Were Old Tesament Saints Born Again?

[Marcia]

Well I said guys"ment and Gals" One says exception,the other said no way,but you agreed. I don't see any difference here......indwelled"born from above"sealed.

There is no clear teaching in the OT that having the Spirit equaled being born again. Many think Saul was not saved.

Also, I think indwelling implies permanence, a result of being born again after Jesus ascended when the Holy Spirit was given to the saints. Jesus said that unless he left, the Spirit could not come.

Some OT people had the Spirit come upon them and in some cases stay with them (as far as we know), but this is not the same as a person who believes now having the indwelling of the HS as a permanent thing.

The ministry of the Spirit in the OT is not the same in many ways as in the NT.

 

[Marcia]

It is my stance the Old Testament Saints were indeed dwelt by Gods spirit. I also believe it shows His spirit upon His servants in a special way at times for His service"two separate things".

Can you support this scripturally - that there was some kind of promise or clear statement that the Holy Spirit would indwell those who believed God? I don't think you can.

What about the Spirit being taken from Saul? Also, the Spirit was given to Balaam in a certain situation, but many don't think Balaam was saved (especially considering the way he is referenced in the NT).

In the OT, we see phrases like "Then the Spirit of the Lord came upon xxxx." But as far as I know, we never see anyone described as "full of the Spirit," as we do in the NT. If there is such an instance, I can't think of it.

 

[Jim1999]

So, there is salvation after death! Maybe there is a purgatory. Further, I wouldn't accept the study of all these old time theologians of note, Walvoord, The two Hodges, Berkower, Strong....what could they have known?

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Jedi Knight]

Hi Marcia,"Can you support this scriptural ".If you read my other post I did give some scriptures for this.:wavey: And yes the spirit left them....he dose the same with us "The Power for service" thats diffrent from the spirit in our hearts"sealed".Jesus breathed on them and said receive the holy spirit. Jesus told Peter"Indeed the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. The holy spirit was there the whole time,BUT the POWER came at Pentecost when Jesus said wait! Example....Mary and Martha waited 4 Jesus when there brother died and believed. But had to wait to SEE the POWER. Jesus said "didn't I say if you would believe you would SEE the GLORY of God"POWER"? Believe is Gods spirit giving you faith to trust.....Romans 15:13 Now may God, the source of hope, fill you with all joy and peace as you believe, so that you may overflow with hope by the POWER of the Holy Spirit.

 

[zrs6v4]

I have always wondered about this..

- I would say that the OT saints had to be born again, although like every debate it is not easy to pinpoint these things.

My thought after reading some posts is that Jesus expected Nicodemus in John 3 to understand rebirth when He asked him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? I think Jesus was implying that Nicodemus was not born of the Spirit, therefore couldnt understand Jesus or the things of the Spirit although he knew Jesus was of God.....

- also if total depravity is true, which I believe, then without being born again would David be able to be a man after God's heart? and down the list...

- men of the OT were justified by grace through faith. this means they were clothed in white and they took on the life and death of Jesus. So if they were blameless and perfect in the sight of God, then they must have had the Holy Spirit/born again by a future sacrifice of the Messiah.


-John 16:7 must be regarding the secret will of God that Jesus has been revealing. It seems to be saying that if Jesus doesnt die and be resurrected then His whole mission was not fulfilled (obviously impossible to not happen). This is why He says "If I dont go away, the Helper will not come to you..." I personally think the helper has been there the entire time or the disciples might have walked with the majority of others who fell away to Jesus' hard teachings. I also think the Helper has always been there even before Jesus or nobody would have reached repentence in the OT. God's will was for Jesus to be lifted in forty days and carry out the great comission through the apostles, in Spirit. This is my opinion which is prone to errors :laugh:

 

[Jim1999]

Dispense with the faulty notion that the church age is a parenthetical period, the NT does say, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see God..." How many times is it stated that men of old "saw God"? Yes, this may very well have been the image of God, the work of the Holy Spirt, or the presence of Messiah, in the Holy Spirit, such as in Job's experience.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Marcia]

Hi Marcia,"Can you support this scriptural ".If you read my other post I did give some scriptures for this.:wavey: And yes the spirit left them....he dose the same with us "The Power for service" thats diffrent from the spirit in our hearts"sealed"..

Jedi Knight, I'm sorry but I could not disagree more! The Holy Spirit never leaves us! And there are not 2 Holy Spirits - one for salvation and sealing and one for service! When we are empowered by the Holy Spirit, we are yielding more the Spirit; it's not that an "extra" Spirit comes in to empower us for service.

Jesus breathed on them and said receive the holy spirit. Jesus told Peter"Indeed the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. The holy spirit was there the whole time,BUT the POWER came at Pentecost when Jesus said wait!

Jesus breathed on them and gave them the Holy Spirit because he had not ascended and therefore, the Holy Spirit had not come as the indwelling Spirit. They were in that time between the OT and before the Ascension. That is why the Spirit had not indwelt them and that is why Jesus said that unless he went, the Spirit could not come.

 

[Marcia]

Hi Marcia,"Can you support this scriptural ".If you read my other post I did give some scriptures for this.

I don't think you did. You mention Samson and Gideon but those are cases where the Spirit came upon them. There is no indwelling or mention of the promise of an indwelling Spirit in the OT.

 

[Jim1999]

How were people saved in the Old Testament? What does "born again" mean? What are the functions of each member of the Trinity?

Since God is holy and cannot fathom the presence of sin, how is a NT man indwelled by the Holy Spirit and still be a sinful being?

I think there needs to be a redefining of what "indwelt" means.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Marcia]

How were people saved in the Old Testament? What does "born again" mean? What are the functions of each member of the Trinity?

I think people in the OT were saved by grace through faith.

I am not sure about the term "born again" or "born from above" in the OT since I think it's not in the OT, is it? I also do not think believers were indwelt by the Holy Spirt in the OT the way they were in the NT (and are now).

Since God is holy and cannot fathom the presence of sin, how is a NT man indwelled by the Holy Spirit and still be a sinful being?

That is why I think when the Spirit was sent to Saul and Balaam, for example, it was not a permanent indwelling, or perhaps it was just an external empowerment. I am not sure, but the Spirit was taken away from Saul, and I do not think Balaam was saved, so I think the Spirit came upon him temporarily.

I think there needs to be a redefining of what "indwelt" means.

That could be. In that case, I would say for the Holy Spirit to indwell someone, that means it is permanent and they are sealed.

I think the best evidence for my view here is when Jesus said in John 16.7:
"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you."

 

[Jedi Knight]

So the LORD said to Moses, “Take Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the Spirit, and lay your hand on him (Num 27:18)(also Caleb Numbers 14:21.) When he turned his back to leave Samuel, God gave him another heart. And all these signs came to pass that day (1Sa 10:9). I put this up before and John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit in the womb. Jesus had the spirit come down on Him too if you remember.
__________________

 

[Jim1999]

Then the three persons of the trinity are not omnipresent and fleet about doing their own thing?

Certanly the words "born again" do not appear in the OT, but saved is saved is saved regardless of time frame. It is eternal. In the OT in the shadow of the cross to come, and now by the actual work of the Holy Spirit in view of the cross of history. I believe Jesus is simply saying that He is not leaving us alone as He goes to the right hand of the Father in heaven, and the Holy Comforter will be there in His physical absence to carry on His work. Not a change in duties or functions, but a continuation.

Cheers,

Jim

Note: The more you study the Trinity, the more puzzling it becomes. I look at it as the President of the company, the 2nd President (Jesus), the right hand Man, and 3rd President (Holy Spirit) the working Hand of God the Father....Don't look at this too religiously because it is obviously in human terminology.

 

[Steven2006]

I agree.

Jesus said He must go away in order for the Holy Spirit to come.

I also agree. The answer really doesn't get any clearer than this.

 

[Steven2006]

Joe 2:28 "And it shall come to pass afterward
That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions.
Joe 2:29 And also on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.

Joe 2:30 "And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth:
Blood and fire and pillars of smoke.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the LORD
Shall be saved.
For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance,
As the LORD has said,
Among the remnant whom the LORD calls.


Zec 12:10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
Zec 12:11 "In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.[fn2]
Zec 12:12 "And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves;
Zec 12:13 "the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves;
Zec 12:14 "all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves.

 

[Me4Him]

Ex 33:18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.

20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

Ge 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

God the Father is a "Spirit" on which "NO FLESH" can behold and still live,

Yet when God takes on a "Physical form" (Angel of the lord/God/Jesus) he can be seen "face to face" without the flesh dying.

But the differences between them is much more,

In the OT, God spoke to people through prophets,
In the NT, Jesus speaks "Directly" to people. (Holy Ghost)

OT, God made promises/prophecy
NT, Jesus fulfilled promises/prophecy

OT, No comforter/indwelling spirit
NT, Comforter/Holy Ghost

OT, died, present in Abraham's bosom
NT, absent from body, present with the lord.

OT, under the law
NT, not under the law, but "Grace".

I've had people tell me they understand the "Trinity", yet they don't believe in a "pre Trib rapture", how can that be??

The rapture ends this period of Grace, Israel goes back under the law and prophets (two witnesses) the "comforter" is taken out of the way, power is back on the side of the oppressor, and under the law, anyone caught in "Adultery" as in whoring after other gods, which Israel did in rejecting Jesus, will result in them "literally" being "put to death".

Under Grace, we die "Spiritually", because Jesus suffer our chastisement/stripes in his flesh,

but under the law, you "literally" die, suffering chastisement/stripes in your flesh, the reason Satan is given power to literally kill Trib saints.

But here's the point, Law and Grace can not function at the same time, same time frame, Just as the Law and prophets ended with Jesus/grace period,

The law and prophets can't return until the "fulness of the Gentiles/Grace period".

The "Trinity", and it's differences, doesn't just explain "God", it explains scripture as well,

Which is why I ask, how can you understand the Trinity and not a pre trib rapture???

 

[EdSutton]

OT saints were regenerated by the Spirit. That's my belief.

But it's a mistake to equate the regenerative work of the Spirit with his personally indwelling of a believer.

They are not the same.

Agreed!

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

[Snipped for a reason.]

Jedi Knight, I just noticed your 'tag-line' reads in this manner.

It's my job as a teacher of the Word of God to do permanent damage to your ignorance. :tongue3:

Anyway, Welcome to the Baptist Board, in case I failed to welcome you, earlier. :wavey:

Oh yeah! - One small bit of unsought advice.

May I suggest you don't give up your 'day-job' just yet, as long as it's still paying the rent. Again -

Ed

 

[Jedi Knight]

Howdy Ed..."May I suggest you don't give up your 'day-job' just yet, as long as it's still paying the rent." Sorry Ed I think your wrong in your view of the scriptures on this topic,but I won't tell ya "don't give up your job":wavey: Also John Piper has written about the Saints of Old being born again if you like to Google it. Anyways it seems to be half and half "down the middle" thus far of the opinions here.

 

[Marcia]

So the LORD said to Moses, “Take Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the Spirit, and lay your hand on him (Num 27:18)(also Caleb Numbers 14:21.) When he turned his back to leave Samuel, God gave him another heart. And all these signs came to pass that day (1Sa 10:9). I put this up before and John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit in the womb. Jesus had the spirit come down on Him too if you remember.
__________________

These scriptures do not prove your point. They show that God sent His Spirit on men in the OT -- I've not disagreed with that.

However, you have not shown that there is an OT promise of the indwelling Spirit such as we have in the NT. Remember, even David prayed, "Do not remove your Spirit from me." The Spirit could be removed from men in the OT, but not so in the NT.

 

[Jim1999]

I guess "eternal security" only existed after Pentecost. I'm sure that scripture is plain in some book.

Cheers,

Jim