Were The Apostles Totally Depraved?

Glen,

I'm confused. Are you arguing that the hardened ones refered to in this passage were also elect? Is that what you are saying?

Also, where in Romans does it say that all God has hardened he also has elected to salvation?

Glen, are you just pulling this stuff out of the air or is this a real defense of your position against such arguments?

 

1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 "Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life"? F52 4 But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." F53 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. 7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written: "God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day."

Glen, notice in this passage that God separates those who are elect from those who are hardened. You wrote: "But since totally depravity is an inborn condition could not the same Israel that was hardened also be of the elect?" You seem to be lumping the elect and the hardened into one group despite the fact that Paul is quite clear in distinguishing between those who are elect and the rest who are hardened.

If you couple that with what Paul says later in the same chapter your theory falls apart.

13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.

Notice it says, "Save SOME of them." I thought you said that they were all elect and going to be save? Paul says some of them might be saved after being provoked by jealousy. Could you explain???

 

No, it doesn't answer my question.

Concerning Acts 28 you implied that those who were hardened were the elect. Am I correct?

You then pointed to Romans 9-11 as proof of that statement stating that they all were elect.

I showed you in Romans 11 where Paul specifically and clearly shows that those who are hardened are not the elect and that those who are hardened might also be provoked to jealousy and be saved. You haven't dealt with that yet. No one has.

Please explain to me why the elect would be hardened and where in scripture that idea is supported. Also explain why Paul would say of the elect that they "might be provoked to jealosy and be saved." What does jealousy have to do with effectual calling and unconditional election?

Thanks.

 

If they were not being saved eternally, how is one saved temporarily?

You have the burden of proof here.

 

I am not a PB as such, but IMHO and understanding of Temporal and Eternal salvation, temporal is a deliverance from the evils of the present world and this a result from obedience to the commands and doctrines of God in the Gospel. Eternal salvation is always by his grace through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ and is always revealed internally to the individual. (Gal. 4.6).

While I agree substantively with these statements I should add that I believe even temporal deliverance is worked according to the Grace of God and is not therefore conditional but at the same time I agree that this means is taught to the believer in such a way that it is clear when and where departure from the Will of God is known to the individual. (Abraham lied concerning Sarah being his wife; did this cause difficulty with his eternal salvation or his temporal deliverance?).

I know what I believe.

How does the Bible say it? Jer. 24

God Bless
Bro. Dallas Eaton
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