37818
Well-Known Member
But it is not called a parable by the word of God. And Abraham appeals to the written word of God, I cited Moses, Solomon and David.
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Were Old Testament Saints Placed in a "Holding Cell" Before the Cross?
- Thread starter KenH
- Start date
Parable 3850 has several meanings
Your thoughts.
Did they go back into their graves or were they glorified, in body? Do they have names, that is, can we name any of them?
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The saints of the Old Testament fell under what I have tried to explain to all of you, relative to the understanding of Faith and the calling of God unto faith. Why do you believe Abel was of faith and Cain was not of faith? The choice of God, maybe? What about Jacob and Esau (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Jacob was of faith and Esau was not ,of faith.
Faith (belief) isn't of man in any fashion. Abram was called unto belief and became the father of those, of faith, Abraham through the seed of him Christ.
Justification by faith (being made righteous) is prophecy for all. The OT saints were made righteous by the obedient death of the Son of God and thus the Grace of God the Father in raising him out of the dead.
Rom 4:25 NKJV who was delivered up (became obedient unto death even the death of the cross From Phil 2:8 ) because of our offenses, and was raised ( PHil 2:9 Wherefore ) because of our justification. Heir and inheritor of the grace of life Heb 1. Joint heirs, glorified together with him R:8 Raised out of the dead and gave him glory 1 Peter 1:21
therefore do we reckon a man to be declared righteous by faith, apart from works of law. The God of Jews only is He, and not also of nations? yes, also of nations; since one is God who shall declare righteous the circumcision by faith (Prophecy), and the uncircumcision through the faith. (Prophecy fulfilled at Death and resurrection)
Removed from under law
Now, under, the grace in Christ, raised out of the dead.
The seed of Abraham to be raised with Abraham out of the dead and or changed at the coming of the Lord. Sit down with Abraham in the kingdom of Christ to be handed up to the Father. The kingdom of God.
Jacob was of faith and Esau was not ,of faith.Faith (belief) isn't of man in any fashion. Abram was called unto belief and became the father of those, of faith, Abraham through the seed of him Christ.
Justification by faith (being made righteous) is prophecy for all. The OT saints were made righteous by the obedient death of the Son of God and thus the Grace of God the Father in raising him out of the dead.
Rom 4:25 NKJV who was delivered up (became obedient unto death even the death of the cross From Phil 2:8 ) because of our offenses, and was raised ( PHil 2:9 Wherefore ) because of our justification. Heir and inheritor of the grace of life Heb 1. Joint heirs, glorified together with him R:8 Raised out of the dead and gave him glory 1 Peter 1:21
therefore do we reckon a man to be declared righteous by faith, apart from works of law. The God of Jews only is He, and not also of nations? yes, also of nations; since one is God who shall declare righteous the circumcision by faith (Prophecy), and the uncircumcision through the faith. (Prophecy fulfilled at Death and resurrection)
Removed from under law
Now, under, the grace in Christ, raised out of the dead.
The seed of Abraham to be raised with Abraham out of the dead and or changed at the coming of the Lord. Sit down with Abraham in the kingdom of Christ to be handed up to the Father. The kingdom of God.
Where is the soul, named, David today?
For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. A 2:27
Who was the prophet speaking of according to Peter?
What brought about the soul of the one David was speaking of and the flesh of the one David was speaking of not being abandoned (forsaken) to Hades and not seeing corruption. Was it not, the resurrection?
I use those words for that is the Greek of MY God, My God. For how long was he left, abandoned (forsaken) to Hades? Three days?
For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. A 2:27
Who was the prophet speaking of according to Peter?
What brought about the soul of the one David was speaking of and the flesh of the one David was speaking of not being abandoned (forsaken) to Hades and not seeing corruption. Was it not, the resurrection?
I use those words for that is the Greek of MY God, My God. For how long was he left, abandoned (forsaken) to Hades? Three days?
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My understanding is that the Old Testament saints were in a place called "Abraham's Bosom". It is part of Hades. Both Old Testament believers and Old Testament unbelievers were in Hades. The paradise part of Hades (where Lazarus was) was called Abraham's Bosom. The bad part of Hades is called Gehenna.
When Christ died and Resurrected, Heaven was ushered in and He called the OT Believers to Heaven. From that point on all Believers are brought to Heaven when they pass from this world. One day all the unbelievers, which are still in Gehenna and whom are still going there this day will be brought before the judgement seat and cast into the lake of fire.
For believers, heaven is a temporary rest stop before we resettle the New Heavens and the New Earth.
Not sure if my understanding of Abraham's Bosom fits your idea of a "holding place". That's what I've believed for quite awhile. I think it's a fairly typical IFB teaching.
When Christ died and Resurrected, Heaven was ushered in and He called the OT Believers to Heaven. From that point on all Believers are brought to Heaven when they pass from this world. One day all the unbelievers, which are still in Gehenna and whom are still going there this day will be brought before the judgement seat and cast into the lake of fire.
For believers, heaven is a temporary rest stop before we resettle the New Heavens and the New Earth.
Not sure if my understanding of Abraham's Bosom fits your idea of a "holding place". That's what I've believed for quite awhile. I think it's a fairly typical IFB teaching.
Jesus Saves!
Active Member
Here’s some scriptures that came to mind as I read this. Seems they were waiting to receive salvation from the Lord.
1 Corinthians 15:20 KJVS
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
Hebrews 11:8-10,13-14 KJVS
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. [9] By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: [10] For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. [13] These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. [14] For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
1 Corinthians 15:20 KJVS
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
Hebrews 11:8-10,13-14 KJVS
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. [9] By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: [10] For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. [13] These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. [14] For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Jesus Saves!
Active Member
Matthew 27:50-53 KJVS
Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. [51] And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; [52] And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, [53] And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. [51] And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; [52] And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, [53] And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
IMHO the answer to the OP is, No.
They all were as the following stated fifty days following the weekly Sabbath following the death of Christ.
Fifty three days after the death of Christ this was said concerning David, not the body of David but David, the man after God's own heart.
'Men, brethren! it is permitted to speak with freedom unto you concerning the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is among us unto this day; Acts 2:29
And later said;
for David, indeed, his own generation having served by the will of God, did fall asleep, and was added unto his fathers, and saw corruption, Acts 13:36
Now where did Jacob, one of the fathers of David believe he would go?
Gen 37:35 YLT and all his sons and all his daughters rise to comfort him, and he refuseth to comfort himself, and saith, 'For -- I go down mourning unto my son, to Sheol,' and his father weepeth for him.
Now Consider:
And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus? And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir. Gen 15:2,3
What is this man's name in Greek? How can that man be of the seed of Abraham? Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. When was Christ born?
Romans 4:16 διὰ τοῦτο ἐκ πίστεως (out of faith ) ἵνα κατὰ χάριν εἰς τὸ εἶναι βεβαίαν τὴν ἐπαγγελίαν παντὶ τῷ σπέρματι οὐ τῷ ἐκ τοῦ νόμου μόνον ἀλλὰ καὶ τῷ ἐκ πίστεως Ἀβραάμ (the one out of faith of Abraham) ὅς ἐστιν πατὴρ πάντων ἡμῶν
When Eliezer of Damascus died, Lazarus, die in the bosom of the Abraham? Would he become an heir through the seed, of Abraham, Christ, thus becoming a seed of Abraham?
When will he become an inheritor?????
They all were as the following stated fifty days following the weekly Sabbath following the death of Christ.
Fifty three days after the death of Christ this was said concerning David, not the body of David but David, the man after God's own heart.
'Men, brethren! it is permitted to speak with freedom unto you concerning the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is among us unto this day; Acts 2:29
And later said;
for David, indeed, his own generation having served by the will of God, did fall asleep, and was added unto his fathers, and saw corruption, Acts 13:36
Now where did Jacob, one of the fathers of David believe he would go?
Gen 37:35 YLT and all his sons and all his daughters rise to comfort him, and he refuseth to comfort himself, and saith, 'For -- I go down mourning unto my son, to Sheol,' and his father weepeth for him.
Now Consider:
And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus? And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir. Gen 15:2,3
What is this man's name in Greek? How can that man be of the seed of Abraham? Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. When was Christ born?
Romans 4:16 διὰ τοῦτο ἐκ πίστεως (out of faith ) ἵνα κατὰ χάριν εἰς τὸ εἶναι βεβαίαν τὴν ἐπαγγελίαν παντὶ τῷ σπέρματι οὐ τῷ ἐκ τοῦ νόμου μόνον ἀλλὰ καὶ τῷ ἐκ πίστεως Ἀβραάμ (the one out of faith of Abraham) ὅς ἐστιν πατὴρ πάντων ἡμῶν
When Eliezer of Damascus died, Lazarus, die in the bosom of the Abraham? Would he become an heir through the seed, of Abraham, Christ, thus becoming a seed of Abraham?
When will he become an inheritor?????
KenH
Well-Known Member
Sounds like you do advocate for a "holding cell", or as the Catholics call it, "Limbo of the Patriarchs".
I don't think that the Old Testament saints were placed some kind of "limbo" for hundreds, even thousands of years. Those who have Christ as the Lord their Righteousness were never placed in some location where they did not receive the blessings of salvation.
Did anyone say "Abraham's bosom" was a comfortable holding cell for the OT Saints?
Luke16:22 (NASB)
“Now it happened that the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to [fn]Abraham’s arms; and the rich man also died and was buried.
Footnote: Literally Abraham's bosom; or lap; ancient Jewish terminology for a place for the righteous dead.
Luke16:22 (NASB)
“Now it happened that the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to [fn]Abraham’s arms; and the rich man also died and was buried.
Footnote: Literally Abraham's bosom; or lap; ancient Jewish terminology for a place for the righteous dead.
Bosom of Abraham - Wikipedia
Bosom of Abraham" refers to the place of comfort in the biblical Sheol (or Hades in the Greek Septuagint version of the Hebrew scriptures from around 200 BC, and therefore so described in the New Testament)[1] where the righteous dead abided prior to Jesus’ resurrection.
Bosom of Abraham" refers to the place of comfort in the biblical Sheol (or Hades in the Greek Septuagint version of the Hebrew scriptures from around 200 BC, and therefore so described in the New Testament)[1] where the righteous dead abided prior to Jesus’ resurrection.
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Since I do not know how long, in those three "days" it was between when Jesus died and when Jesus and the thief were in paradise (Luke 23:43) I think resurrection covers the question. It is possible Christ's spiritual travel to paradise (3d heaven) and his bodily ascension are two separate events.
What do you call his travel to paradise on the day he died?
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Interesting. I re-read Hebrews 11-12, which speaks of the OT Saints as a “cloud of witnesses” but also says there is something they had not achieved prior to Christ and were longing for.
I had always believed this referred to their faith in God’s promise of a Messiah which they didn’t see in their lifetimes, but longed to see.
I could understand if someone thought it referred to heaven, which they didn’t see until after Christ’s sacrifice was completed and His righteousness could be applied to them.
I must ponder on this.
peace to you
37818
Well-Known Member
When Jesus gave up His Spirit, it was the late afternoon before sunset. The 15th of Nissan. His body was taken from the cross after sunset. He was risen from the dead early the morning of the 18th before the women arrived.
Late in the day,,the 15th.
Placed in the tomb early the first of the night of the 16th.
In the tomb all the 17th.
In the tomb the night of the 18th til morning, that being the third day.
In the tomb, night-day.
Night-day.
Night, resurrected counted as the third day.
37818
Well-Known Member
But Luke 16:19-31 is not by the word of God called a parable.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
REFERENCE on Old Testament folks Saved
the same as in The New Testament:
adapted from; His By Grace--"John Gill: A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity"-Doctrinal Book 4, Chapter 1
1e. In the blessings of
The Eternal Covenant in God's Plan of Salvation;
they are the same under both administrations
(The Old and New Testament).
Salvation and redemption by Christ is the great blessing held forth and enjoyed under the one as under the other, #2Sa 23:5 Heb 9:15.
Justification by the righteousness of Christ, which the Old Testament church had knowledge of, and faith in, as well as the new, #Isa 45:24,25 Ro 3:21-23.
Forgiveness of sin through faith in Christ, all the prophets bore witness to; and the saints of old, as now, had as comfortable an application of it, #Ps 32:1,5 Isa 43:25 Mic 7:18 Ac 10:43.
Regeneration, spiritual circumcision, and sanctification were what men were made partakers of under the first, as under the second administration of the covenant, #De 30:6 Php 3:3.
Eternal life was made known in the writings of the Old Testament, as well as in those of the New; and was believed, looked for, and expected by the saints of the former, as of the latter dispensation, #Joh 5:39 Heb 11:10,16 Job 19:26,27.
In a word, they and we eat the same spiritual meat, and drink the same spiritual drink, for they drank of that Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ, #1Co 10:3,4.
the same as in The New Testament:
adapted from; His By Grace--"John Gill: A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity"-Doctrinal Book 4, Chapter 1
1e. In the blessings of
The Eternal Covenant in God's Plan of Salvation;
they are the same under both administrations
(The Old and New Testament).
Salvation and redemption by Christ is the great blessing held forth and enjoyed under the one as under the other, #2Sa 23:5 Heb 9:15.
Justification by the righteousness of Christ, which the Old Testament church had knowledge of, and faith in, as well as the new, #Isa 45:24,25 Ro 3:21-23.
Forgiveness of sin through faith in Christ, all the prophets bore witness to; and the saints of old, as now, had as comfortable an application of it, #Ps 32:1,5 Isa 43:25 Mic 7:18 Ac 10:43.
Regeneration, spiritual circumcision, and sanctification were what men were made partakers of under the first, as under the second administration of the covenant, #De 30:6 Php 3:3.
Eternal life was made known in the writings of the Old Testament, as well as in those of the New; and was believed, looked for, and expected by the saints of the former, as of the latter dispensation, #Joh 5:39 Heb 11:10,16 Job 19:26,27.
In a word, they and we eat the same spiritual meat, and drink the same spiritual drink, for they drank of that Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ, #1Co 10:3,4.