Were God's children ever in danger of being thrown into the lake of fire at any point of time ?

[SavedByGrace]

This is not the Reformed teaching.

If God has elected the elect before the foundation of the world, it is for what? Their salvation is guaranteed even before they repent and believe! This is absurd and against the Bible

 

[Aaron]

If God has elected the elect before the foundation of the world, it is for what? Their salvation is guaranteed even before they repent and believe! This is absurd and against the Bible

That is carnal thinking, but you can't escape the difficulty citing the foreknowledge of God with the notion that men do their own choosing.

Is it possible that one that God knows will choose the right will do otherwise? Can we really say that one was ever in real danger?

 

[timdabap]

The never ending drumbeat of false claims bangs on like a clanging gong.

Wow !!

We were once children of wrath. Once we were not a people. Once we had not obtained mercy.

All that pertaining to this time world.
But in as far as eternity was concerned the elect sinners, MULTITUDES of them, innumerable TO MAN (but not to God) have always been the object of His mercy. To Him they were always His saints, His people, His sheep, never referred to as goats by their Creator.

The claim individuals were chosen in the election of Ephesians 1:4 is bogus.

Take that up with the Holy Spirit by whom Paul wrote those words.

If individuals had been chosen, then we would always have been a people,

They always have been God's people, the elect. Never headed for hell, spared from the lake of fire even before they knew what sin was.

we would have obtained mercy before being born,

Exactly on the button, that. Mercy was given before birth, see the story of Jacob and Esau in Romans.

and we would have never been children of wrath.

that is why the elect is God's masterpiece, children of wrath He Himself worked on and changed, in Paul's words "His workmanship" . First God sent the Spirit of His Son to live in us, washing us in regeneration, then he added a new nature to us to challenge the old flesh, then God formed churches, giving the church first apostles, then prophets,evangelists, teachers to bring His Saints to maturity.

But the beat goes on and on...

and you're out of step with the Holy Spirit's beat.

I daresay, you have no idea, at all, about grace.

 

[SavedByGrace]

That is carnal thinking, but you can't escape the difficulty citing the foreknowledge of God with the notion that men do their own choosing.

Is it possible that one that God knows will choose the right will do otherwise? Can we really say that one was ever in real danger?

God's Foreknowledge is not the same as Predestination. God knows who will come to faith in Jesus Christ, but He does not predetermine their free choice.

 

[Aaron]

Reformed teaching is that God regenerates the elects heart before they are born again, so that they can call on the Lord for salvation. This is complete nonsense

You had stated that the teaching was we enter the world saved, and that is false.

What you're saying in the quote is often expressed by adherents to the Doctrines of Grace, but regeneration and salvation are not separate things.

I don't like the word regeneration anyway. It doesn't convey the full concept, I feel. Because we are more than regenerated. We aren't merely restored to the life and innocence of Adam and Eve. We are born of God, and are made partakers of the divine nature. Adam was not born of God. He was not a partaker of the divine nature.

Part of that divine nature is eternal life, the gift God. Eternal means more than never ending. It also means without beginning. And there are glimpses of this life that was given revealed in the Scriptures. One is often cited: Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Our calling was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began 2 Timothy 1:9. We are raised up and sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, Ephesians 2:6.

But were we ever in danger? In this world, as children of hell in bondage to the Devil by the fear of death, yes.

 

[Aaron]

God's Foreknowledge is not the same as Predestination. God knows who will come to faith in Jesus Christ, but He does not predetermine their free choice.

Okay, but answer my question: is it possible that one whom God knows will come to faith will not come to faith?

 

[SavedByGrace]

Okay, but answer my question: is it possible that one whom God knows will come to faith will not come to faith?

God knows all things. This doesn't mean that He has predetermined all things

 

[SavedByGrace]

You had stated that the teaching was we enter the world saved, and that is false.

What you're saying in the quote is often expressed by adherents to the Doctrines of Grace, but regeneration and salvation are not separate things.

I don't like the word regeneration anyway. It doesn't convey the full concept, I feel. Because we are more than regenerated. We aren't merely restored to the life and innocence of Adam and Eve. We are born of God, and are made partakers of the divine nature. Adam was not born of God. He was not a partaker of the divine nature.

Part of that divine nature is eternal life, the gift God. Eternal means more than never ending. It also means without beginning. And there are glimpses of this life that was given revealed in the Scriptures. One is often cited: Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Our calling was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began 2 Timothy 1:9. We are raised up and sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, Ephesians 2:6.

But were we ever in danger? In this world, as children of hell in bondage to the Devil by the fear of death, yes.

If the elect is elected by God for their salvation before the foundation of the world, then it is as good as they being saved before the foundation of the world, because these will be saved!

 

[Aaron]

God knows all things. This doesn't mean that He has predetermined all things

That means no. It is not possible that one whom God knows will come to faith will do any other thing. So it is as good as saying they were saved before the foundation of the world.

The only thing we're arguing about is the identity of the savior: that one himself, or God.

 

[timdabap]

I asked because of what you said in #8

oh, okay...used the wrong word, I guess. let me restate it: but what if THAT/THE elect were SDA....sorry, not born and raised in the English language....

 

[SavedByGrace]

That means no. It is not possible that one whom God knows will come to faith will do any other thing. So it is as good as saying they were saved before the foundation of the world.

The only thing we're arguing about is the identity of the savior: that one himself, or God.

God KNOWS those who will repent and believe from eternity past. this is not the issue here. God did not predetermine their salvation, based on some decree, but foresaw those who will be saved. Humans are IN TIME, so they cannot have been saved before the foundation of the world!

 

[SavedByGrace]

oh, okay...used the wrong word, I guess. let me restate it: but what if THAT/THE elect were SDA....sorry, not born and raised in the English language....

depends how you understand "elect"? the Bible way, or the so called "reformed" way, which is NOT what the Bible Teaches.

 

[Dave G]

If God has elected the elect before the foundation of the world, it is for what?

" Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." ( Ephesians 1:3-6 ).

 

[Dave G]

If the elect is elected by God for their salvation before the foundation of the world, then it is as good as they being saved before the foundation of the world, because these will be saved!

Precisely, my friend.
Please see John 17:2, for example.

 

[Dave G]

ALL sinners, before they are actually born-again, by repenting and faith

Please see John 1:11-13 and James 1:18.
Our will has nothing to do with God bestowing the new birth on a person.

Nothing we do can ever purchase or guarantee the favor of God, for that would be works.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Precisely, my friend.
Please see John 17:2, for example.

to which I reply, Matthew 11:27

ALL THINGS have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him

This is the entire world, including the human race! To ALL Jesus says:

Come to Me, ALL you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

Clearly salvation is for the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE!

 

[SavedByGrace]

Please see John 1:11-13 and James 1:18.
Our will has nothing to do with God bestowing the new birth on a person.

Nothing we do can ever purchase or guarantee the favor of God, for that would be works.

it is by our will, that we repent and believe, unless God does the repenting and believing for the elect?

 

[Dave G]

ALL THINGS have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him

This is the entire world, including the human race!

Look at it again, SBG.
He says that no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son, and whomsoever the Son will reveal the Father to....

This is not the entire human race.

 

[Dave G]

it is by our will, that we repent and believe, unless God does the repenting and believing for the elect?

No, SBG.
God does not do the repenting and believing for us...

But He does make us born again by His own will...not ours.

 

[SavedByGrace]

for that would be works

repenting and believing are not WORKS, as in "merit", but the obeying of the Just Demands of God.

Jonah 3:10 says in the KJV, "when God saw their WORKS". can you see that? but it goes on to say what this is:

"that they turned from their evil way", that is, REPENTED of their sins!