Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?

[InTheLight]

The believers in Acts 19:1-6 believed in the coming Messiah, had even been baptized by John the Baptist, yet they had not received the Holy Spirit.

 

[Revmitchell]

The believers in Acts 19:1-6 believed in the coming Messiah, had even been baptized by John the Baptist, yet they had not received the Holy Spirit.

So what is your understanding of that verse?

 

[JamesL]

The New Birth had to be in operation in that day because the Lord would not demand that men 'must be born again' to see and enter into the Kingdom of God.

Depends on what it means to enter the Kingdom of God, and what it means to see it.

Most believe we enter the Kingdom of God sometime during this life - typically at conversion.

Matt 5:20
For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven

Mark 10:15
Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all

Sounds ok so far. Child-like faith and such. However.....

Matt 7:21
Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

And Jesus said, "On THAT day..." (v 22)
Future, yet to come. On that day we will enter.


Look what Paul said after being stoned at Antioch - “Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.” (Acts 14:22)

Are we to believe we must endure many tribulations before we are deemed worthy of being converted? No. Entering the Kingdom will be on THAT day.

2Pet 1:10-11
10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;

11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ WILL BE abundantly supplied to you.

And that was written to believers


What about seeing the Kingdom?

Mark 9:1
[ The Transfiguration ] And Jesus was saying to them, “Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power.”


After it had come with power.


Jesus said to Nicodemus that He would not be able to see the Kingdom AFTER it had come with power, nor enter it on THAT day, unless he was born again.

And he was not born again until the perfect blood was shed


.

 

[Darrell C]

The believers in Acts 19:1-6 believed in the coming Messiah, had even been baptized by John the Baptist, yet they had not received the Holy Spirit.

Salvation in Christ is never accomplished through believing in the Coming of Messiah, but in specific belief that He has come in the flesh:


1 John 4:1-3

King James Version (KJV)

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


Israel did believe the promise of God, but we see that "He came unto His Own and His Own received Him not."

Israel, on a national basis...is still awaiting the Messiah promised them.

The Baptism of John is contrasted with the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, and holds no significance in regards to Eternal Redemption:


Matthew 3:11-12

King James Version (KJV)

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


Acts 1

King James Version (KJV)

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


Acts 19

King James Version (KJV)

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.


Three times we see that John's Baptism does not preclude the need of being Baptized with the Holy Spirit.

And a couple points to consider concerning water baptism:

Christ is the Baptizer, not men.

Not one of the disciples are ever said to be baptized in water after Pentecost (meaning the 120). And while non-mention is a poor basis for view, it would seem that if water baptism were salvific or associated so closely with the Baptism with the Holy Spirit...we would have a record.

The only mention of Baptism in Romans is debated as to which Baptism it is (water of Spirit, which, when we see water baptism dismissed in light of the Baptism with the Holy Ghost as we see above, makes it likely that Baptism with the Spirit is in view).

But as you point out, it was the Baptism with the Holy Spirit they lacked. They had not even heard whether there be a Holy Ghost, and if we think about that, we would not give this a meaning that they had never heard of the Holy Spirit, but they had not been taught about the Holy Spirit which made John's baptism obsolete.

All good points of discussion, though, thanks for the contribution.


God bless.

 

[percho]

"Regeneration" in the New Testament simply means "born again," and while we usually have someone make the statement "'Born Again' in John 3 simply means born from above," and that is true, it also remains true that when one is born again it is a given that they are born from above, or, as we see in many places, Born of God:




Titus 3:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

We are saved by...

...the washing of regeneration, which speaks of the promised cleansing which takes place when one is made a "new creature," which itself effected by...

...the renewing of the Holy Ghost, which is the "reunion" of God with man. Rather than the Holy Ghost renewing us, which is already pointed out in the washing of regeneration.





Scripture does not teach a partial "new birth." While men effect "partial births," and we can see the abomination that is, God does not recreate men partially, but completely.

We are made new creatures, and what is taking place is a spiritual resurrection, which as Christ taught, is like the wind: we can see the effect, but not what effects that affect.

What is one washed of, when born again, thereby saving him?

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Romans 8:11

Is that the same, Spirit of Adoption of verse 15 whereby one can call God, Father? The same Spirit one has the first fruit thereof which brings forth, the adoption, the redemption of the body of verse 23? Is the quickening of the mortal body the same as the redemption of the body? Is that the hope of verses 24,25 of which one does not yet see?

Could from the receiving of the Spirit unto the redemption of the body be construed as the time spent in the womb?

 

[percho]

Who is and was, the firstborn from the dead Col. 1:18, ascended to the right hand of the Father and received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, Acts 2:32,33 that then could shed, poured out, on us John 16:7?

 

[InTheLight]

So what is your understanding of that verse?

I'm not sure. According to this:

Eph. 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

and this:

Gal 4:6 Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.”

...these people in Acts 19 were not regenerated. So neither were people in the OT that had not received the Holy Spirit. That's how it appears to me.

I'm wide open for teaching on this subject.

 

[Revmitchell]

I'm not sure. According to this:

Eph. 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

and this:

Gal 4:6 Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.”

...these people in Acts 19 were not regenerated. So neither were people in the OT that had not received the Holy Spirit. That's how it appears to me.

I'm wide open for teaching on this subject.

The church is indwelt with the HG. OT saints were not. The HG works internally through the church. In OT the HG worked externally.

 

[Darrell C]

Depends on what it means to enter the Kingdom of God, and what it means to see it.

And that is the cornerstone of the issue...which Kingdom is in view.

Consider Nicodemus, a Jew who we assume had expectation of Christ.

But, what would Nicodemus' expectation looked like?

I would suggest that Nicodemus' expectation was the same as all of Israel's expectation, who looked for an earthly reign of Christ. Understanding of salvation from the penalty of sin was unknown to them at this point, so we consider the conversation with that promised Kingdom they were aware of in view:


John 3

King James Version (KJV)

1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?


Notice Nicodemus responds with the physical in view. Some commentators suggest that he means basically, "Can a man start all over again?" But I think it more fitting to understand this as indicative of a carnal (material) mindset, just as we see in the disciples in Acts 1, "Lord, wilt thou at this time restore the Kingdom unto Israel?"

Now we consider our advantage of hindsight and the revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ: we can understand that the Kingdom of God extends into the future and consists of a spiritual rule and reign in the hearts of the believer, and culmination in the Eternal State as glorified believers, but...

...not Nicodemus. Not even Peter. Not John the Baptist.

So I would suggest that the Kingdom Nicodemus would have had in view would have been that Restored Kingdom promised by God to Israel. We impose our own advantage of having an understanding of new revelation which Nicodemus did not have, and understand why he would refer to physical birth, rather than being born of God, or, born from above (equivalents).

The Lord points out Nicodemus' physical understanding...


5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


The Lord contrasts Nicodemus' understanding with that which is what He really refers to, which is being born of God.

We next see...


7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?


Now here is where the argument gains a little strength. The Lord is asking Nicodemus how it is he does not understand what He is speaking of, which implies Nicodemus should understand to the capacity you and I do (having the benefit of the revelation of the Gospel by reason of ourselves being born again).

Not a difficulty that closes the case, as while the Lord is not prematurely revealing mysteries not revealed until the Spirit comes and reveals those truths on a spiritual level to believers, it remains true that a Master of Israel should have immediately thought of the promises of God, and instead of interpreting Christ's teaching here to the most basic understanding, that is, physical birth...

...he should have immediately considered the promises of God in regards to Israel's need for cleansing, her heart, her spirit, and the promise of God to put His Spirit within men.

So we have two perspectives offered, Nicodemus' which is clearly defined as carnal, and the Lord's, which is spiritual.

Now if it were possible for Nicodemus to be born again, and that this was possible for men in that day...why is this the only mention of it in His entire ministry.

Spoken to one man that we know of, and not reiterated to the public.

The reason is that this truth would not be made known to men, including the disciples of Christ...until revealed by the Holy Ghost from sent down from Heaven, the Comforter.

And I will separate that portion because as I said, it's a good argument, and worth discussing.


Continued...

 

[InTheLight]

The church is indwelt with the HG. OT saints were not. The HG works internally through the church. In OT the HG worked externally.

OK, so were the people in Acts 19 regenerated before they received the Holy Spirit via the laying on of hands by Paul? Or were they regenerated when they received the Holy Spirit?

 

[Darrell C]

Most believe we enter the Kingdom of God sometime during this life - typically at conversion.

Matt 5:20
For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven

Mark 10:15
Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all

Sounds ok so far. Child-like faith and such. However.....

Here is a question I would pose in view of the first verse: what righteousness do we know exceeds the righteousness of the Pharisees which cannot be called something we do to be saved?

Is Christ suggesting there is something we can do to enter the Kingdom of Heaven which is a result of our righteousness?

In a context of the New Birth I think we can answer that definitively:


Titus 3:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Matt 7:21
Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

And Jesus said, "On THAT day..." (v 22)
Future, yet to come. On that day we will enter.

And we could ask what is the will of the Father that can be obeyed by which entrance to the Kingdom of Heaven is obtained?

We can place this into a couple of contexts that are equally true: first, there is the Kingdom which is the spiritual rule and reign of God in the hearts of believers (present even in that day, as evidenced by Pharisees preventing some from entering, for example); there is the Kingdom which we see in Matthew 25, as well as in many prophecies; There is the literal Kingdom which is not of this earth, but God's realm, Heaven itself (which according to Hebrews was not entered by men prior to Christ's death).

But I agree with your point, and you make a good observation.

Look what Paul said after being stoned at Antioch - “Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.” (Acts 14:22)

Are we to believe we must endure many tribulations before we are deemed worthy of being converted? No. Entering the Kingdom will be on THAT day.

Agreed.

Paul's point is for the purpose of encouragement and endurance despite tribulation in this world. "It's not a bed of roses, so don't be surprised to go through trials."

2Pet 1:10-11
10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;

11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ WILL BE abundantly supplied to you.

And that was written to believers

Though we still recognize Paul's warning...make sure you are actually saved.

Those who do not seek to affirm their salvation show it is not an important issue in their lives, which calls into question as to whether their relationship goes beyond a nominal acquaintance or affiliation with Christ. The same warning can be seen several times in Hebrews.

Paul says the same thing here:


2 Corinthians 13:4-6

King James Version (KJV)

4 For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.

5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.


The kingdom in view would be the Eternal Kingdom as contrasted with the first two mentioned before, for we are already in that Kingdom through salvation, and the Millennial Kingdom is yet to come, and those who enter into that Kingdom will do so physically.

What about seeing the Kingdom?

Mark 9:1
[ The Transfiguration ] And Jesus was saying to them, “Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power.”

After it had come with power.

Most see this fulfilled on the mount of transfiguration.

Jesus said to Nicodemus that He would not be able to see the Kingdom AFTER it had come with power, nor enter it on THAT day, unless he was born again.

And he was not born again until the perfect blood was shed

While I view the Kingdom Nicodemus had in mind (Restored Israel) and the one the Lord referred to (which would have encompassed this issue as a whole, meaning no Kingdom of God would be entered apart from new birth) as two different Kingdoms, I do agree that the new birth was not something Nicodemus could have effected in His life at that time.

As in the example of "He breathed on them and said receive ye the Spirit" which does not negate that the Spirit would not be given until after He returned to Heaven, we see that the command maintains a valid and important truth, as you point out: no man who is not born again will enter into the spiritual rule and reign of God in their lives, the Millennial Kingdom, or the Eternal Kingdom in the Eternal State.

We see an example that here as well...


John 7:38-40

King James Version (KJV)

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


Throughout Christ's ministry He demanded that men believe upon His name, and warned severe consequences for those that did not. The Record of Scripture testifies to one truth that is often overlooked: not one man can be found to believe on the Name of Jesus Christ prior to His death or Pentecost.

A mentioned before, all men forsook Him, as Prophecy said they would:


John 16:31-32

King James Version (KJV)

31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.


Matthew 26:31

King James Version (KJV)

31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.


Zechariah 13:7

King James Version (KJV)

7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.




So until we see where any believed according to that which is required, that is, trusting in Christ that He died in our stead, we will not find someone born again. The New Birth bestows upon those born again something they did not have, that is...eternal life.

And eternal life is not a substance poured into a believer, but a Person who indwells. We share in that eternal life by reason of His indwelling, which requires Atonement be imparted on our behalf, for the issue of the penalty of sin is the first thing God deals with when saving us.


God bless.

 

[Revmitchell]

OK, so were the people in Acts 19 regenerated before they received the Holy Spirit via the laying on of hands by Paul? Or were they regenerated when they received the Holy Spirit?

The phrase "come upon them" is different than indwelling. The indwelling is the constant witness with our spirit. The coming upon is the moving of the HG for special supernatural purposes such as tongues and prophesy. Some people misunderstand the question by Paul in v.2. He did not mean that when we get saved we will always speak in tongues and prophesy.

 

[Darrell C]

Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
"Regeneration" in the New Testament simply means "born again," and while we usually have someone make the statement "'Born Again' in John 3 simply means born from above," and that is true, it also remains true that when one is born again it is a given that they are born from above, or, as we see in many places, Born of God:




Titus 3:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

We are saved by...

...the washing of regeneration, which speaks of the promised cleansing which takes place when one is made a "new creature," which itself effected by...

...the renewing of the Holy Ghost, which is the "reunion" of God with man. Rather than the Holy Ghost renewing us, which is already pointed out in the washing of regeneration.





Scripture does not teach a partial "new birth." While men effect "partial births," and we can see the abomination that is, God does not recreate men partially, but completely.

We are made new creatures, and what is taking place is a spiritual resurrection, which as Christ taught, is like the wind: we can see the effect, but not what effects that affect.

What is one washed of, when born again, thereby saving him?

As seen in the Old Testament example the Law set forth, cleansing is usually in relation to sin.

The "cleansing," or, "washing," or, "Baptism" of John was a washing intended to represent the washing that had occurred internally, but did not effect that cleansing. For this reason he refused to baptize the Pharisees (Matthew 3) and other Jews (Mark 1) because their lives did not evidence true repentance (hence the question, "Who hath warned you to flee the wrath to come...you certainly didn't come to this realization yourself!").

We see this in many Prophecies in the Old Testament. For example...


Isaiah 1:18

King James Version (KJV)

18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.



Now what Nicodemus should have immediately thought of when the Lord said "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit" was...

Ezekiel 36:22-27

King James Version (KJV)

22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

The water here, as well as in John, is not physical water which "puts away the filth of the flesh," as Peter makes clear, but is the same water we see used for cleansing here:


Ephesians 5:25-26

King James Version (KJV)

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,


The disciples were commanded to abide in Him, which was a command expected only after being born again, when they had received the Comforter. But we see a cleansing that took place prior to that...


John 15

King James Version (KJV)

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.


Now while we see cleansing, and it is certainly the Word of God (Himself) in view, we do not ascribe new birth as having occurred. They were not new creatures trusting in the death of Christ, but natural men who would in just a few hours abandon the Lord in order to save their physical lives.

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Romans 8:11

Is that the same, Spirit of Adoption of verse 15 whereby one can call God, Father? The same Spirit one has the first fruit thereof which brings forth, the adoption, the redemption of the body of verse 23? Is the quickening of the mortal body the same as the redemption of the body? Is that the hope of verses 24,25 of which one does not yet see?

Yes, it is he same Spirit, the Spirit of God, Who effects all of these.

The general thrust in regards to the redemption of our bodies is to point out that the entire world lies under the curse, and even the world yearns, as we do, to be redeemed from the corruption in inherent in physical/mortal flesh.

That redemption will in part be fulfilled in the Millennial Kingdom when God "renovates," if you will, this present creation (men live longer in physical bodies, enmity between man and animal and animal and animal removed). But as prophecy can be seen to have multiple fulfillment with a final fulfillment ultimately in view, even so the redemption of this Creation will be the creation of a New heavens and Earth.

Could from the receiving of the Spirit unto the redemption of the body be construed as the time spent in the womb?

Not in my view, because the Lord makes it clear that Nicodemus is in error to ask how one can re-enter his mother's womb.


What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The birth from above is that effected by God and is a spiritual event, in fact a spiritual resurrection of men who, though having physical life, are dead.


John 6:49-51

King James Version (KJV)

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.


God bless.

 

[wpe3bql]

That comes up every time, and is a legitimate point to be addressed.

The question asked is does this...


John 20:22

King James Version (KJV)

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:


...speak of Christ giving them the Holy Ghost at this time, which would indicate the indwelling of the Comforter before Pentecost?

The answer is it couldn't possibly be stating that, as would bring conflict to one singular truth: Christ was still present with them and the Comforter could not come until He returned to Heaven. Then would the Comforter be sent, and not a minute before:


John 16:7

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.


Secondly, and more conclusively, we see that realized in Scripture as a truth that is without controversy here...


Acts 1

King James Version (KJV)


4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


We know the Lord returns to Heaven just after making this statement, and He states it will be "not many days hence."

That precludes fulfillment of the sending of the Comforter at the time of John 20:22.

So what do we make of it? It isn't that difficult, really, it is simply viewed in the prophetic, as many of Christ's teachings and statement are.

For example...


John 15

King James Version (KJV)

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.


Many who read this see this (abiding in Christ) as something the disciples could accomplish at the time of the teaching.

We know that is not the case because the disciples, to the man...would abandon Christ in just a few short hours, Peter cursing and denying he even knew Christ.

Kind of hard to impose an "abiding" on the disciples in fulfillment of a command that looks to the future, as most of John 14-16 does. If we understand that in the same context we understand the teaching of the coming of the Comforter, we do not erroneously impose fulfillment in that day.

And the Lord knew that in that day they would not abode:


John 16:31-32

King James Version (KJV)

31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.




That is correct, but the "contradiction" is cleared rather easily if we maintain the proper context.

And that is not the only point of division in the Body of Christ concerning Scripture which is cleared up. Take the Free Will controversy that has resulted in not only division in the Body, but hatred and murder. This too is easily cleared up if we apply Christ's teaching in it's proper context:


John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


We see that when He is come He will convict unbelievers. Simple as that.

And that is in accordance with how all men have been ministered to by God throughout the various Ages. We see that here:


Acts 7:51

King James Version (KJV)

51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.


God has always ministered in the hearts of men by His Spirit, and the distinction we see in the various Ages is the revelation provided to men in those various Ages. In this Age it is the Gospel. And when we couple this with the fact that the Gospel of Christ was a Mystery, a previously unrevealed truth, we can see that there is a difference in God's Ministry in regards to man's Redemption.




We already know the answer to that...not at all. The Comforter could not come, and we see He did not come, until "not many days" after the Lord's Ascension.

The controversy and seeming contradiction is cleared up in maintain Christ's teaching as He gave it to His disciples.

And I would just throw this in, which has relevance to a Trinitarian belief (of which I affirm adamantly): when we are indwelt by God we are indwelt by the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

We already know that the Spirit is said to be the One Christ and the Father would send, but have you considered...


John 14:23

King James Version (KJV)

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


The Son once again testifies of the unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.


God bless.

Bro. Darrel, et.al. ---

I think our last couple posts on the activities of the HS are to some extent starting to stray from the intended subject of the OP. With this thought in mind, I think it best to open up a new thread rather than to continue hijacking this thread.

I'll try to do this as soon as I can get the time to do this because Saturdays are usually very busy days for me.
---WPE3BQL

 

[JamesL]

The water here, as well as in John, is not physical water which "puts away the filth of the flesh," as Peter makes clear, but is the same water we see used for cleansing here:


Ephesians 5:25-26

King James Version (KJV)

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

I was an inch away from bringing up the same point. What does the washing in Titus 3:5 look like?

Don't forget about verse 27.....

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,

26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,

27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.


The washing of regeneration is a cleansing

Heb 9:13-14

13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh,

14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


.

 

[Darrell C]

Who is and was, the firstborn from the dead Col. 1:18, ascended to the right hand of the Father

That is Christ.

He is also called...


1 Corinthians 15:23

King James Version (KJV)

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


He is the First to be raised from the dead in glorified form. While others were raised physically, they would die again physically.

The New Birth is a spiritual resurrection which remedies the death all mankind fell into through Adam's sin...


John 6:53

King James Version (KJV)

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


...but, the day is coming when we shall be made like unto Him, and that is made clear by Paul as occurring when the Church is Raptured:


1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

King James Version (KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


1 Corinthians 15:50-53

King James Version (KJV)

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.



"Sleep" is a euphemism for death, as made clear by Christ in regards to Lazarus, and we see that the Church as a whole, both living and dead, will be "changed." His point is that not al will die, and those among us who remain alive are at the same event changed.

While resurrection was not a mystery, the Rapture was.

This is the resurrection in which, as we saw in a previous passage, delivers us from the mortal/physical, which even the Creation groans/yearns for.

and received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, Acts 2:32,33

Acts 2:32-33

King James Version (KJV)

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

If you read in John 14 in regards to the Spirit being sent (in the unique ministry of Comforter), you will see that both the Father and Son are said to send the Spirit. Christ "receiving the Promise of the Holy Ghost" is not, therefore, and in my view (it's debatable), not Christ Himself being indwelt (though that could be said and be true if our context is proper) but that the Father has delivered into His hands the administration of the New Covenant, so to speak.

In other words, Christ is He Who God ministers through, so God is Himself ministering those aspects of salvation under New Covenant conditions through the Son. Consider this in light of the fact that it is Christ Who is said to be the Baptizer...


Mark 1:8

King James Version (KJV)

8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.


...but at the same time the eternal indwelling of God includes the indwelling of the Trinity:


John 14:23

King James Version (KJV)

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


So in view would be, in my view, that is, that this testifies and signifies a change of ministry at a particular time. Meaning in this time what was promised has been accomplished, and Christ is at this time ministering salvation, which includes Baptizing people into Himself.

that then could shed, poured out, on us John 16:7?

Precisely.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Bro. Darrel, et.al. ---

I think our last couple posts on the activities of the HS are to some extent starting to stray from the intended subject of the OP. With this thought in mind, I think it best to open up a new thread rather than to continue hijacking this thread.

I'll try to do this as soon as I can get the time to do this because Saturdays are usually very busy days for me.
---WPE3BQL

I actually see these issues as essential to an understanding of the New Birth and when that began.

It is important to see the difference between the Spirit's ministry among men under Old Testament Economies as opposed to what can only be seen to being after Christ's return to Heaven.

And that is why this issue seldom get an examination as it ought to, because of the multiple teachings which contribute to what I feel would be a balanced Scriptural view.

It takes quite a bit of work and examination of many passages and teachings, and some of the issues may seem irrelevant, but turn out to be very important in the framework of our understanding of the New Covenant and all it bestows upon believers.

And you guys have been great. This is probably the best discussion that has resulted from this thread which has been on quite a few different forums.

Thanks again to all for the participation.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
The water here, as well as in John, is not physical water which "puts away the filth of the flesh," as Peter makes clear, but is the same water we see used for cleansing here:


Ephesians 5:25-26

King James Version (KJV)

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

I was an inch away from bringing up the same point.

You have made some great contributions to the discussion, James, please keep up the good work. This is how we edify one another.

What does the washing in Titus 3:5 look like?

It cannot be seen...


John 3:8

King James Version (KJV)

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Don't forget about verse 27.....

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,

26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,

27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.

...everyone's a critic...

Just kidding, lol.

But you are right, we see the result of the washing of water with the Word.

Here is another verse to consider in that train of thought:


1 Corinthians 6:11

King James Version (KJV)

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

The washing of regeneration is a cleansing

Heb 9:13-14

13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh,

14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Excellent.

And another issue to consider which the Writer brings up is again the contrast between the atonement provided to those under Law (as well as those Ages prior to the Covenant of Law, as sacrifice for sin begins in the Garden, and seen in the offering of Abel, Noah, Job, and Abraham) and that it was incomplete in regards to remission of sins, and the completion accomplished by Christ, which you earlier pointed out in Hebrews 10:14.

Which, by the way, is at the least one of the very clearest statements in all of Scripture which testifies to the Security of the Believer.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Have to get going but just wanted to thank everyone who has participated. Great discussion so far.


God bless.

 

[JamesL]

Bro. Darrel, et.al. ---

I think our last couple posts on the activities of the HS are to some extent starting to stray from the intended subject of the OP....
---WPE3BQL

I agree. I believe it is essential to first nail down what it means to be born again. What takes place?

Is it a mystical, ambiguous event? As in Protestant thought, simply a change in disposition?

God takes a sinner, washes him, cleanses him, heals him, gives him a new heart and new spirit, makes him holy and blameless, recreates him to be on the righteousness of God.....yet he's still the same old guy? Just has a new frame of thinking?


Or is there a real, literal change?

And the issue of indwelling is altogether different. The OT tabernacle had to be cleansed before the glory of God was manifest, and our inner man must be cleansed first, before we are indwelt.

We are the temple of God.