Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?

[Darrell C]

I agree. I believe it is essential to first nail down what it means to be born again. What takes place?

Is it a mystical, ambiguous event? As in Protestant thought, simply a change in disposition?

God takes a sinner, washes him, cleanses him, heals him, gives him a new heart and new spirit, makes him holy and blameless, recreates him to be on the righteousness of God.....yet he's still the same old guy? Just has a new frame of thinking?


Or is there a real, literal change?

And the issue of indwelling is altogether different. The OT tabernacle had to be cleansed before the glory of God was manifest, and our inner man must be cleansed first, before we are indwelt.

We are the temple of God.

Again, I would suggest that the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is critical to understanding what the New Birth is.

We are made new through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, cleansing being a result of that process. We are given life at that time, because He Who is Life takes up residence in us.

We are new creatures because we are something we were not before.

Consider again:


Ezekiel 36:27

King James Version (KJV)

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


God is the reason we are able to walk in His statutes and keep His judgments. Contrast that with the concept of our obeying God because we are new creatures.

Hope that is understandable, lol.


God bless.

 

[percho]

As seen in the Old Testament example the Law set forth, cleansing is usually in relation to sin.

The "cleansing," or, "washing," or, "Baptism" of John was a washing intended to represent the washing that had occurred internally, but did not effect that cleansing. For this reason he refused to baptize the Pharisees (Matthew 3) and other Jews (Mark 1) because their lives did not evidence true repentance (hence the question, "Who hath warned you to flee the wrath to come...you certainly didn't come to this realization yourself!").

We see this in many Prophecies in the Old Testament. For example...


Isaiah 1:18

King James Version (KJV)

18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.



Now what Nicodemus should have immediately thought of when the Lord said "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit" was...




The water here, as well as in John, is not physical water which "puts away the filth of the flesh," as Peter makes clear, but is the same water we see used for cleansing here:


Ephesians 5:25-26

King James Version (KJV)

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,


The disciples were commanded to abide in Him, which was a command expected only after being born again, when they had received the Comforter. But we see a cleansing that took place prior to that...


John 15

King James Version (KJV)

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.


Now while we see cleansing, and it is certainly the Word of God (Himself) in view, we do not ascribe new birth as having occurred. They were not new creatures trusting in the death of Christ, but natural men who would in just a few hours abandon the Lord in order to save their physical lives.




Yes, it is he same Spirit, the Spirit of God, Who effects all of these.

The general thrust in regards to the redemption of our bodies is to point out that the entire world lies under the curse, and even the world yearns, as we do, to be redeemed from the corruption in inherent in physical/mortal flesh.

That redemption will in part be fulfilled in the Millennial Kingdom when God "renovates," if you will, this present creation (men live longer in physical bodies, enmity between man and animal and animal and animal removed). But as prophecy can be seen to have multiple fulfillment with a final fulfillment ultimately in view, even so the redemption of this Creation will be the creation of a New heavens and Earth.



Not in my view, because the Lord makes it clear that Nicodemus is in error to ask how one can re-enter his mother's womb.


What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The birth from above is that effected by God and is a spiritual event, in fact a spiritual resurrection of men who, though having physical life, are dead.


John 6:49-51

King James Version (KJV)

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.


God bless.

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Rev 1:5
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1 John 1:7

Would you reconcile, the washing and cleansing by the blood, with the washing of regeneration?

According to the word, what did the washing of water of Jesus, Matt. 3:15-17
picture concerning Jesus relative to Jesus saying, "But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!" Luke 12:50 and,"Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with:

Did his water baptism picture a future baptism of him, that we also have yet in our future.

For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. So then death worketh in us, but life in you. We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you. 2 Cor 4:11-14

Do we still have to drink of the cup of suffering, as he did, unto death and be baptized with life as he was?

 

[Darrell C]

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Rev 1:5
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1 John 1:7

Would you reconcile, the washing and cleansing by the blood, with the washing of regeneration?

Yes. That is the point, really: we were sinners, in need of cleansing from sin, and that is accomplished, not by a physical baptism that puts away the filth of the flesh (washes the outside of the cup, lol), but a baptism (washing) that cleanses by removing sin.

Remember that Baptism is an identification with something or someone. John's Baptism identified those baptized with John and repentance, and this was a picture of a sinning Judaizer/Israelite remorseful for their failure to keep the Covenant Relationship with God. That is the ultimate purpose for John's preaching and baptizing.

That relationship ultimately pictured the Relationship that would be created through identification and cleansing through the Baptism Christ would bring, which would not just be an external washing as found within the Law, but an internal and spiritual cleansing that in reality, as opposed to the temporary nature of remission of sins found in the Law...would take away sins.

The identification we have is with God in an internal and spiritual reality not found in the Law. The washing includes cleansing by the Word, which is intrinsic to salvation itself. The Comforter convicts the sinner by reason of the enlightening the natural mind to the reality of the Gospel (we are sinners, Christ is righteous, we will be judged/He has taken that judgment upon Himself). The cleansing that results from the eternal indwelling results from our union with God, whereby we partake of a nature (His) that we were previously excluded from.

So we don't make the cleansing that results from the Word of God (which continues after we are saved) exclusive from the indwelling of God, but it is the entire process by which we receive cleansing, and continue to do so. We continue being cleansed after salvation, this a direct result of our relationship, but that does not negate that in regards to the penalty of sin we have been cleansed.

There are two sanctifications taught in Scripture, progressive and positional. Progressive is in regards to our daily conversation, and positional in regards to our standing, our position from an eternal perspective, as seen here:



1 Corinthians 6:11

King James Version (KJV)

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

According to the word, what did the washing of water of Jesus, Matt. 3:15-17
picture concerning Jesus

Matthew 3:14-15

King James Version (KJV)

14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.


Just as He states, it pertains to righteousness in relation to the Covenant of Law.

Keep in mind that the Messiah was distinctly of Israel, and Christ Himself said "I am come only to the Lost Sheep of Israel." John was a Prophet of God, and Christ not only validates John's Ministry, but John Ministry validates Christ:


16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.


I do not view this as equal to what takes place in a believer that is born again, because though a Man, Christ was God. I do not see Him at this time receiving the Spirit of God, as that would imply Christ was a natural man prior to that, and that is not the case.

So the accomplishment here is a validation of the Messiah and an identification with the Covenant of Law. Christ was "made under the Law," and it was critical that God manifest in flesh not be found in violation of the very Covenant He gave to His People.

relative to Jesus saying, "But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!"

Again, we look at identification, and the baptism of suffering would identify Christ with Man and the very penalty, death, of Man in relation to sins.

Luke 12:50 and,"Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with:

They too would die, not for their sins, but put to death because of their ministry.

It is not equated to Christ's Death, as Christ alone accomplished Atonement for sin. But, they too would suffer for the Kingdom of God.

The "cup" Christ would drink from is not equated to the cup the disciples (who had come asking to sit one on each side of His Throne), but they too would suffer for the cause of redemption. It was not salvific in the eternal sense, but was salvific in the temporal sense, just as all evangelistic efforts are. While evangelists do not "save" people, they are used of God in that process.

Did his water baptism picture a future baptism of him, that we also have yet in our future.

Only if one is not saved.

We could liken His water Baptism to Christian Baptism in the sense that these are pictures of spiritual truths, and we could liken it to the Baptism with the Holy Spirit.

But, this event was within the framework of the Law, and is actually an"Old Testament" event, and should not be equated to that which is found within the framework of the New Covenant.

All shadow, parable, and prophecy in Scripture always points to the ultimate fulfillment. Christ being Baptized by John was by no means a fulfillment, but an illustration.

Apparently the righteousness of Christ could be questioned had He not been Baptized, and perhaps it would have come across as a rejection of the Covenant of Law, and Christ fulfilled the Law perfectly.

For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. So then death worketh in us, but life in you. We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you. 2 Cor 4:11-14

If I had to sum the chapter up it would be "We do not have our eyes on this life in which we all perish, but to that ultimate destiny that awaits us."

Do we still have to drink of the cup of suffering, as he did, unto death and be baptized with life as he was?

In regards to the former half of the statement, I don't think this applies to everyone, but I do think there are still people who give up their lives, thus suffer for the Kingdom of God. While it might not always be the quick execution all the time (and that goes on today as well, as persecution is prevalent in certain countries, primarily Muslim), there are people who give their lives over to God, and in doing so...lose them.

So I would answer the question no, not for every believer.

In regards to the latter half...

unto death and be baptized with life as he was?

...I would say absolutely not.

We receive the very Life of God when we are saved, and this due to the Eternal Indwelling of the Eternal God. Eternal Life is not a substance, it the Person of God. When we are reconciled to God and that union restored (the renewing of the Holy Ghost), we have eternal life.

This is not due to our doing...anything.

The only part men take in salvation is to be obedient to the Gospel. The Comforter enlightens the natural man and convicts concerning sin, righteousness, and judgment, and man then responds. That ministry, I believe, is not always instantaneous in salvation, as some, like myself, may be under that convicting ministry longer than others. Many will ultimately sear their conscience to that ministry, and I believe God has a line that, when crossed, ends that ministry in that individual's life.

While we can say our "old man is crucified with Him," that does not mean we were on the Cross of Christ, as this implies we supplemented that Work, and we did not.

Salvation is a free gift, not something that requires our participation, apart from yielding to the truth and coming under obedience to that truth.

Great questions, Percho, hope this helps.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

We see John the Baptist prophecy of Christ, Who at the time had not "come after John," which places the particular baptizing Christ would do clearly in the future from John's declaration...


Matthew 3:11-12

King James Version (KJV)

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


I wanted to point out the Baptisms presented by John, which he states Christ would accomplish, because I see it as important to an understanding of the New Birth.

John is preaching about repentance and judgment. So in view are two issues which contrast, repentance (and this within the framework of the Law), and judgment. John states that judgment is at hand:


Matthew 3:7-10

King James Version (KJV)

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.


John warns them not to look to heritage (v.9) for reprieve. He focuses on their need for repentance, which without...will result in judgment.

The "axe" is ready to fall. His charge to the Pharisees (and other Jews Mark 1) is to show in their lives they have truly repented, as opposed to a public profession which he knows is illegitimate based on their lives.

Now back to the key text:


Matthew 3:11-12

King James Version (KJV)

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


First note that something is coming that is greater than what John is doing.

Now we look at what is contrasted, which is the Baptisms Christ will perform:


Matthew 3:11-12

King James Version (KJV)

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


In view are two baptism the Baptizer will effect: salvation (Baptism with the Holy Ghost), and judgment (baptism with fire).

And those are the only two Baptisms associated with Christ on an eternal level in regards to repentance. One will either repent and be Baptized with the Holy Ghost, or not, and receive eternal judgment.


God bless.

 

[Van]

I have not read this thread, but I voted yes. My thinking is simple, Jesus said "today" you will be with Me in Paradise, referring to heaven, the kingdom of God. And we know from John 3 no one enters the kingdom unless they have been born anew. Thus, QED, its a lock.

 

[JamesL]

I have not read this thread, but I voted yes. My thinking is simple, Jesus said "today" you will be with Me in Paradise, referring to heaven, the kingdom of God. And we know from John 3 no one enters the kingdom unless they have been born anew. Thus, QED, its a lock.

Do you suppose the thief went to Paradise with Christ before Christ died?

The New Covenant, with new heart and new spirit, were inaugurated in His blood.

 

[Van]

No, no one was born anew before Jesus died on the cross.

 

[JamesL]

No, no one was born anew before Jesus died on the cross.

Do you see the OP as a bit of a misnomer? I answered no, with the qualification that scripture poses the cross as the delineating moment, not Pentecost

 

[percho]

Darrell C

Was it the blood, of the sinless one, that washed away our sins or are our sins washed away because of our regeneration?

 

[Van]

This is another easy one. Some folks think when Christ died, that the sin burden of the elect was removed. However, others including me, believe our sins are removed when God places us spiritually "in Christ." This is when we "receive" the reconciliation provided by Christ's sacrifice.

 

[percho]

This is another easy one. Some folks think when Christ died, that the sin burden of the elect was removed. However, others including me, believe our sins are removed when God places us spiritually "in Christ." This is when we "receive" the reconciliation provided by Christ's sacrifice.

Why would you think that?

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved ( vi Fut Pas 1 Pl ) by his life Rom 5:10

What life is this speaking of? Is it speaking of the following life?

Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. Rom 6:9 And
So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. Heb 5:5,6 Acts 13:33

God, the Father, made Jesus high priest after the order of Melchisedec the day he gave him life form the dead, to die no more. Therefore;

And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, <(reconciled by his blood) seeing he ever liveth <(Rom 6:9) to make intercession for them. Heb 7:23-25 Therefore

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:7,9

For the life (soul) of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. Lev 17:11
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 1 Cor 15:3,4

What is the purpose of the incarnation? Of God sending his Son born of woman? Of coming in the flesh?

It appears to me that it is the regeneration of Jesus from death, with life apart from the blood, that allow his sinless blood to wash away our sins.

 

[Van]

Hi Percho, lets go over this by the numbers:

1, Why do I think we are reconciled only when we are spiritually placed in Christ? Answer - because that is what is clearly taught in several passages in scripture!

2) Romans 5:10 says we have been, past tense, reconciled. Yes, but that is talking about Paul and his fellow born anew believers, not future believers. Thus they have already been placed in Christ and have received the reconciliation. They have the ministry of reconciliation for those not yet born anew. Your view would not need a ministry of reconciliation where as ambassadors of Christ, we beg the lost to be reconciled to God.

3) What is this future salvation of Romans 5:10. Scripture speaks of salvation in three ways, past, present and future. When it speaks of future, it refers to the afterlife or when Christ returns. Thus the salvation is from the wrath of God, which the lost faces in the afterlife in Hades and Gehenna.

4) Romans 6:4 refers of coming to God through Christ. And this occurs when we are placed in Christ and we undergo the circumcision of Christ.

5) 1 John 1:7-9 refers to after we have been spiritually placed in Christ and cleansed with His blood, not before.

6) The issue is not that Christ's blood makes the reconciliation, the issue is when do we receive the reconciliation.

 

[Yeshua1]

Again, I would suggest that the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is critical to understanding what the New Birth is.

We are made new through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, cleansing being a result of that process. We are given life at that time, because He Who is Life takes up residence in us.

We are new creatures because we are something we were not before.

Consider again:


Ezekiel 36:27

King James Version (KJV)

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


God is the reason we are able to walk in His statutes and keep His judgments. Contrast that with the concept of our obeying God because we are new creatures.

Hope that is understandable, lol.


God bless.

Would say that under the Old covenant, God was and did remit and hold not their sins against them due to the coming Messiah, just as he does that towards infants who die today, but would say that the born again experience for all believers, the permanent dsealing and indwelling did not happen until the new covenant was established!

 

[percho]

In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; Titus 1:2

Is being born again essential to inheriting the promise of God, made before the world began?
Is inheriting the promise of God equivalent to inheriting the kingdom of God?

Why the use of the word, born? Nick, was not an idiot. He understood what born meant. Therefore the question, "Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"
There is time in the womb and then birth.

What brings about the promise of God? Our hope? The redemption of the body, the birth, the adoption?

The Spirit of adoption indwelling in us, in the body of us?

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 1 Cor 6:19 Why?
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Romans 8:11

Did those before Pentecost following the resurrection of Jesus have the, Holy Spirit of promise indwelling in them?

Eph 1:13
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

The promise of what?

Eph 1:14
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. John 3:6,7

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 1 Cor 15:44
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 1 Cor 15:46

To date Jesus of Nazareth born of the virgin Mary is the only man to have experienced that.

 

[Van]

Hi Percho, all of these questions have been answered time and time again.
1) Is being born anew essential? Yes, born anew = saved, not born anew = not saved.

2) You speak of the promise of God like that spoke of some particular promise. If you are speaking of the promise of eternal life, as in John 3:16, then being born anew is essential.

3) Being born anew spiritually occurs when a person is spiritually placed in Christ, undergoes the circumcision of Christ and arises in Christ a new creation.

4) How do we obtain the promise of God of eternal life? John 3:16 says everyone believing into Him shall not perish but have eternal life. How do we believe into Him? By having our faith in Christ credited as righteousness by God.

5) We are indwelt with the Holy Spirit after we are born anew. Thus we are in Christ and Christ is in us. And this Spirit is given as a pledge for our inheritance, the redemption of our bodies, at Christ's second coming. Hence the Spirit of Adoption, or the pledge for the promise of adoption.

6) I am sorry but the rest of your post seems to just ramble on pointlessly.

 

[Darrell C]

I have not read this thread, but I voted yes. My thinking is simple, Jesus said "today" you will be with Me in Paradise, referring to heaven, the kingdom of God. And we know from John 3 no one enters the kingdom unless they have been born anew. Thus, QED, its a lock.

We keep in mind that the thief's arrival in Paradise (1) takes place after Christ's death, (2) does not necessitate that he was in Heaven that day, but Paradise (which is a debatable issue, though I think Hebrews makes it clear men did not go into the Holiest of All until after Christ's death), and most importantly, (3)...the New Birth is something that occurs when men are physically alive, not after they are dead (meaning it takes place before death, this does not preclude those of faith who had previously died being made perfect at that time, which is what occurred to the thief).


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell C

Was it the blood, of the sinless one, that washed away our sins or are our sins washed away because of our regeneration?

The Atonement of Christ is the complete package, which removes the penalty of sin through Christ's death, allowing relationship between God and man to be Reconciled, so we do not separate the aspects of Redemption through Christ in that manner.

Regeneration is the result of the indwelling, in my view, meaning that we are new creatures because we become, when we are reconciled to God, something which we were not before: alive.

That life, eternal life, is not a substance poured into or applied to a believer from a positional perspective, as the declaration of righteousness through faith was to the Old Testament Saint, but is the literal Eternal Life which is the Nature of God. We have Eternal Life because He Who is Eternal dwells in us.

When we are saved by the washing of regeneration, in view is a clear statement of Eternal Security. If one is not regenerated they are not saved. We do not separate the cleansing which takes place through salvation and make that cleansing exclusively one aspect or another, but view Eternal Redemption as the complete package effected by God.

I have addressed the issue of the distinction between atonement and redemption in the thread "The Redemption of Israel," where this distinction is denied, but will help us to understand the New Birth in a New Covenant context, if you care to look at it.


God bless.

 

[revmwc]

Okay, a simple question...or is it?

And just to clarify, by Born Again I mean regenerated.

This is a thread I usually run on forums and didn't realize I had not done one here, so, here it is, and it is a great discussion. Give it some thought before responding.

And if possible, I would like to know if you have ever really given any serious thought to the question before.


God bless.

Prior to Pentecost Jesus stated:

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Both these were said by Jesus before Pentecost so you must be Born again is what He told Nicodemus. It was a strange saying to Nicodemus but Jesus said it nonetheless before Pentecost.

 

[Darrell C]

This is another easy one. Some folks think when Christ died, that the sin burden of the elect was removed. However, others including me, believe our sins are removed when God places us spiritually "in Christ." This is when we "receive" the reconciliation provided by Christ's sacrifice.

Then you will need to reconcile what you think with what Scripture teaches, for starters, here...


Hebrews 9:11-15

King James Version (KJV)

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Only the Blood of Christ can eternally redeem, all Old Testament Saints offered up only vicarious animal death for remission of sins.

Only the Bread of Heaven can bestow Eternal Life, no Old Testament Saint received the Bread until He came down from Heaven.

And only Christ is the Finisher of our faith, no Old Testament Saint died without being in need of perfection.

We see them here:


Hebrews 12:22-24

King James Version (KJV)

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.



If we equate the redemption of the Old Testament Saint then we must neglect, or worse, negate that which is taught in numerous places which draw a clear distinction between redemption through the Law (the God ordained method of atonement which precedes the coming of Christ) and Eternal Redemption only accomplished through the offering of Himself.

Not one of even Christ's closest disciples were made privy to the Mystery of the Gospel prior to Pentecost. While we might try to see new birth immediately after the Cross, New Birth is dependent upon belief in Christ's death and resurrection, and the disciples cannot be found to be said to believe, but are in fact pointed out as unbelievers until, according to the Promise of God, and the teaching of Christ, they are Baptized with the Holy Spirit, which is when every believer is eternally indwelt by God through the Reconciliatory Work of Christ. This involved the necessity of the Comforter being sent...after He returned to Heaven.

Show me how these...


Luke 24:6-11

King James Version (KJV)

6 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,

7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.

8 And they remembered his words,

9 And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest.

10 It was Mary Magdalene and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles.

11 And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.


Mark 16:12-14

King James Version (KJV)

12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.





...are born again believers who trust in Christ's death and His Resurrection.

It is not our place to think what Scripture means, but to know. And we know that the disciples were not trusting in Christ at that point, but in their hearts were just as scattered in their hearts as the Lord said they would be when He was taken.

We cannot see Peter's vehement denial of Christ as the actions of one abiding in Christ, but the actions of an unbeliever seeking to save his physical life. This is why Peter rebukes the Lord when the Lord gives them the Gospel:


Matthew 16:21-23

King James Version (KJV)

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.



The New Birth is not possible for Christ rejecters, and when Christ rebukes the disciples for unbelief, we can safely know that they were not...believers according to New Covenant standard, but Old Testament Saints in need of the revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel which is revealed by the Holy Ghost sent down from Heaven.

We see on the Day of Ascension itself that the disciples had not yet received this promise:


Acts 1:4-8

King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.



God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
Okay, a simple question...or is it?

And just to clarify, by Born Again I mean regenerated.

This is a thread I usually run on forums and didn't realize I had not done one here, so, here it is, and it is a great discussion. Give it some thought before responding.

And if possible, I would like to know if you have ever really given any serious thought to the question before.


God bless.

Prior to Pentecost Jesus stated:


Quote:
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Both these were said by Jesus before Pentecost so you must be Born again is what He told Nicodemus. It was a strange saying to Nicodemus but Jesus said it nonetheless before Pentecost.

Christ also told the disciples to...




Mark 16:12-16

King James Version (KJV)

12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.



...but that does not negate the fact that this ministry would occur after they had been Baptized with the Holy Ghost:


Acts 1:4-8

King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.



The undeniable truth is that a command was given that was not capable of being fulfilled at that time.

Another example would be the command to "Abide in Me," which did not mean they would abide at that time, and we see they did not, and in fact were scattered, Peter going so far as to deny he even knew Christ.

The Lord's teaching in John 3 simply reiterates the teaching of the Prophecy and Promise of God. Nicodemus clearly has a carnal understanding in that he asks how a man can return to his mother's womb and, physically, be born again. The Question "Art thou a/the Teacher of Israel and you do not understand these things" can be viewed as "Why are you thinking physically when you should know that the promise of God for conversion from your state of unbelief (which is the state Israel was in, i.e., "I am come only to the Lost Sheep of Israel) is an internal and spiritual work of God involving the heart, spirit, and indwelling of God?"

And we consider that the Kingdom in view from Nicodemus would not have been the Kingdom we understand, but the same Kingdom all of Israel awaited, which is Restored Israel. We see the disciples, after being told "You will be Baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence," amazingly ask, "Wilt thou restore the Kingdom to Israel at this time?"

It shows the lack of understanding on the parts of not just Nicodemus, but all men prior to the Holy Ghost being sent from Heaven. That does not mean they were not Elect, it simply places them in the same understanding that fits within the framework of Progressive Revelation.

And that is all the time I have, and just wanted to ask if anyone else is having trouble with the sizing when posting? Mine is not working this morning for some reason.


God bless.