Featured Were Old Testament Saints Born Again?

Absolutely YES----they had to be born again----what did Jesus say----Unless a man be born again---he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!!

Being born again is a Jewish term for repenting of the old sin nature and receiving the NEW nature of the coming Messiah-----ole Nic didn't have a clue until the Kingdom's King opened his eyes!!:saint::saint:

 

Mercy!!!! I forgot!!! Next thing on my agenda!!:laugh::laugh:

 

They could not enter into the Kingdom when they died. Exactly. They weren't born again. They had to wait for the messiah to enter.

 

Your ability to detect sarcasm is also Remarkable! Please notice I quoted scripture. i am not in the habit of disputing Scripture.

So you claim that one who is spiritually dead can stand justified before God. Very Remarkable! So why did Jesus Christ endure the Cross?

And what did that faith do for Abraham?

Can all on this Forum assume that you are holy, blameless and perfect. I was under the impression that only God was HOLY! Anyhow if a spiritually dead person can stand before God justified I ask again: So why did Jesus Christ endure the Cross?

Then present the Scripture!

 

As I have said twice already circumcision has NOTHING to do with JUSTIFICATION.

Were you ritually circumcised before you were justified? I was not!

 

Is not what you are saying found in Psalms 51? Especially v's 10-14.

David had the Holy Spirit and did not want God to take it away. God did not want an animal sacrifice but a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart.

My question would be. Why did David have the Holy Spirit and someone else, let's say Saul before him or even his son Absolom may not have had the Holy Spirit?

Is it because God choose David for purpose? As in Rom 8:28.

 

Absolutely! But it literally is NOT 'born again', it's 'born from above', as in:

....It behoveth you to be born from above; the Spirit where he willeth doth blow....thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit. Jn 3:7,8 YLT

...as in:

26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, so also it is now. Gal 4

When I consider passages such as this:

I rejoice at thy word, As one that findeth great spoil. Ps 119:162

or this:

But his delight is in the law of Jehovah; And on his law doth he meditate day and night. Ps 1:2

or these:

16 I will delight myself in thy statutes: I will not forget thy word. GIMEL.
18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold Wondrous things out of thy law. Ps 119

...and then consider that those OT Saints had only a fraction of the scriptures that we have; it was incomplete and lacking the fulfillment/revelation of the NT, and yet they were able to derive great joy and delight from meditating in the law. I don't think the natural man void of the Spirit could derive that sort of pleasure from those incomplete writings (or even in the Bible we have today for that matter), the Spirit had to be the source of the joy.

 

Look, my post from which you first made this comment about NEVER said that circumcision was inclusive of justification. I brought in circumcision in the case of Abraham to prove just one point and one point only which YOU HAVE IGNORED and then attempted to change the subject to something I HAVE NEVER SAID.

That ONE POINT for which I brought in circumcision is the very SAME POINT that Paul brought in circucmision in regard to justification of Abraham, to prove justification HAD ALREADY OCCURRED, was a PAST TENSE REALITY in the life of Abraham BEFORE he was circumcised. WHY IS THAT IMPORTANT???? Because it proves that Old Testament saints were not only fully justified BEFORE the cross, BEFORE Pentecost, but even WHILE THEY WERE ALIVE and BEFORE and WITHOUT dependence upon Divine rites, sacrifices, circumcision or any other divine rite. THAT WAS MY POINT and that is a valid point since this thread is dedicated to prove the NEW BIRTH occurred in their lives prior to the cross BECAUSE God cannot justify (impute righteousness, remit sins) SPIRITUALLY DEAD persons. Moreover, the very same argument that denies NEW BIRTH occurred previous to Pentecost is the VERY SAME ARGUMENT that denies anything else about salvation occurred before the cross. The point is that new birth, justification, sanctification, indwelling, sealing, etc. all were existent previous to the cross and without dependence upon divine rites/ceremonies IN THEIR OWN LIFE time.

Now, that was my point for introducing Romans 4 and circumcision in connection with justification as Abraham is the PATTERN for all believers and if this pattern was JUSTIFIED in his own life time PRIOR to the cross or Pentecost AND without dependence upon divine rites (circumcison/sacrifices) then it proves their salvation was identical to our salvation and remission of sins was actual and applicable then and there just as Acts 10:43 explicitly states.

Therefore, if you come back with this same nonsensical question, then either you can't understand English or you have yet to read the post that you are complaining about, because if you read the initial post you are drawing your complaint from you would never have asked this question in the first place, as the context of my post makes it extremely clear why I brought in circumcison in connection with justification. JUST READ IT!

 

Just as then, so it is now, that sin breaks the fellowship of a believer with the Holy Spirit. Moreover, his sin was as the acting King or God's annointed over Israel. God had given him a special measure of the Holy Spirit to RULE over Israel so as to be able to lead his people. So his sin affected more than just himself. He did not want that special annointing to rule Israel to be withdrawn as it was from the previous King Saul who willfully sinned, and the special annointing to rule over Israel had been withdrawn from Saul.

 

The OT does not seem to indicate to us though that all who were "saved" by God under the Old covenant had the indweling of the Spirit as all of us saved today have Him, as that was reserved for just those with a specific position and task, such as prophet/Priests/Kings!

So not all had the fullness of the indwelling Holy spirit as we do now, as jeremiah stated unto us that would await the coming new covenant relationship between Man and God!

 

...and I think that is a good articulation of a valid pertinent point concerning this topic.

...we..as Isaac was..children of promise...born after the Spirit...

So which was Isaac? Prophet, priest or king?

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...the joy of Jehovah is your strength. Neh 8:10

What do you suppose was the source of their joy? I say it was exactly the same source as our's:

for the kingdom of God is....righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Ro 14:17

 

First, where can you show that ANYBODY was ever saved "under the Old Covenant"???? I know of no one that obtained salvation "under" the Old Covenant? The Old Covenant could not convey life eternal according to Paul and "no flesh" has ever been justified under the old Covenant.

If NNE can be justified/saved/etc. under the Old Covenant then what covenant were they saved under?

I suggest that all who were saved between Genesis and Pentecost were saved under "the blood of the EVERLASTING covenant" - Heb. 13:20

David was saved under the everlasting Covenant - 2 Sam. 23:5

Although my house be not so with God; yet he hath made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all things, and sure: for this is all my salvation, and all my desire, although he make it not to grow.


All individuals were saved under the everlasting covenant - Isa. 55:3

Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.


We are saved under the everlasting covenant - Acts 13:34

And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

This is the "EVERLASTING" covenant it is not a dispensational covenant or a temporary covenant or a covenant between Genesis and Acts, but the EVERLASTING covenant between Genesis and Revelation and the ONLY covenant of salvation ever given by God under which anyone can be saved.

The "old" versus the "new" covenants are merely EARTHLY ADMINISTRATIONS of the "everlasting covenant" (Heb. 9:1). The "old" emphasized the holiness of God by law which pointed to those who attempted and failed to keep the law to the gospel of the coming Christ (everlasting covenant) which was a primary JEWISH covenant, whereas the "new" covenant emphasizes the grace of God by emphasizng the fulfillment of the gospel promise (the everlasting covenant) which is primary a GENTILE covenant.

 

God worked to save sinners thru the same means/basis as us now, the Cross and His resurrection, but until jesus actually came, the Holy spirit did not "work" insame fashion as under the new covenant, as he was not sent to seal and indwel personal perm basis all that had their sins forgiven them!

God forgave their sins, but they still had the flesh, and they needed to wait for the promised coming of the Holy spirit unto them under the new Covenant...

 

TB

I have carefully laboriously gone through this thread and extracted the pertinent posts by me and your response. I did not introduce the subject of circumcision, You Did! Why remains a mystery!

I still maintain that circumcision has nothing to do with justification and your long diatribe above is meaningless as far as I am concerned.

 

As usual you completely ignore everything I said because you cannot respond. This is not a discussion, this is like me talking to a wall. I USED SCRIPTURE TO PROVE MY POINTS and what do you do? You provide YESHUA OPINION! Why waste my time?

He MUST have worked in the very same way before Pentecost as after Pentecost in regard to PERSONAL SALVATION as the problem after Pentecost is the very same problem before Pentecost in regard to salvation - depraved humanity that is spiritually dead. The dead cannot serve God but your theory demands they can.

You don't understand what quickening is. You don't understand what spiritual death is. You don't understand what indwelling is BECAUSE you believe in CHURCH SALVATION, even though you deny that, that is what your belief system must and in fact does embrace.

 

If I insulted you as you just insulted me, I would receive an infraction.

If I misrepresented by you said, as you misrepresented what I said, I might receive an infraction. Did I say Abraham was justified before Christ died? Nope. I said his faith was credited as righteousness.

Faith that is reckoned as righteousness gains approval. Hebrews 11:2

Everyone who God transfers into Christ, and undergoes the circumcision of Christ, and is made alive together with Christ, is made holy and blameless and perfect. Colossians 1:22

 

There is no mystery! You were the first to bring Abraham into this discussion in regard to new birth. I responded to your mention of Abraham to prove that salvation was actually applied to Abraham BEFORE the cross and thus BEFORE Pentecost. I pinpointed the precise time it was applied to Abraham and that was BEFORE circumcision (Rom. 4:11). Thus circumcision was brought into this discussion by me in response to you bringing Abraham into the discussion in regard to the new birth prior to Pentecost. God cannot justify the SPIRIUTALLY DEAD and his justification BEFORE circumcision proves he was regenerated not merely prior to Pentecost but prior to circumcision IN HIS OWN LIFE TIME.

Here is my quote, read it carefully:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Biblicist View Post
Paul says he was justified PRIOR TO being circumcised rather than "in" circumcision part of his life and that is a long ways BEFORE Pentecost.

If you cannot understand this, I cannot help you.