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Weakness of the Church in America
- Thread starter Deacon
- Start date
Jack Matthews
New Member
That sounds more like Allah than the God of the New Testament that is described in John 3:16. Your post is a complete denial of I John 4:7-12.J.D. said:
I'll agree that God is not a weepy-eyed, hand wringing worry wart but the fact of the matter is that He would, and did, do everything to save sinners, when he allowed Christ to be sacrificed on the cross. That's what grace is, and it is only grace that saves us. The grace of God, which comes through faith in Christ, shields us from the consequences of sin.
It is difficult to paint "the church in America today" with a broad brush. However, I think your post shows at least one element of its weakness. There are too many people who do not understand what grace is, and too many people who do not understand who God really is. I do not have to worry about the day that I will stand before the Creator of the Universe because when I do, I will be protected by his grace, and covered by the blood of Jesus Christ.
By the very definition "Expository Preaching" is done verse by verse. And any other preaching is often inferior. Going thru verse by verse does not require wandering off from the context of the passage. Context always should lead the message and can be done verse by verse.
The epistles after the gospels should alway be preached in light of the cross, the shed blood of Christ, the resurrection, and eternity.
Our worship should always be done in a way that glorifies God. But never and I mean never done with the alterior motive of recieving something in return. This is a false and wrong motive and dishonors God.
Sin, Hell, Satan, Heaven, righteousness, Jesus, the cross, the blood, the death, the forsaking, the resurrection, depravity and all that is in scripture should be preached with passion and authority.
This new false doctrine that simply following Christ is enough false short of the truth. You must be broken, repentent, aware of your sinful state, aware of God holiness. for you cannot be saved without it. anything else is weak, inferior, and a lie that will send people staight to hell.
Every next generation thinks God is calling them to do it different and earlier generations got it wrong.
As for me and many generations both young and old the old time gospel is good enough.
The epistles after the gospels should alway be preached in light of the cross, the shed blood of Christ, the resurrection, and eternity.
Our worship should always be done in a way that glorifies God. But never and I mean never done with the alterior motive of recieving something in return. This is a false and wrong motive and dishonors God.
Sin, Hell, Satan, Heaven, righteousness, Jesus, the cross, the blood, the death, the forsaking, the resurrection, depravity and all that is in scripture should be preached with passion and authority.
This new false doctrine that simply following Christ is enough false short of the truth. You must be broken, repentent, aware of your sinful state, aware of God holiness. for you cannot be saved without it. anything else is weak, inferior, and a lie that will send people staight to hell.
Every next generation thinks God is calling them to do it different and earlier generations got it wrong.
As for me and many generations both young and old the old time gospel is good enough.
Last edited by a moderator:
In the whole bible there is more about God's wrath than about His love!
If there was no wrath, no threat of judgment, there would be no mercy, no grace, no salvation, no being saved from the wrath to come!
People mostly like to imagine a God of love, only love because they then dont have to consider the need for accountability and responsibility!
Also, seeking God is actually for the believer who needs to grow in grace and knowledge of the Lord, rather than for an unregenerate unbeliever who is incapable of 'seeking'!
If there was no wrath, no threat of judgment, there would be no mercy, no grace, no salvation, no being saved from the wrath to come!
People mostly like to imagine a God of love, only love because they then dont have to consider the need for accountability and responsibility!
Also, seeking God is actually for the believer who needs to grow in grace and knowledge of the Lord, rather than for an unregenerate unbeliever who is incapable of 'seeking'!
gb will like this one:
Focus upon discipleship that leads the believers to grow in Christ. How else can you get people to reject what the world offers? The world offers (even in the church) an easy believism and a comfortable life right here in the here and now.
Focus upon discipleship that leads the believers to grow in Christ. How else can you get people to reject what the world offers? The world offers (even in the church) an easy believism and a comfortable life right here in the here and now.
Deacon said:
J.D.,
I admittedly have trouble interacting with posts like yours because they are so broad brush.
How many churches do you have real knowledge of that you can say that most members are ungodly rebels?
Not true of my church. I have been a member of 4 churches total in 3 different geographical regions.
There are probably 150 churches in my immediate area. I have attended less than a dozen of them. And that only once or so each.
I don't think I could speak so knowledgeably of them as you seem to speak of "the average church member" in America.
Most of my life is invisible to many people in my town. I daresay most of your life is invisible to people in your church and town.
How do people in your church objectively know that you are not an ungodly rebel? I am curious.
I admittedly have trouble interacting with posts like yours because they are so broad brush.
How many churches do you have real knowledge of that you can say that most members are ungodly rebels?
Not true of my church. I have been a member of 4 churches total in 3 different geographical regions.
There are probably 150 churches in my immediate area. I have attended less than a dozen of them. And that only once or so each.
I don't think I could speak so knowledgeably of them as you seem to speak of "the average church member" in America.
Most of my life is invisible to many people in my town. I daresay most of your life is invisible to people in your church and town.
How do people in your church objectively know that you are not an ungodly rebel? I am curious.
Karen said:
Karen, how close to church leadership have you been? Pastor's wife or deacon's wife? Or have you chaired a committee? When I first got saved, I thought that church people were the most wonderful, saintly people on earth. It was when I became a leader (teacher, then asst pastor, then interem pastor, then "chairman" of deacons) that I found out what they are really like. Spoiled, demanding children. Offended at the slightest incident. Check out tatertot's thread about "impaction".
If you experience has been better, then praise the Lord for it!
Now don't take this out of context - as many troubles as I've seen in church, I would still rather go to church than to some godless party any day. The faithful remnant makes it not only bearable, but enjoyable.
The purpose of preaching is not to coddle people. A Gospel that does not repel the reprobate is a false gospel. The same message that is "a token of perdition" to the lost, is "light and life" to the saved.
I don't see the Church as having a weakness. The mission of the Church is to spread the good news of Jesus. It's Jesus who in turn perfects the saints. If there were a weakness it would have to be in Christ ability to perfect mankind.
Society is showing signs of being abundantly blessed. History has shown us that any society that is abundantly blessed no longer feels a true necessity for God or a reason to fear/respect his word. This is from the feeling they can make it without God. As long as I have my job and the stock market's good, who needs him type mentality.
We are stairing in the mirror of the society before the flood (Noah) and the place where Lot chose to live (Sodom). We as a society have accepted immorality as a way of life and no longer fear the Lord.
Society is showing signs of being abundantly blessed. History has shown us that any society that is abundantly blessed no longer feels a true necessity for God or a reason to fear/respect his word. This is from the feeling they can make it without God. As long as I have my job and the stock market's good, who needs him type mentality.
We are stairing in the mirror of the society before the flood (Noah) and the place where Lot chose to live (Sodom). We as a society have accepted immorality as a way of life and no longer fear the Lord.
Jack Matthews
New Member
2BHizown said:
Granted, there is more about God's wrath than his love, particularly in the Old Testament. But volume of discussion is not necessarily an indication that his wrath is the point that we are supposed to understand. The New Testament, beginning with Christ, who is God and therefore sheds a bit more light and clarity on the nature of God than any of the other writers, and moving through the Apostles, emphasizes the nature of God as love over any other aspect of his nature. It was God's love for man, not his wrath, that prompted his creation of a perfect salvation in Christ, and it is His grace that saves us. That's the full and complete message of the gospel. It's the correct way to interpret scripture.
It isn't possible for human beings to be accountable or responsible enough to please God. That's why we have Christ, and salvation by grace. What you're advocating is salvation by works. I didn't really understand what I had been saved from until after I became a believer. I knew I was a sinner, and I knew that was what stood in my way of a relationship with God, and I knew that I couldn't change that. It was the message that God loved me enough to make a way for my life to be changed, something that I couldn't do on my own, that brought me to salvation and has kept me accountable and responsible since then.
This is the first time I've had to review this thread, and, in varying degrees, I'd have to agree with most of the responses that have been posted.
However, I really believe that my neighbor Jack Matthews hit the nail on the head when he pointed out the lack of real, consistent expository preaching.
For about four years some 35 or so years ago I had the distinct privilege of being a member of a church wherein the pastor was quite a Greek scholar, and each week he would preach expository on three different books in each of the three weekly services.
In addition to that, the church offered a weekly evening Bible Institute where those who chose to do so could study more in depth the various core doctrines.
Yes, we also had S.S., visitation, VBS, back yard bible clubs, a radio (and eventually a TV) program, bus ministry and AWANAS. Naturally, not every member was deeply involved with each of these; in fact, we were encouraged simply to find the Lord's calling for each of us with regard to what ministry we felt His calling for each of us. (As it turned out, mine happened to be the bus ministry.)
However, as a mere three-year-old babe in Christ not coming from a "Baptist background" (neither IFB, SBC, ABC, CBS, NBC, etc.), I would have to say that those four years did much to help ground me as a child of God.
Now, some 35 years later, I'm thankful that the church of which I'm now a member has also chosen to follow that expository route (actually we've been at it for about 2-3 years now). For most of the first part of this year we've gone through I Thessalonians. On this coming Sunday, Aug. 6, 2006) we'll be starting a nine-week study of II Thessalonians.
Yes, there will be a break about three fourths of the way in for our annual Missions Conference, just as there were breaks in the I Thessalonian study for Easter, Anniversary Sunday, and our annual Rite of Passage ceremony for our young people, but, by and large, we've stayed on the expository focus.
These studies are fortified with bound study guides that we can keep for future reference.
Hard work? Yes! Lots of pre-planning? Yes! Lot's of study involved by both staff and congregation? Yes!
Long-term biblically-based and God-honoring fruit being produced by those in the congregation who want to take their claim as a Christian seriously? Yes! Yes! Yes!
(If you wish to get an idea of how we do this, I'd invite you to visit my church's website that's listed in my Public Profile, click on the link "New Audio Resources," and there you'll find a play or download option for most of the second & third quarter Sunday morning messages for 2006.)
However, I really believe that my neighbor Jack Matthews hit the nail on the head when he pointed out the lack of real, consistent expository preaching.
For about four years some 35 or so years ago I had the distinct privilege of being a member of a church wherein the pastor was quite a Greek scholar, and each week he would preach expository on three different books in each of the three weekly services.
In addition to that, the church offered a weekly evening Bible Institute where those who chose to do so could study more in depth the various core doctrines.
Yes, we also had S.S., visitation, VBS, back yard bible clubs, a radio (and eventually a TV) program, bus ministry and AWANAS. Naturally, not every member was deeply involved with each of these; in fact, we were encouraged simply to find the Lord's calling for each of us with regard to what ministry we felt His calling for each of us. (As it turned out, mine happened to be the bus ministry.)
However, as a mere three-year-old babe in Christ not coming from a "Baptist background" (neither IFB, SBC, ABC, CBS, NBC, etc.), I would have to say that those four years did much to help ground me as a child of God.
Now, some 35 years later, I'm thankful that the church of which I'm now a member has also chosen to follow that expository route (actually we've been at it for about 2-3 years now). For most of the first part of this year we've gone through I Thessalonians. On this coming Sunday, Aug. 6, 2006) we'll be starting a nine-week study of II Thessalonians.
Yes, there will be a break about three fourths of the way in for our annual Missions Conference, just as there were breaks in the I Thessalonian study for Easter, Anniversary Sunday, and our annual Rite of Passage ceremony for our young people, but, by and large, we've stayed on the expository focus.
These studies are fortified with bound study guides that we can keep for future reference.
Hard work? Yes! Lots of pre-planning? Yes! Lot's of study involved by both staff and congregation? Yes!
Long-term biblically-based and God-honoring fruit being produced by those in the congregation who want to take their claim as a Christian seriously? Yes! Yes! Yes!
(If you wish to get an idea of how we do this, I'd invite you to visit my church's website that's listed in my Public Profile, click on the link "New Audio Resources," and there you'll find a play or download option for most of the second & third quarter Sunday morning messages for 2006.)
Jack Matthews
What is it that man was going to be saved from? Was it not the wrath to come?
Without the backdrop of God's wrath, His total absence of tolerance of sin, there could be no mercy, no forgiveness, no grace!
Realizing the extent of ones sin and need of a Savior is the very thing that brings one to an awareness of the extent of God's great love. The fact that He rescued me by regenerating my heart and causing me to see this, that He gifted me with repentance and faith and caused me to thirst for Him is so very humbling it brings one to their knees! Today many people see God only as love with little knowledge of Him being high, holy and lifted up as Isaiah reports in both ch 6 and 66. Many seem to think once they are 'saved' by God's love they are at rest and faith to continue their search for knowledge of Him! Thats the point the search begins, when we are regenerate and have our eyes opened and can truly come to see Him in His fullness and ourselves in our sinfulness!
What is it that man was going to be saved from? Was it not the wrath to come?
Without the backdrop of God's wrath, His total absence of tolerance of sin, there could be no mercy, no forgiveness, no grace!
Realizing the extent of ones sin and need of a Savior is the very thing that brings one to an awareness of the extent of God's great love. The fact that He rescued me by regenerating my heart and causing me to see this, that He gifted me with repentance and faith and caused me to thirst for Him is so very humbling it brings one to their knees! Today many people see God only as love with little knowledge of Him being high, holy and lifted up as Isaiah reports in both ch 6 and 66. Many seem to think once they are 'saved' by God's love they are at rest and faith to continue their search for knowledge of Him! Thats the point the search begins, when we are regenerate and have our eyes opened and can truly come to see Him in His fullness and ourselves in our sinfulness!
It would be in the best interest of all ministers and others also to read J.I. Packers introduction to The Death of Death in the Death of Christ by John Owen. It is very compelling and clearly shows what has occured in the churches of today who 'claim' to be preaching the gospel!
http://www.covenant-urc.org/literatr/jpiedddc-1.html
http://www.covenant-urc.org/literatr/jpiedddc-1.html
2BHizown said:
Himself, Man is clearly his own worse enemy. This is why I love the 7th chpt of Romans, to see Paul stuggle with his innerself is intreaging to me.
2BHizown = I can't speak for all Churches. I only serve at one.
I do believe all Churches have good intensions. Unfortunately, judging by your responce, I guess Hell will have a well paved 8 lane road.