMES.
Just the fact that we do have to obey after we are saved, this should show you that you misunderstand about obeying and different kinds of works. If we prove our salvation by works, then a person who is not saved should do works and it will prove they are saved! However, you call those accursed and condemned beliefs.
Tell us DHK, if a person says they believe in God and Jesus, but they do not live any different from before, what do you tell them? You see, we must teach others to believe and obey.

 

[Moriah]

Notice in the testimony provided by Moriah there is not one word about what Christ did for her or even trusting in Christ to save her but it is all about what "I" did and "I" am doing!

I did those things so that the Only One who could save me would save me.
You judge me falsely. You speak as a man with no understanding.

You say I did not trust Christ, after I told you I got Jesus' words and did them, I trusted Jesus so much that I relied on what he said to be true.

 

[Moriah]

Please explain how not being "unjust" not being an "adulterer" claiming Christ as "Lord, Lord" and having done "many wonderful things" and "in thy name" belongs to things necessary to become a Jew or the ceremonial laws?????

The Pharisees did not believe in Jesus.

The Pharisees did not admit they were sinners! The Pharisees and the teachers of the law were the only ones who were not baptized with John’s baptism!

I told you that I admitted I was a sinner and that I hated my sins!

 

[The Biblicist]

I did those things so that the Only One who could save me would save me.
You judge me falsely. You speak as a man with no understanding.

You say I did not trust Christ, after I told you I got Jesus' words and did them, I trusted Jesus so much that I relied on what he said to be true.

I simply quoted your own salvation testimony!

What a difference between your testimony and the testimony of the Apostle Paul:

Gal. 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews’ religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
14 And profited in the Jews’ religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace,
16 To reveal his Son in me,

1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

1Ti 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

 

[The Biblicist]

On the other thread you were asked about how God saved you and you responded:


I wanted God’s Truth, not other religion’s truth.
I got forceful, I stopped doubting completely, I feared God, I humbled myself and confessed that I was a sinner and hated all my sins. I put God before all things and all people.

I started to do things Jesus said, like forgive others because God will not forgive me unless I forgive others. I got married. I tried to make myself the seed that fell along the good soil. I kept knocking until the door was answered. I would never give up or stop searching no matter what or how long it took.

Tell me, if there is nothing you can do to be the person God saves, then why are there so many who say they believe in God and Jesus and keep sinning as there has been no change? The Bible says they are deceived and liars. - Moriah

To which I merely quoted three scripture references without any comments

Rom. 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Lk. 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

Mt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


To which you replied as follows:


The scripture you quote is about the Jews who helped in their cleansing before God, when they did ceremonial washings. That scripture you quote is about the Jews who still think they must do something before coming to God, like observance of special days, like offerings.
- Moriah

Please explain how not being "unjust" not being an "adulterer" claiming Christ as "Lord, Lord" and having done "many wonderful things" and "in thy name" belongs to things necessary to become a Jew or the ceremonial laws?????

And your explanation is.........????

 

[DHK]

You do teach that! If you do not teach that, then say it now that we MUST OBEY TO REMAIN SAVED.

You have twisted my words. A Christian does do good works after he is saved. I have always maintained that. But he doesn't do good works in order to maintain his salvation. If that were true, then it would make Christ a liar and his atonement would all be in vain. His promise of the gift of eternal life would not be true. Temporary life is not eternal life. They shall never perish would be a lie. Christ would be found a liar in many, many of his promises to believers. Therefore, the theology that you are teaching here is heretical and false, and needs to be refuted strongly.
"Flee from these things."

You see, you even use the thief on the cross to defend your false words. You said we do not have to obey and if we do not obey, we are still saved.

The thief on the cross did no works and yet was saved. There are many that do not have the chance to do good works and still are saved. You act like the RCC who teach that the priest must get there to perform extreme unction or last rites before the member dies to make sure he will make it. Are you still holding on to Catholic beliefs?? The RCC also teaches a religion of good works, just like you. Perhaps you are one of them in disguise.

As for the thief, he did obey! He feared God. He humbled himself. He confessed his sin and acknowledged that he deserved the suffering he was doing for his sin. He called on Jesus when he asked Jesus to remember him.

None of which is counted as good works. He put his faith in Christ. He was saved. One doesn't not have to analyze and break that down step by step just to justify his position on good works. What foolishness!

Ephesians 2:8-9 is about there is nothing we did to cause God to decide to save us, God made the plan for salvation before the creation of the world. This is evident when Paul tells us of good works we are to do after we are saved.

Agreed. But those good works do not maintain our salvation. The verse does not say that.

This scripture does not nullify the scriptures that tell us to believe, repent, confess, trust, and call on the name of the Lord.

You sound like the COC, who define each one of the above as "works," which of course is not true. They are different aspects of faith. And faith is not a work.

It means we did not do anything to have God make the plan for us to be saved. We did not do special ceremonial washings, we did not give animal sacrifices, we did not have to buy ten people a house.

I gave you two other translations of verse nine to show you that verse 9 does not refer to those OT works. It has nothing to do with special ceremonies. It has to do with good works: even going to church, praying, reading one's Bible, doing good to your neighbor, etc. All are as filthy rags in God's sight. He won't look upon them.

You said we understand nothing until after we are saved. You still have not explained how we can trust in Jesus when we understand NOTHING about him!

I have explained it many times using the Ethiopian Eunuch as an example. He understood nothing, nothing on his own! Not until Philip came and preached Christ to him out of the OT Scriptures did he understand. He couldn't understand the Scriptures on his own.

You kept saying we do not have to obey to remain saved. YOU SAID THAT MANY TIMES.

That is right. Do you like to make Christ a liar?

Just the fact that we do have to obey after we are saved, this should show you that you misunderstand about obeying and different kinds of works. If we prove our salvation by works, then a person who is not saved should do works and it will prove they are saved! However, you call those accursed and condemned beliefs.

A Christian does works out of his love for Christ, not because he has to do them. Some will never have a chance to do them. That doesn't mean they are not saved. You make Christ a liar when he says "I give unto them eternal life." There are no conditions attached to that. He does not say: "I give unto them eternal life if they obey." He did not say that. You make him lie.

Tell us DHK, if a person says they believe in God and Jesus, but they do not live any different from before, what do you tell them? You see, we must teach others to believe and obey.

I don't tell them they are not saved. I work from the time they were saved, and see what happened. You condemn them.

 

[Moriah]

I simply quoted your own salvation testimony!

What a difference between your testimony and the testimony of the Apostle Paul:

Gal. 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews’ religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
14 And profited in the Jews’ religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace,
16 To reveal his Son in me,

1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

1Ti 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Pharisees did not confess, repent and be baptized. They were the only ones who did not.

You are as the Pharisees.

You also believe and teach as the Pharisees, that we are not to repent before being saved.

Oh how I love the Word of God.

 

[The Biblicist]

The Pharisees did not believe in Jesus.

The Pharisees did not admit they were sinners! The Pharisees and the teachers of the law were the only ones who were not baptized with John’s baptism!

I told you that I admitted I was a sinner and that I hated my sins!

You have made the very same profession that the Pharisee made. You have told that you are not an adulterer, or unjust, etc. Don't you realize the reason that the Pharisee said that is because he believed those things were sins and he was condemning them as sins and those who did them???

You are making the very same claim and neither you or the Pharisee professed the need of Christ or that you trusted in Christ in your testimonies - zilch - nada - nothing about Christ - read your own words again and find any mention of trusting in Christ or worse yet attempt to find anything you claimed that CHRIST DID FOR YOU or anything you trusted in Christ for!!!!

ZILCH- NADA- NOTHING!


I wanted God’s Truth, not other religion’s truth.
I got forceful, I stopped doubting completely, I feared God,I humbled myself and confessed that I was a sinner and hated all my sins. I put God before all things and all people.

I started to do things Jesus said, like forgive others because God will not forgive me unless I forgive others. I got married. I tried to make myself the seed that fell along the good soil. I kept knocking until the door was answered. I would never give up or stop searching no matter what or how long it took.

Tell me, if there is nothing you can do to be the person God saves, then why are there so many who say they believe in God and Jesus and keep sinning as there has been no change? The Bible says they are deceived and liars. - Moriah

No Christ in this profession of salvatin -

 

[Moriah]

You have made the very same profession that the Pharisee made. You have told that you are not an adulterer, or unjust, etc. Don't you realize the reason that the Pharisee said that is because he believed those things were sins and he was condemning them as sins and those who did them???

You are not telling the truth. Where have I said that I was not an adulterer, or unjust?
I said I began to get Jesus’ teaching and began to obey them. I said I admitted I was a sinner, and hated my sins. I said I forgave those who sinned against me. I was asked about my testimony, and I showed how got JESUS’ TEACHINGS AND OBEYED THEM.

 

[Moriah]

You are making the very same claim and neither you or the Pharisee professed the need of Christ or that you trusted in Christ in your testimonies - zilch - nada - nothing about Christ - read your own words again and find any mention of trusting in Christ or worse yet attempt to find anything you claimed that CHRIST DID FOR YOU or anything you trusted in Christ for!!!!

ZILCH- NADA- NOTHING!

Jesus says if anyone gets his teachings and obeys them, then the Father and he will make his home with them, and reveal himself to him.


I spoke only of Jesus' teachings and obeying them.

You are as the Pharisees.

You teach do not repent before we are saved.

The Pharisees and teachers of the law are the only ones who did not get baptized for the forgiveness of sins.

The Pharisees did not repent and prepare the way for Jesus into their lives, and that is the very same thing you teach.

 

[The Biblicist]

You are not telling the truth. Where have I said that I was not an adulterer, or unjust?

Are you an adulterer and unjust?

The fact is that in your very testimony you deny those very kind of things and I quote:

Tell me, if there is nothing you can do to be the person God saves, then why are there so many who say they believe in God and Jesus and keep sinning as there has been no change? The Bible says they are deceived and liars - Moriah

Is not your claim that you are not that type of person any longer? That is precisely the claim of the Pharisee and both of you give absolutely NO CREDIT to Jesus Christ or claim that you trusted in Him for anything!

I said I began to get Jesus’ teaching and began to obey them. I said I admitted I was a sinner, and hated my sins. I said I forgave those who sinned against me. I was asked about my testimony, and I showed how got JESUS’ TEACHINGS AND OBEYED THEM.

Again, not one word about what Jesus did for you! Not one word about trusting in Christ to save you! Again not one word why you needed Christ to save you! Your testimony is all about YOU and what YOU DID and what YOU DO and is Christless!

Look at your own words! If you can do all that by yourself without Christ, then no wonder you don't claim any need for Christ or for what Christ can do for you!!!